NBA: Official 2019-20 NBA Season Thread

[FrostKing]

Kareem and Jordan. I'll listen to Bill. That is it.

[Dirks_Finale]

I don't buy into the narrative that just because a guy isn't bombing away from 3 he is a lumbering oaf and that there's this huge difference in talent. There is a difference, but I don't think it's as profound as Lebron's fans think it is. The game is played differently do to rule changes designed to elevate scores and raise ticket and merchandising prices. And it's worked.

And do you really want to have that conversation about the compe ion Lebron faced all those years in the LEASTern conference? Really? Danny Granger led Pacers. One star Chicago Bulls in the 2011 ECF vs Lebron's super team. The mighty and fearful Demar Derozan led Raptors?

hm

whats tougher to beat

a team that has less talent than yours, but has a lumbering oaf or two who will jump into you from time to time to try to get in your head

or

teams loaded with star talent, depth, and is flat out better overall than your own team that you keep having to overcome

im going to go out on the limb and say the latter is going to be tougher to beat, which is what lebron has consistently faced through his entire career, while jordan has mostly faced the former after his first 4-5 years in the league, after which he pretty much was never in a series that they werent favored to win and had to overcome major odds.

[Dirks_Finale]

I think Wilt is probably in the conversation. I have just never seen him play so I don't know.

Kareem and Jordan. I'll listen to Bill. That is it.

[FrostKing]

I think Wilt is probably in the conversation. I have just never seen him play so I don't know.

Yes. Bill vs Wilt

I think there are only a couple GOATS. Kareem and Jordan revolutionized the sport the most. Both on dominant college teams. Won les. Revolutionary shots - sky hook vs fadeaway. These are my two GOATS.

[Neo.]

Ummm...we both know Lebron has never even come close to 37ppg.

he also never took anywhere close to 34 shots per game

And what I am saying is, if Jordan is so incredibly good at his craft of midrange and getting to the basket that he could avg 37 without a 3 point shot...had he put in that kind of dedication on the 3 ball and took 12 per game like this guys do now, that bumps his avg up to over 40 by itself, without any additional shots needed.

and what im saying is that any elite scorer that takes 35-45 shots a game is capable of putting up 35-45 ppg

I'm glad you acknowledge that Lebron is a perpetual flopper. Which is hilarious to watch considering the man's size.

funny you say that considering your heros in the bad boys pistons were the team who made flopping a commonplace thing to begin with, in particular laimbeer and rodman

im no fan of flopping at all, but its not hard to see that its certainly a useful tool that can completely change a game if used right, which lebron has done plenty of times, just the same as dozens of other players over the past 30 years. not sure why its a big issue when lebron does it, its all for the same reasons

And you are all over the place talking about the playoffs in your last entry. I am obviously referring to the regular season. But what happens in the regular season carries over into the playoffs. Play scrubs during the regular season as they load manage, means less minutes which can also equate to less injuries. Do you recall Manu breaking his arm in the last game of the regular season in 2011? Ask these Spurs fans if it effected the Spurs in the playoffs. Doesn't happen if 'load management' is occurring on either side. And that just didn't exist back then. 3 games in 5 nights means you play 3 games in 5 nights.

so basically you are knocking modern players for using better strategy to have a better chance of winning in the playoffs? you seem to think its smarter to play extra minutes and take more of a beating in meaningless games just to prove how manly you are. again, astounding logic

[Neo.]

I don't buy into the narrative that just because a guy isn't bombing away from 3 he is a lumbering oaf and that there's this huge difference in talent.

who said that was the criteria? you clearly missed the point.

the teams that gave mike the most trouble were teams like the pistons, knicks and pacers. lets not act like any of those teams were in the same stratosphere of talent as the spurs and warriors that lebron had to face.

There is a difference, but I don't think it's as profound as Lebron's fans think it is. The game is played differently do to rule changes designed to elevate scores and raise ticket and merchandising prices. And it's worked.

And do you really want to have that conversation about the compe ion Lebron faced all those years in the LEASTern conference? Really? Danny Granger led Pacers. One star Chicago Bulls in the 2011 ECF vs Lebron's super team. The mighty and fearful Demar Derozan led Raptors?

then i suppose we should talk about the almighty craig ehlo and mark price, or the godly duo of steve smith and glen rice. how about the young webber and howard duo? steve smith and laettener? van horn and kittles? rice and mason? we can do this all day. mike had plenty of weak teams he faced in his runs as well. perks of being a top seed every year, same as lebron.

