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  1. #26
    Veteran NASpurs's Avatar
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    wow you finally realized what 50% of the forum has been saying since 1935....Such Genuis..
    Don’t agree with the tone but I do agree with the message. Forbes is a feel good, make a wish story but the Edgelord Society has known that Pop has him in the Matt Bonner role... you know...more minutes and/or starting for a team when he shouldn’t be more than a 8th/9th man.

  2. #27
    Veteran cd021's Avatar
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    Going up the eye test, he does kill momentum with his transition 3pt jacking.

    Its fine when it goes in but it's taking away opportunities to run offense and get players like Aldridge or Murray involved- which is important because of their inconsistent play.

  3. #28
    Don't stop believin' Dex's Avatar
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    Forbes starting last year was basically out of necessity due to Murray's injury. Even despite these on/off numbers, he surpassed expectations and performed admirably with the hand that was dealt to him.

    That said, he is not a starter. Now that the team is healthy, there is no reason for him to be in the starting lineup. I know Pop is clutching to "spacing" like a cornerstone, but Bryn's limitations are still becoming too much to ignore (especially being played next to DeMar who is also a sub-par defender and being forced to play out of position).

    I really wish I knew what the was going on with Carroll, because he seems like the easiest solution to the problem. Sure, he's a bit slow to play the three at his age, but he's still got more size than DeMar and can't be the defensive liability Forbes has proven to be. He also could provide some spacing and shooting while getting the Spurs back into a defensive-minded mentality instead of just letting Bryn try to beat opponents in a shootout.

  4. #29
    You have no idea UZER's Avatar
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    Mm hmm...but people still think replacing Pop wouldn’t help anything.

  5. #30
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    Excellent, eye-opening write-up. Thanks.

    I wish you had included a paragraph about Mills' numbers/impact on the team when he is NOT paired with Forbes for a more direct comparison.

  6. #31
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    We are undersized also with DeRozan at SF that is not his natural position.
    They are not drafting natural SF (Forbes, White, Loonie, Weatherspoon and Keldon ). All of them are Guards.
    Also we have Marco that sometimes play SF and Mills that are undersized too.

    Forbes is a good bench player but I think SA traded the wrong guy. I'm not a fan of Bertans but I think Forbes was the player to trade.

  7. #32
    Spurs Sage Russ's Avatar
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    Timvp has assembled an impressive case against Forbes but I'll push back a bit.

    Most teams, good or bad, start a guard who is weak on D. It's kind of like having a starting pitcher who can't hit -- when comparing such pitchers, you don't talk about which pitcher hits worse (who really cares) you talk about who is the better pitcher. That's what they're paid to do and that's their value.

    Forbes' value will be determined by his offensive performance -- especially on a team as desperate for three-point shooting as the Spurs. Take a look at Game 7 of the Denver series and then straight-face the claim that he hurts this team.

    And if you want to evaluate weak defensive guards within a team defense (like the Spurs'), I would suggest you start with looking at how often that guard is out of position. Forbes holds up fairly well under that standard. For example, in both of the clips in the article, Forbes was between his man an the basket. Small praise but at least better than Lonnie Walker who often wanders around close to half court like he's playing a one-man zone against the Jumbotron. (And with Walker's offensive potential, he shouldn't be evaluated only on his defense either.) In short, staying in front of your man doesn't break down a team defense nearly as badly as completely losing your man does.

    As far as attempting to extrapolate Forbes' defensive play by looking at team defense statistics when he's in, I think that's a reach. I'm not a fan of +/- analysis and such stats seem to be venturing dangerously into that territory. Believe your eyes -- Forbes seems to always hit a big three when the team most needs it, when the team is going bad. Those are statement shots that can affect the game much more than the same shot in a less critical situation.

    Pop has taken a lot of heat here lately during this losing streak, some of it deserved. But when it comes to evaluating defense, I'll defer to him every day of the week. Pop absolutely will not play anyone who misses defensive assignments and yet he starts Forbes.

    So is Forbes a defensive liability? Absolutely. Does he hurt the team as a starter? I think not.

  8. #33
    R.C. Deez Nuts. Mugen's Avatar
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    Wait til the FO pays/picks him over DWhite.

  9. #34
    R.C. Deez Nuts. Mugen's Avatar
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    Timvp has assembled an impressive case against Forbes but I'll push back a bit.

