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  1. #51
    TRU 'cross mah stomach LaMarcus Bryant's Avatar
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    Even Elnono is sad about this season

  2. #52
    R.C. Deez Nuts. Mugen's Avatar
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  3. #53
    Hope springs eternal. SAGirl's Avatar
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    Murray insertion has actually backfired on the Spurs due to its rotation. I really thought it would make us much better. The starting lineup should be the same as last year, but add Carroll for Poeltl against small teams. Then once Murray is off restrictions and earns it, he replaces Forbes.
    I’d really hope for Forbes to be replaced by someone. He is in a role too big for him atm.

  4. #54
    The St. Croix Boy duncan2k5's Avatar
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    About the same opponents score every first quarter. The difference is that we weren't behind 12 points this time. Defense is about unity and desire. Get Poetl acclimated again and get Aldridge engaged and we will be fine.
    If Forbes and Mills get us off to quick starts and then we sub in Murray and White, if they are who you say they are then we should dominate and get a lead.
    U do realize we were a top offensive team all year long? We didn't suck on offense with Murray starting, then suddenly become great... Our only problem has been defense and our inability to close out games (no coincidence Murray has been on the bench to close out games, except one in which he had the game-winning defensive play).

    We have had games where we had hot starts with Murray starting

  5. #55
    Five. DesignatedT's Avatar
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    Pop needs to stop trying to outsmart himself with these subs and . Those days are over. Just play the best players. Start Murray-White-Derozan-Carroll-Aldridge with Mills Forbes Rudy and Poeltl off the bench. Don't care about the lack of spacing in the SL. Get this team playing defense. If losses are still piling up then blow it up.

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  7. #57
    5. timvp's Avatar
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    We had our best 1st quarter in a long while and DDR had his best game of the year.
    DeRozan's best game of the year came against the Mavs with Murray starting.

    And you don't think the good offensive first quarter was due to going against a bad team that is the worst defensive team in the league? Interesting.

  8. #58
    5. timvp's Avatar
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    Pretty good stuff, thanks.

    Over their past seven games, the Spurs have conceded a mind-boggling 122.4 points per 100 non-garbage-time possessions, according to Cleaning the Glass, dead last in the league during that span.
    How Pop could think the answer to the problems is starting Mills ... man.

  9. #59
    Veteran KobesAchilles's Avatar
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    DeRozan's best game of the year came against the Mavs with Murray starting.

    And you don't think the good offensive first quarter was due to going against a bad team that is the worst defensive team in the league? Interesting.
    But how many good defensive teams are there? Seriously there’s maybe 5 in the whole league. We can get that kinda production against most teams, not just the Wizards.

    Also imo DDR played better against the Wiz than he did the Mavs. Both games were fantastic, but we came out flat against the Mavs. I’m not saying we should close with Forbes and Mills (I know Pop did that and that’s where he ed up) but I’m saying that starting Forbes and Mills isn’t the big deal everybody is saying it is.

  10. #60
    Veteran KobesAchilles's Avatar
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    U do realize we were a top offensive team all year long? We didn't suck on offense with Murray starting, then suddenly become great... Our only problem has been defense and our inability to close out games (no coincidence Murray has been on the bench to close out games, except one in which he had the game-winning defensive play).

    We have had games where we had hot starts with Murray starting
    We are a top offensive team. But we get off to slow starts more than not. Forbes and Mills bring shooting, spacing, and energy. It frees up the floor for DDR and allows him to create and be the primary ball handler. White and Murray off the bench should feast on opposing teams and would be a great combination.

    I agree though we shouldn’t be closing with Mills and Forbes. No argument here. But starting Forbes and Mills isn’t a big deal.

  11. #61
    Dejounte, White & THE IV Truth4sale$'s Avatar
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    Pretty good stuff, thanks.



    How Pop could think the answer to the problems is starting Mills ... man.
    Popovich is searching for leadership to offset the slow start. The one thing Mills has is heart. Just shouldn't been at the expense of Murray. Cant say the same for LaMarcus.

  12. #62
    5. timvp's Avatar
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    Forget the stats -- anyone with eyes can see Murray is erratic and oftentimes the good he does doesn't outweigh the bad. He shouldn't be coddled.
    Thanks for the counterpoints in this thread.

    However, I don't understand your overarching argument that Murray had a few bad games so he deserves to be shelved because he may not be an important part of the present or future. For a guy who you were advocating was worth a max extension not too long ago due to his play and a "narrative" that surrounded him, that's a pretty big fall off over a few bad games. Either you hand out max extension recommendations too readily or you believe you have seen enough to demote Murray from max player to disposable player.

    And I disagree with your opinion that Murray doesn't have room for growth. Murray is 23, which is still early in the normal growth curve of a player, and he missed a year with injury, wasn't pushed in college, didn't play much as a rookie and had just recently been handed the keys. Just watching him you can tell he has talent but that he needs to refine his game. Claiming he's too old for growth is pretty strange, especially -- again -- because you wanted him on a max contract and now think he's being overrated even though he has shown a lot of growth even compared to two years ago.

