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Really? Show me some links. I don't recall any narrative of substance that is saying Duncan won because of Pop. Quite the contrary, Pop himself has always given Duncan credit for Pops own success.
well, for that matter, there are all kinds of narratives out there about the spurs: boring, over and done with, system instead of talent, never a dynasty, no longer a contender...
Really? Show me some links. I don't recall any narrative of substance that is saying Duncan won because of Pop. Quite the contrary, Pop himself has always given Duncan credit for Pops own success.
My narrative? I guess that's why even Stephen Kobe's lover Smith calls Shaq "the most dominat force in NBA history"
Just me? In 2009 many fans here were disappointed that ESPN chose Lebron and Shaq over Duncan as all-time picks.
https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=126748
Like it or not, media created a narrative around Pop and his strong influence on his players, making them "his products", boring products, that overshadow their legacies.
The only place where you might see those opinions expressed is on websites where amateur contrarians, trolls, and team rivals post. The opinion I hear most is that Duncan would've won anywhere and I've never heard a single coach, scout, or serious analyst say otherwise.
Again, that is just the opinion of Smith and other ESPN writers. That doesn't speak to where other "analysts," writers and fans see Duncan as an all - time great.
And, physically speaking Shaq (with Chamberlain) was one of the most imposing players ever.
Duncan was dominant but in an entirely different way. I think most rational people realize that difference and also where Pop's coaching contributed.
see, there's your narrative again.
Anytime a ten year old poll or stupid talking head opinion doesn't go your way, you have to attribute it to Pop.
It doesn't work that way.
Too many Pop haters try to create a narrative that never existed. Nobody outside of ST said that Duncan won because of Pop
yeah, who actually does that?
Who is constantly ting on Duncan specifically?
Give explicit non YouTube examples.
I realize you're two of the biggest apologists on the forum, but you can't be serious? It's everywhere, all the time. Consume virtually any national Spurs related content and you'll see an abundance of it.
The most recent example is the 30 teams in the 30 days article, where Powell has the audacity to call him "the most important figure in club history". As a fan, I find it disgusting, embarrassing and offensive. I can only imagine being on the short list of greatest players of all time and having to deal with it.
THE AUDACITY!
You asked for an example, I give you one, then you resort to ad homenim to try to distract from the fact that it's true.
THE AUDACITY!
A little blurb about the season?
I mean , people will say Red Auerbach is the most important figure in Boston's history. Does that automatically mean Bill Russell is and downgraded as a player? No, it does not.
Do you understand?
Ah, so now it's the size of them that matters. What'll it be next?
A little blurb about the season?
I mean , people will say Red Auerbach is the most important figure in Boston's history. Does that automatically mean Bill Russell is and downgraded as a player? No, it does not.
Do you understand?
This is a sport where the majority of the credit goes to the best player, except in this case. I'm convinced it played a significant part in S bag's wanting out, because he knew his profile would never be commensurate with his caliber of play here.
Do you understand?
Last edited by TD 21; 09-22-2019 at 06:46 PM.
Not my fault your example was weak.
This is a sport where the majority of the credit goes to the best player, except in this case.
Yes, I understand you're delusional. Players move from small markets to larger markets all the time. There are plenty of examples of this. He just went about it in a particularly y manner.I'm convinced it played a significant part in S bag's wanting out, because he knew his profile would never be commensurate with his caliber of play here.
Do you understand?
It wouldn't matter what the example was or how many examples were given, you'd still play this game in an attempt to defend your god.Not my fault your example was weak.
Yes, I understand you're delusional. Players move from small markets to larger markets all the time. There are plenty of examples of this. He just went about it in a particularly y manner.
No, you didn't. You just spouted it without a source and attempted to pass it off as fact.
Says the guy who acts like others take this too seriously, while spending probably more time on a message board of it than anyone. Ah, but save for Durant, they don't leave teams top few teams in the league, do they?
No, you didn't. You just spouted it without a source and attempted to pass it off as fact.So no one in history could ever consider Red to be the most important figure in Celtics history?
OK.
If you want me to find a guy saying Red was a most important figure to basketball, above even any given team, I'll happily do that.
Do you want me to do that?
Says the guy who acts like others take this too seriously, while spending probably more time on a message board of it than anyone. Ah, but save for Durant, they don't leave teams top few teams in the league, do they?
Duncan is an heterosexual male. Biggest lie ever told about him.
Who said I hate him and when did I say I have proof or that it was the sole reason S bag left?
OK.
If you want me to find a guy saying Red was a most important figure to basketball, above even any given team, I'll happily do that.
Do you want me to do that?