[Dirks_Finale]

I don't think any elite scorer could average that much and still be THAT efficient and still play GREAT defense.

In 1988, Jordan averaged 35 ppg on a ridiculous .535 from the floor AND he won the defensive player of the year award. When has Lebron ever had a season that great that includes DPOY? It's just never happened. There's no evidence for the premise... Look at the elite scorers of today . James Harden, for example, 43% and zero defense. Defense is physically taxing and that's why these guys refuse to engage. It will effect their numbers.

Yeah, load management is weak sauce. You the fan get robbed when you buy that ticket 2 months before the game expecting to see Kawhi and instead get to see a 3rd rate scrub in his place. Try explaining load management to your disappointed children as you wolf down those 20$ nachos...Actually, I think Popovich should be forced to do all the explaining on this since he really started all this.

he also never took anywhere close to 34 shots per game



and what im saying is that any elite scorer that takes 35-45 shots a game is capable of putting up 35-45 ppg



funny you say that considering your heros in the bad boys pistons were the team who made flopping a commonplace thing to begin with, in particular laimbeer and rodman

im no fan of flopping at all, but its not hard to see that its certainly a useful tool that can completely change a game if used right, which lebron has done plenty of times, just the same as dozens of other players over the past 30 years. not sure why its a big issue when lebron does it, its all for the same reasons



so basically you are knocking modern players for using better strategy to have a better chance of winning in the playoffs? you seem to think its smarter to play extra minutes and take more of a beating in meaningless games just to prove how manly you are. again, astounding logic

[Dirks_Finale]

As I've previously stated, both eras have had their fair share of weakness.

But come on, Lebron basically had a free pass to the Finals every year. I am a firm believer the Mavs beat Miami despite the refs in 2006 if we did not have the grueling 7 game series with the Spurs. That is something Lebron convienently avoided. He didn't even have to break a sweat agaisnt the Raptors and Derozan. Goes into the Finals evey year not having to deal with nagging injuries. How nice.

who said that was the criteria? you clearly missed the point.

the teams that gave mike the most trouble were teams like the pistons, knicks and pacers. lets not act like any of those teams were in the same stratosphere of talent as the spurs and warriors that lebron had to face.

There is a difference, but I don't think it's as profound as Lebron's fans think it is. The game is played differently do to rule changes designed to elevate scores and raise ticket and merchandising prices. And it's worked.



then i suppose we should talk about the almighty craig ehlo and mark price, or the godly duo of steve smith and glen rice. how about the young webber and howard duo? steve smith and laettener? van horn and kittles? rice and mason? we can do this all day. mike had plenty of weak teams he faced in his runs as well. perks of being a top seed every year, same as lebron.

[Neo.]

I don't think any elite scorer could average that much and still be THAT efficient and still play GREAT defense.

he really wasnt all that efficient. eFG of 48% and a 2pt% of 49%, not really a standout figure. kobes best scoring season of 35ppg he had an eFG of 49%, shooting 48% on 2s. when harden averaged 36 he had an eFG of 54% shooting 53% on 2s. and no one would really confuse kobe or harden those years as being particularly efficient scorers. that just goes to show he wasnt "THAT" efficient. also it was one of his least stellar defensive years in terms of DRTG, DBPM, and DWS, so obviously he also didn't play "GREAT" defense while taking such a massive scoring load.