    What more were you expecting from Murray through 13 games other than flashes of excellence and stretches of growing pains? He's been about as good as I could have reasonably hoped for given the minutes restriction.

  13. #63
    The St. Croix Boy duncan2k5's Avatar
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    We are a top offensive team. But we get off to slow starts more than not. Forbes and Mills bring shooting, spacing, and energy. It frees up the floor for DDR and allows him to create and be the primary ball handler. White and Murray off the bench should feast on opposing teams and would be a great combination.

    I agree though we shouldn’t be closing with Mills and Forbes. No argument here. But starting Forbes and Mills isn’t a big deal.
    Bro... That's ONE GAME! we have gotten off to hot starts with Murray starting... Ur acting like scoring 40 in the first quarter will be a norm with mills and Patty

  14. #64
    The St. Croix Boy duncan2k5's Avatar
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    Thanks for the counterpoints in this thread.

    However, I don't understand your overarching argument that Murray had a few bad games so he deserves to be shelved because he may not be an important part of the present or future. For a guy who you were advocating was worth a max extension not too long ago due to his play and a "narrative" that surrounded him, that's a pretty big fall off over a few bad games. Either you hand out max extension recommendations too readily or you believe you have seen enough to demote Murray from max player to disposable player.

    And I disagree with your opinion that Murray doesn't have room for growth. Murray is 23, which is still early in the normal growth curve of a player, and he missed a year with injury, wasn't pushed in college, didn't play much as a rookie and had just recently been handed the keys. Just watching him you can tell he has talent but that he needs to refine his game. Claiming he's too old for growth is pretty strange, especially -- again -- because you wanted him on a max contract and now think he's being overrated even though he has shown a lot of growth even compared to two years ago.

    What more were you expecting from Murray through 13 games other than flashes of excellence and stretches of growing pains? He's been about as good as I could have reasonably hoped for given the minutes restriction.
    Exactly... Ppl forget how little Murray played his rookie season, and even his second season... He would have games where he wouldn't play at all

  15. #65
    5. timvp's Avatar
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    But how many good defensive teams are there?
    Compared to the Wizards, there are 13 teams that give up 10 fewer points per 100 possessions.

    We can get that kinda production against most teams, not just the Wizards.
    Scoring 132 points in a fast paced game against the Wizards is not impressive. It's a pretty average performance for this team, tbh.

  16. #66
    Believe. Coach X's Avatar
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    It's the defense, stupid!


    At Washington
    , IMO Murray was moved to the second unit due to his defensive struggles. Both him and White are doing a very poor job in defense and that's specially bad when they were supossed to lead the team from their position.
    Popovich is looking for some defense, at least in the starting line-up. After the 1st quarter, Spurs are digging from 10-15 pts down every game. Murray wasn't helping at all so coach goes with plan B, which is 18-19 season plan: the 2 bigs line-up. Mills gets a spot as starter in order to balance the spacing and maybe as a message for DJ as well. DeJounte reacted well in Washington playing with energy again. He didn't execute very well in defense but at least he was visible on the court. I hope White's poor game is related to his injury and he can heal and play at his level again.

    So far this season, DJ has shown lack of discipline and focus in most of defensive situations. He's been torched by small and fast guards but also by the big ones as well. At the beginning he was very active away from the ball so at least he helped defense disrupting opp.'s offense and deflecting the ball. Lately he hasn't contributed at all, not even rebounding.
    White has been awful as well. He didn't start well but improved after some games. However he's been one of the most inconsistent players of the team during the losing streak.

    They're young, and some tournovers or bad shots are accepted as part of their learning process. Though, they can't be distracted in defense, playing with no discipline, showing such lack of awareness into the defensive schemes. That's not acceptable. They're not rookies!
    2019 Spurs rely too much in this two kids. Team is struggeling in defense because it's not getting what it needs from the two PGs. That's why we are having that much of Mills and Forbes, even starting now. Spurs need these two playing decent defense like you need water in the desert.




    Rest of the team in defense:
    No surprise on Gay playing terrible defense, he needs to score everything to avoid being an overall minus. Liles is limited but smart so he manages unless he has to guard an all-star. Not surprised either with Aldridge and Poetl inconsistency. Mills and DeRozan aren't great defenders but at least they try and they're not supossed to have a key role in that end.

    Forbes' new status "no-defense-scorer" hurts the team HUGELY, he's not even trying to play defense: not being able of guarding anybody nor making a single effective help vs NBA starters. He makes some shots but it doesn't work like that to me. You barely can allow an All-star not playing defense in your team, no way you can allow it on a role player in starter minutes.




    About Popovich and coaching:
    We don't have enough information but it seems like the new assistant coaches group is not helping the team like Udoka and Messina did. Replacing these two for the rookie Hardy and our beloved but inexperienced Tim Duncan is having an impact in the team. It looks like there is no defensive game plan. Historically, Spurs defensive strategy correctly focused in opponents strenghts, gradually suffocating its offense as the game progressed. That's gone. Teams score 30+ 35+ points in the first quarters going to their plan A.