I don't care, but you come off as a hypocrite when you accuse others of not providing a source to back up their claim, then proceed to do the same.
I meant in this era. Obviously there are others throughout history, like Abdul-Jabbar. But it's a rarity nowadays considering the insecurity these divas have about rings and their "legacy".
You love him and think it was only a small factor.
Do you want a source or not?I don't care, but you come off as a hypocrite when you accuse others of not providing a source to back up their claim, then proceed to do the same.
Sounds like you would rather just not talk about it anymore.
I meant in this era. Obviously there are others throughout history, like Abdul-Jabbar. But it's a rarity nowadays considering the insecurity these divas have about rings and their "legacy".
NOBODY DOES THIS EXCEPT FOR ALL THESE GUYS WHO DID IT
Again, great coaches can't win without great talent. And great talent can't win without good/great coaching.
Anyone with half a brain (including Pop) knows that Duncan was the focal point, catalyst and whatever else term you'd like to use for the Spurs' success.
He's the one on the all - time top 10 least (which is drawing straws when you get to the talent level), he's the one with the Finals MVP's, MVP's, All - NBA, All - Defense honors and countless records in the league's/Spurs' books.
Yes, Pop and R.C. are also great in a lot ways (criminally underrated on here) but everything began and (in a sense) ended with Duncan.
But, since you are always whining and finding a reason to knowing that within yourself isn't enough. You need some pointless validation that Duncan himself never cared for.
Anyway, it'll be nice if they do go in the HOF together since it means a lot to Pop. And he/R.C. knows where their bread was buttered for nearly 20 years.
These last two seasons and World Cup are examples of why coaches, even an all-time great like Pop, need great talent to succeed. The margin for error dramatically decreased without an all-time great like Duncan as the linchpin.
, but roster construction (that word y'all ed about ad naseum last season) and coaching also play a factor.
Last edited by J_Paco; 09-23-2019 at 04:44 AM.
Don't understand what's so complicated about this.. the guy on the video pretty much nailed it right off the bat-
-Pop is the goat coach
-neither pop nor Tony nor Manu (nor Timmy for that matter but he came closest of the 4) were consistently at their best throughout the spurs ridiculously long run
- certain players/ teams don't get the same criticisms, and that is almost entirely due to media perception, market size, popularity, ie non basketball related bull
Great summary of the video.
His point about Pop was that Pop's system often gets overhyped, since it never really reached fruition until around 2011, when Tim's wheels started falling off. Prior to that, Tim was essentially the system, especially from 1999-2004. The offense from 1998-2004 was slow, plodding, and predictable, only working because of Tim's greatness.
Yeah offensively that is absolutely true, but coaching is more than just offense, and before 2011 pop had other successes, beyond just feeding Duncan- the corner 3/ spacing, emphasis on defensive rebounding, baseline /middle defensive principles, ego/ locker room mangement, trusting internationals.. didn't always work and not the ONLY coach to do that stuff but at least in the period I most watched - 2003-2015- he was hands down the best coach in the league, even with small ball in 06
I just call it like I see it. But thank you for telling me what my opinion of something is.You love him and think it was only a small factor.
Do you want a source or not?
Sounds like you would rather just not talk about it anymore.
NOBODY DOES THIS EXCEPT FOR ALL THESE GUYS WHO DID IT
Source, no source, I made my point.
I made the mistake of thinking you had common sense. S bag is actually in a class all his own, because Durant did it under the misguided notion that his career would be validated by winning a championship(s) at any cost.
That's the point. It's not that he sucks or I hate him, it's that he's reliant on the one thing all other coaches are, only he's often not treated as such and it's insulting not only to the superstars and stars he's been fortunate to coach previously, but even the current ones. Don't be a fool, great talent can absolutely win without great coaching.
Sure, he's on all the top 10 all time lists, but he still receives plenty of backhanded compliments and faint praise for his actual ability. I don't need validation and as I said, it's not limited to just Duncan; it's every superstar and star of his tenure. Look at how S bag's profile rocketed the minute he got out. I also wouldn't assume it doesn't bother these players because none have said so publicly, when that's clearly not in any of their nature.
So you want to drop it.
I made my point and you accept it, source or no source because you know there is a source.
You made the mistake of undermining your own example immediately and leaving it open to more.I made the mistake of thinking you had common sense. S bag is actually in a class all his own, because Durant did it under the misguided notion that his career would be validated by winning a championship(s) at any cost.
"that's the system, he doing work coz of the system"
that's a fair sample of how people tend to underrate players because of Pop and the spurs culture in general.
also their stats suffer playing in San Antonio somewhat, at least the stars
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