In 1988, Jordan averaged 35 ppg on a ridiculous .535 from the floor AND he won the defensive player of the year award. When has Lebron ever had a season that great that includes DPOY? It's just never happened. There's no evidence for the premise... Look at the elite scorers of today . James Harden, for example, 43% and zero defense. Defense is physically taxing and that's why these guys refuse to engage. It will effect their numbers.

okay, and your point is? beside once again bringing out completely left of field thoughts to prop up jordan when no one was even questioning anything about him whatsoever

Yeah, load management is weak sauce. You the fan get robbed when you buy that ticket 2 months before the game expecting to see Kawhi and instead get to see a 3rd rate scrub in his place. Try explaining load management to your disappointed children as you wolf down those 20$ nachos...Actually, I think Popovich should be forced to do all the explaining on this since he really started all this.

im no fan of load management either. in terms of the entertainment side of the business, yes its a terrible approach. but in terms of winning championships, its without question a brilliant strategy.

wanna know who to blame for load management and obsession over championships? mike and his fans. you idiots are the one who wanted to make championships an individual achievement and the end-all be-all indicator of greatness, instead of a team award, and unfortunately it is the only way to shut up the critics

im no fan of players falling into that narrative either, but it is what it is. its all become a race for most championships to validate ones greatness, so i cant knock lebron or kd for switching teams, or kobe for demanding to be traded away, when mike started it all with his endless whining, demands, and threats to retire. i really dont know why mike fans get so upset over this, when hes the one who started it all tbqhfwiw

[Neo.]

As I've previously stated, both eras have had their fair share of weakness.

i agree. i just dont like when mike-stans want to point out all the weaknesses of the current era, but not acknowledge the weaknesses of the 80s and 90s

But come on, Lebron basically had a free pass to the Finals every year.

completely untrue. boston was still very good his first couple years in miami, and indy with PG, Hill, Granger and Hibbert was a very solid team. atlanta had some nice balanced squads with Horford, Teague, Korver and Milsap and won 60 games, and the bulls had a team that won over 60 games starring a league MVP. dismiss them all you want, but toronto probably makes the finals 2-3 times if lebron isnt in their way, as they too had a very solid, well built team (even if DeRozen is a choker, he still was a very good player). the cavs were simply a horrible matchup for them, because all of their strengths were all of torontos weaknesses.

it wasnt near the cakewalk that everyone makes it out to be. besides he still had to repeatedly play against a pair of dynasties in the finals in the spurs and warriors, both teams being better than any team mike ever faced in the playoffs aside from maybe the celtics his first few seasons.

I am a firm believer the Mavs beat Miami despite the refs in 2006 if we did not have the grueling 7 game series with the Spurs.

as a mavs fan i wholeheartedly disagree that the spurs series wore them out. they went into that series as healthy as can be. they didnt lose because they were tired or hurt. they lost because they were mentally weaker than miami.

That is something Lebron convienently avoided. He didn't even have to break a sweat agaisnt the Raptors and Derozan. Goes into the Finals evey year not having to deal with nagging injuries. How nice.

also, how do you know he didnt deal with nagging injuries? and if he didnt, then how do you know its solely because of his level of compe ion he faced?

did mike have to battle through nagging injuries every single year he went to the finals?

[lefty]

10 burner accounts currently agreeing with him.

damn

[Dirks_Finale]

Jordan was the best defender in the league that year and carried the scoring load while averaging a ridiculous 35 ppg. He won that award in the era in which big men always typically took home the trophy. Nice way to spin the fact that Lebron never accomplished that feat. Good defender, and yes taller, but not as lockdown as Jordan was.

And in regards to les being the end-all-be-all, I think it's like that in any sport. Hardware rules. You don't view Peyton Manning the same way you view Tom Brady. Marino was better than both of them, imo, but will never be viewed as such without rings.

he really wasnt all that efficient. eFG of 48% and a 2pt% of 49%, not really a standout figure. kobes best scoring season of 35ppg he had an eFG of 49%, shooting 48% on 2s. when harden averaged 36 he had an eFG of 54% shooting 53% on 2s. and no one would really confuse kobe or harden those years as being particularly efficient scorers. that just goes to show he wasnt "THAT" efficient. also it was one of his least stellar defensive years in terms of DRTG, DBPM, and DWS, so obviously he also didn't play "GREAT" defense while taking such a massive scoring load.



okay, and your point is? beside once again bringing out completely left of field thoughts to prop up jordan when no one was even questioning anything about him whatsoever



im no fan of load management either. in terms of the entertainment side of the business, yes its a terrible approach. but in terms of winning championships, its without question a brilliant strategy.