    Defensive execution is very poor. Spurs defensive system hasn't change, they try the same covers in the regular offensive situations. Murray and White are regularly forgetting or missing what to do. Forbes and Gay are an absolute disaster, never ready to do what the team needs from them. The team defense looks inexistent or chaotic too often. Transition defense isn't being a problem as usual, which tells even more about positional defense.

    Nobody out of the team understands why Belinelli keeps playing instead of Lonnie Walker IV. The last 3 times the kid had some minutes he had the perfect at ude and his play looked much better than his initial games.

    Forbes' role in this team is absolutely overblown. Too many minutes, too many shots, too much importance for this little guy. He CAN'T be an NBA starter, he doesn't have the physical tools nor the talent. He has become a useful role player but our team doesn't need that much his shooting and points and it's dying because of his lack of defensive contribution. Teams are focusing their offense on him!

    Our frontcourt needs phisicality, contact, agressiveness, pride, fight. Call it as you want. Please somebody go out there and play hard defense. Bigs are not even fouling. I don't think Carroll is a good defender but I'm sure he can help the team to be more assertive and let the opp feel they need to work if they want score.



    I don't believe in tanking. I believe we should keep Murray, White and Walker and I don't think there is a decent trade in the market for Aldridge or DeRozan. The team must start play better defense because they have the personnel to do it. It's time for adjustments, decissions and to show what kind of professional anybody is. I blame coaches and key players 50%-50% for this situation but I believe there is still time to fix it.

  17. #67
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    Pretty good stuff, thanks.



    How Pop could think the answer to the problems is starting Mills ... man.
    Not just Mills. But Mills with Forbes and DeRozan.

  18. #68
    Veteran KobesAchilles's Avatar
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    Compared to the Wizards, there are 13 teams that give up 10 fewer points per 100 possessions.

    Scoring 132 points in a fast paced game against the Wizards is not impressive. It's a pretty average performance for this team, tbh.
    So we score 122? idk what that 100 possession stuff means I just know there are 16 other teams then we can score that much against. Pretty good. Also every game nowadays is a fast paced game. The majority of teams are giving up like 110 points a game. I’ve seen no real issues with Forbes and Mills starting. I have seen an issue with them closing and I think those are two separate issues.

  19. #69
    R.C. Deez Nuts. Mugen's Avatar
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    OP should stop dancing around the edge and just say it tbh: Pop's gotta go.

  20. #70
    Veteran r0drig0lac's Avatar
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    Pop needs to stop trying to outsmart himself with these subs and . Those days are over. Just play the best players. Start Murray-White-Derozan-Carroll-Aldridge with Mills Forbes Rudy and Poeltl off the bench. Don't care about the lack of spacing in the SL. Get this team playing defense. If losses are still piling up then blow it up.
    this

  21. #71
    Believe.
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    We are a top offensive team. But we get off to slow starts more than not. Forbes and Mills bring shooting, spacing, and energy. It frees up the floor for DDR and allows him to create and be the primary ball handler. White and Murray off the bench should feast on opposing teams and would be a great combination.

    I agree though we shouldn’t be closing with Mills and Forbes. No argument here. But starting Forbes and Mills isn’t a big deal.
    Starting 2 of the 10 worst defenders in basketball isn't a big deal?

  22. #72
    You Are Not Worthy ZeusWillJudge's Avatar
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    Great post Zeus. Sums up part of why this unintended tank is not a good thing the way it’s happening. Some forum posts have given me hope maybe the young players getting the doghouse bc some of these veterans are getting traded out soon and Pop can’t deflate their perceived value cutting their minutes in a youth movement. I am not convinced but have started to have hope there’s perhaps a plan B that’s not apparent. But outside that hope yeah. Doesn’t make sense to continue a losing streak on the back of the veterans with youngins getting the doghouse or demotions.

    Spot on! I didn't say that the Spurs MUST go itentional tankathon. But they're doing it anyway. If you can't win then get about preparing to win. Pick a path.

    If Pop can make this roster win, then he needs to get about it - soon. If not, it's okay to switch gears. I know for sure that Bryn, Beli, and Patty aren't the future. (If they are, then the future is even dimmer than the present.) If he can win now with them, do it. But if not, playing them and benching the youth, and still losing? That's the worst of both worlds.

  23. #73
    You Are Not Worthy ZeusWillJudge's Avatar
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    Starting 2 of the 10 worst defenders in basketball isn't a big deal?
    IMO, it's a death sentence. The league is full of talented players who can score under the right conditions. This group is giving them the right conditions every single night. That's what you're seeing out there.

  24. #74
    Enemy of the FCC and AMA Dr. John R. Brinkley's Avatar
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    I’m curious what the best defensive starting five would be… Murray, White, Carol, Rudy, Jakob? Let me see that lineup just to see what the happens.

  25. #75
    Believe.
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    IMO, it's a death sentence. The league is full of talented players who can score under the right conditions. This group is giving them the right conditions every single night. That's what you're seeing out there.

    I agree...teams shoot over mills and forbes like they are not even on the court...you are going to have to break some single season scoring records to consistently win with them...

    The team we have right now is not a modern nba team...it's not going to win anything of significance...its really sad that an all time great coach like pop is letting his ego get in the way of the natural progression of a basketball team yet he himself won't get over himself...

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