    Most teams, good or bad, start a guard who is weak on D. It's kind of like having a starting pitcher who can't hit -- when comparing such pitchers, you don't talk about which pitcher hits worse (who really cares) you talk about who is the better pitcher. That's what they're paid to do and that's their value.

    Forbes' value will be determined by his offensive performance -- especially on a team as desperate for three-point shooting as the Spurs. Take a look at Game 7 of the Denver series and then straight-face the claim that he hurts this team.

    And if you want to evaluate weak defensive guards within a team defense (like the Spurs'), I would suggest you start with looking at how often that guard is out of position. Forbes holds up fairly well under that standard. For example, in both of the clips in the article, Forbes was between his man an the basket. Small praise but at least better than Lonnie Walker who often wanders around close to half court like he's playing a one-man zone against the Jumbotron. (And with Walker's offensive potential, he shouldn't be evaluated only on his defense either.) In short, staying in front of your man doesn't break down a team defense nearly as badly as completely losing your man does.

    As far as attempting to extrapolate Forbes' defensive play by looking at team defense statistics when he's in, I think that's a reach. I'm not a fan of +/- analysis and such stats seem to be venturing dangerously into that territory. Believe your eyes -- Forbes seems to always hit a big three when the team most needs it, when the team is going bad. Those are statement shots that can affect the game much more than the same shot in a less critical situation.

    Pop has taken a lot of heat here lately during this losing streak, some of it deserved. But when it comes to evaluating defense, I'll defer to him every day of the week. Pop absolutely will not play anyone who misses defensive assignments and yet he starts Forbes.

    So is Forbes a defensive liability? Absolutely. Does he hurt the team as a starter? I think not.
    Oh man, that entire sentence. Wow.

    Russ - my man, sounds like you've been in a coma for about 5 years. I've got some bad news for ya.

  10. #35
    Veteran K...'s Avatar
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    Wait til the FO pays/picks him over DWhite.
    That's more about how Murray insta teased his way to into the starting pg role.

  11. #36
    R.C. Deez Nuts. Mugen's Avatar
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    That's more about how Murray insta teased his way to into the starting pg role.
    Except Dejounte/White can play with each other. The old man has just brainwashed the re half of the fanbase that they cant

  12. #37
    Spurs Sage Russ's Avatar
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    Oh man, that entire sentence. Wow.

    Russ - my man, sounds like you've been in a coma for about 5 years. I've got some bad news for ya.
    It's been kinda fun, man. (I love a cheap high.)

  13. #38
    R.C. Deez Nuts. Mugen's Avatar
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    It's been kinda fun, man. (I love a cheap high.)

  14. #39
    R.C. Deez Nuts. Mugen's Avatar
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    Can't wait for OP's next groundbreaking article: "Pop should play Dejounte and Derrick Together"

    Queue my one positive quote about Forbes amidst my sea of calling Forbes a trash player for the last 2.5 years

  15. #40
    Veteran NASpurs's Avatar
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    Can't wait for OP's next groundbreaking article: "Pop should play Dejounte and Derrick Together"

    Queue my one positive quote about Forbes amidst my sea of calling Forbes a trash player for the last 2.5 years
    I feel next year there’s going to be a similar article for Trey Lyles.

  16. #41
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    2021 - “DeMar DeRozan: Career Loser? The numbers say so.”

  17. #42
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    Some of us were already stating that dwarves should not be on the court under any cir stances, especially as starter, and no such alarming statistics were needed to see this.

  18. #43
    You Are Not Worthy ZeusWillJudge's Avatar
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    I can see the 4 years/60 million contract extension coming soon.
    One of my big fears for what's left of this team. Like a slow motion train wreck.

  19. #44
    Veteran Floyd Pacquiao's Avatar
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    2021 - “DeMar DeRozan: Career Loser? The numbers say so.”
    cause changing the rotation chhanges everything we just gotta stick with it and coach them up. They played well last year

  20. #45
    half man half amazing
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    What’s funny was all the sniffers saying trading him was the right move or that he was done as a player yet he looked just fine on the Raptors and now the Lakers. You know teams that run actual systems and not inefficient 90s ball/LMA-Demar iso ball.
    That was the party of the trade that infuriated me the most. Not only did they trade away kawhi for an empty stats scrub, they have away Danny and his very affordable and expiring contract too, rather that Gasol or Mills. An absolute fleecing and people on here were cheering it.

    Something happened to this front office. It used to be smart, but now it's consistently outsmarted.