wanna know who to blame for load management and obsession over championships? mike and his fans. you idiots are the one who wanted to make championships an individual achievement and the end-all be-all indicator of greatness, instead of a team award, and unfortunately it is the only way to shut up the critics

im no fan of players falling into that narrative either, but it is what it is. its all become a race for most championships to validate ones greatness, so i cant knock lebron or kd for switching teams, or kobe for demanding to be traded away, when mike started it all with his endless whining, demands, and threats to retire. i really dont know why mike fans get so upset over this, when hes the one who started it all tbqhfwiw

[Dirks_Finale]

Thanks for reminding me of the Hawks. Atlanta had zero stars and managed to win 60 games. That tells you just how weak the eastern conference was. Lebron beat Boston, finally, when they were running on fumes. So I'll give him some credit there. They were still fairly good at that point.

And I keep reading on here how much Jordan's finals opponents supposedly sucked. But it's really revisionist history because I can clearly recall all the so called experts declaring that the Bulls had no chance vs Magic and the Lakers who more experienced, etc. Then they lose GM1 at home and they really piled on about how great the Lakers were.

I think Seattle in 96 is highly underrated. They just faced a extraordinary team in the finals. You could say the same about the Suns in 93. Lebron likely loses to both those teams. If I were a betting person, I would not bet on Lebron to beat either of them, given his Final's record. We know if it were close and came down to free throws, Lebron is Lonzo Ball from the line in crunch time.

I don't know for certain who had what injuries. But when you are playing in a G-league conference and sweeping through your opponents, not being tested it certainly helps your cause.

i agree. i just dont like when mike-stans want to point out all the weaknesses of the current era, but not acknowledge the weaknesses of the 80s and 90s



completely untrue. boston was still very good his first couple years in miami, and indy with PG, Hill, Granger and Hibbert was a very solid team. atlanta had some nice balanced squads with Horford, Teague, Korver and Milsap and won 60 games, and the bulls had a team that won over 60 games starring a league MVP. dismiss them all you want, but toronto probably makes the finals 2-3 times if lebron isnt in their way, as they too had a very solid, well built team (even if DeRozen is a choker, he still was a very good player). the cavs were simply a horrible matchup for them, because all of their strengths were all of torontos weaknesses.

it wasnt near the cakewalk that everyone makes it out to be. besides he still had to repeatedly play against a pair of dynasties in the finals in the spurs and warriors, both teams being better than any team mike ever faced in the playoffs aside from maybe the celtics his first few seasons.



as a mavs fan i wholeheartedly disagree that the spurs series wore them out. they went into that series as healthy as can be. they didnt lose because they were tired or hurt. they lost because they were mentally weaker than miami.



also, how do you know he didnt deal with nagging injuries? and if he didnt, then how do you know its solely because of his level of compe ion he faced?

did mike have to battle through nagging injuries every single year he went to the finals?

[Dirks_Finale]

https://247sports.com/Article/Lakers...ter-123699259/

[FrostKing]

As I've previously stated, both eras have had their fair share of weakness.

But come on, Lebron basically had a free pass to the Finals every year. I am a firm believer the Mavs beat Miami despite the refs in 2006 if we did not have the grueling 7 game series with the Spurs. That is something Lebron convienently avoided. He didn't even have to break a sweat agaisnt the Raptors and Derozan. Goes into the Finals evey year not having to deal with nagging injuries. How nice.

I will go even as far as to say Lebron played as good/better teams in the Finals. On the flip side the East was King in the 90s.

Jordan's averages fell against the Pistons but he did not have a Mavericks or Orlando moment. Jordan was a standard.

[Dirks_Finale]

2007 is a Finals loss I don't even really count against him because he had no business being there in the 1st place. Detroit was the better team. Lebron looked Jordan-esque in that series. So I started expecting that of him.

2011 Mavs are underrated. But still one star on that team vs a superteam. Miami the heavy favorites. And Lebron got outscored in that 6 game series by a role player in Jet Terry. Something that wouldn't happen to Jordan even at age 50.

2012 Baby Thunder, not great. Not ready.

2013 and 2014 Spurs were tough. Nice mixture of vets and youth. But Lebron had formed a superteam. And he almost lost both series.

2015 Warriors. Not great yet but Lebron had a banged up roster to work with. Understandable loss.

2016 Warriors. 73 wins don't mean a thing without the ring lol. Lebron's best accomplishment. Without it, even his most hardcore fans can't put him in the GOAT conversation.

2017 and 2018 Warriors. Probably better than any Bull's Finals opponents. But if he is a 'king' they should have also won one of those series. I think they were healthier in 2017.

3-6 in the Finals. If he were 5-4 against that compe ion, I would be more likely to mention him as a close 2nd to Jordan. As it stands now, I'll take Bird, Kobe and Kareem over him. But no shame being in that great class.

I will go even as far as to say Lebron played as good/better teams in the Finals. On the flip side the East was King in the 90s.

Jordan's averages fell against the Pistons but he did not have a Mavericks or Orlando moment. Jordan was a standard.

[FrostKing]

Spur fan is impressed

[Spurtacular]

https://soccer.nbcsports.com/2020/04...r-june-return/

Premier League targeting a June return.

[FrostKing]

Lewandowski

[lefty]

https://soccer.nbcsports.com/2020/04...r-june-return/

Premier League targeting a June return.

Y tho

It’s still not safe and the le is pretty much wrapped up for Liverpool

[lefty]

Lewandowski

Remember his 5 goals in like less than 10 minutes?
That was amazing

[Neo.]

Jordan was the best defender in the league that year and carried the scoring load while averaging a ridiculous 35 ppg. He won that award in the era in which big men always typically took home the trophy. Nice way to spin the fact that Lebron never accomplished that feat. Good defender, and yes taller, but not as lockdown as Jordan was.

i didnt spin anything, you once again keep bringing up any chance to hop on jordans nuts and nitpick at lebron, when that wasnt even the original part of our discussion yet you brought both of these things up and keep bringing it up in new ways.

half of the other crap you posted is re ed and subjective as usual, and i dont care to respond to it all because its just going to be the same stuff over and over. i never once said that lebron > mike. i dont believe lebron > mike. you keep coming at me as if i did, but i didnt.

even when you kept trying to make that the argument, my only issue has been the double standards most mike fans bring up.

if mike fans want to bring up "oh lebron had weak compe ion", well the truth is that mike had to deal with some weak compe ion at times as well. perks of getting high seeds.

"oh lebron was in the weaker conference". well, he still had to face the best opponent in the league every year and had to attempt to beat them, and usually in the finals his team was the underdog and he had to battle with two different dynasties, one of which people can make a good argument is the best team in NBA history (KD warriors). lebron usually had an uphill battle by time he got to the finals, while mikes team was usually the overwhelming favorite in his entire runs.

"oh mike would average 45 in todays era" woulda coulda shoulda. perhaps lebron could have averaged 45 in the 80s where he would have outweighed everyone by 50lbs instead of 30 lbs. we can do this all day. mike did the best he could in his time, and lebron is doing the best he can in his time. not only that, but they are completely different styles of players. lebron runs an offense, and helps make his teammates better. jordan looked mainly to score and when he would draw doubles, eventually learned to create easy buckets for others doing so. why does it always have to be a comparison?

"oh mike would never team up with other guys, he won THE RIGHT WAY!!!!1!1" well no instead he just begged for his team to sign or trade for more talent and threatened to retire if they didnt. he was no angel himself. plus he had a front office that knew how to operate. krause was a , but definitely did a good job of getting mike good supporting talent.


i dont care any more for this argument, because its not going anywhere anyways. mike is the greatest, no doubt about it. but lebron is exceptionally great too. unfortunately lebron is on the receiving end of many double standards.

[Dirks_Finale]

. mike is the greatest, no doubt about it. but lebron is exceptionally great too..

I've placed Lebron in the pantheon of great players like Kobe, Bird and Kareem. Not sure how that's really much different than what you have stated above.

[Neo.]

I've placed Lebron in the pantheon of great players like Kobe, Bird and Kareem. Not sure how that's really much different than what you have stated above.

i never said anything about lebrons greatness, but you are the one who continues to bring him up to compare him with mike, which has completely derailed the original discussion that magic was simply ahead of his time. typical of jordanstans tho tbh

[Spurtacular]

Y tho

It’s still not safe and the le is pretty much wrapped up for Liverpool

It's safe. Deprogram yourself, bro.

https://www. ute.com/video/WLXbKNZyNpHo/