  21. #46
    5. timvp's Avatar
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    Don’t agree with the tone but I do agree with the message. Forbes is a feel good, make a wish story but the Edgelord Society has known that Pop has him in the Matt Bonner role... you know...more minutes and/or starting for a team when he shouldn’t be more than a 8th/9th man.
    Few things:

    1. Obviously, when a segment of the fanbase has dozens upon dozens of issues with the team, obviously anything negative will have been previously discussed. But that's fine. I troll around with my pals TD21 and Mugen but at the end of the day I only care about the Spurs winning. I look for the truth, not something to fit a narrative. I'm sure this article contradicts other things I've posted in the past, which is okay by me.

    2. I know Forbes has/had a lot of distractors but I haven't seen many people put him at the head of the class regarding what is wrong with the Spurs. I see a lot more blame aimed at DeRozan, for example, than Forbes.

    3. Bonner is a pretty bad example, if we're being honest. For all Bonner's faults, he undeniably had a positive impact -- at least on the offensive end of the court. He was a true give (offensive spacing) and take (defense, rebounding, clutch play). Forbes, on the other hand, appears to be only a one-way street.

    Timvp has assembled an impressive case against Forbes but I'll push back a bit.
    Good post, thanks

    For example, in both of the clips in the article, Forbes was between his man an the basket.
    I probably wasn't clear enough in the article but this was why I picked those two highlights. Forbes did everything right in those two plays. He couldn't have done much better. But it didn't matter -- some no name shooting guard just want right through him like he wasn't there.

    Pop has a history of scheming to hide weaknesses on defense but Forbes' weakness on defense is a different type of animal. When opponents are going right through him and over him, there's no indication that he needs help so the help defense isn't going to rotate over. For example, when Belinelli gets beat off the dribble, it's obvious that help is needed. But what do you do when players are going right through Forbes?

    Can't wait for OP's next groundbreaking article: "Pop should play Dejounte and Derrick Together"
    From the preseason: https://www.spurstalk.com/dejounte-m...ying-together/

    Queue my one positive quote about Forbes amidst my sea of calling Forbes a trash player for the last 2.5 years
    Be careful!

  22. #47
    Veteran 8FOR!3's Avatar
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    White/DeRozan/Carroll/Gay/Aldridge

    I think the spacing would improve but it would still be somewhat of an issue with this lineup. Can't really start Murray/White together bc then you don't have a true backup PG and also neither one of them are super interested in taking a lot of threes. With White's emergence last year though and Murray on a minutes restriction and coming back from a major injury, I don't really understand why he's been starting.

  23. #48
    You Are Not Worthy ZeusWillJudge's Avatar
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    Also, I don't care what the question is, Patty Mills is not the freaking answer. EVERYTHING that is wrong with Forbes in the SL is wrong with Mills. Have you been watching the way they have been going at Patty the minute he comes into the game? That was a no-name starter that ran through Forbes. There are no-name bench players running through Patty. Replacing Forbes with Patty solves the Forbes problem, but only by replacing it with the Mills problem.

    The first and easiest improvement they could make is to go sign Walt Lemon as a third PG. The problem of Murray's minute restriction isn't a problem anymore. Then re-evaluate the statement about Pop not being able to start DJ and White because of Murray's restriction.

  24. #49
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    An undrafted undersized 2 guard is dragging down a professional basketball team? You don't say...

  25. #50
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    I am totally fine with taking Forbes out and agree; he’s been a massive disappoint but I also understand Pop asks him to punch above his weight every year (PG last year, starter at the NBA level).

    But, regarding “blame”? Why would people not blame DeRozan more than Forbes? They traded kawhi for Derozan and he’s the highest paid player and is a terrible defender in his own right.

    In terms of being able to fix things, Forbes being removed helps and he deserves some blame, but honestly I never feel great about blaming guys like Forbes who compete and are younger/cheap vs the stars.

    Would be different if this was a Tim situation where he is dominating and just has no help; but that is not the case here. The blame lies on Pop, DeRozan and LMA first and foremost even if others like Forbes are a bigger issue than people realize.

    Side note on your give and take comment: How is it possible SA built a team with no shooting AND terrible defense Normally you have give and take - you have players that are great shooters but you have to live with defensive issues. Or you have a great defensive team but their lack of shooting hurts. SA managed to build a roster full of bad 3PT shooting and terrible defenders???

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