Mavs: Is Luka Doncic the NBA’s best player right now?

[monosylab1k]

I have no idea why is anyone even comparing Luka to Bird.. well other than cause they are white, which is a re ed reason... Anyway, Luka is clearly a non athletic LeBron.

Exactly this, he’s LeBron/Harden with a splash of Manu. His style is very much “take control of the game tempo by brute force, manipulate the defense into giving you the look you want, and then pounce”.

Bird/Jokic are much more of the “operate within the natural flow of the game, read and react to what the defense gives you” style of play.

It's why you constantly hear that Bird/Jokic can “quietly” dominate games while only putting up 16/8/5 or something like that, while if LeBron/Luka put up that line, everyone would wonder why they played so poorly. Neither style is better, they’re just different.

[JamStone]

I’m a huge fan of both Luka and Jokic. I got both in my personal current top 3 favorite players. And I agree for the most part with the distinction above. But I also think that distinction is what impresses me more about Jokic. He doesn’t need to dominate the ball. I mean, he has the ball in his hands plenty. But he doesn’t need it in his hands all of the time to make his impact. He lets Morris and Barton share in the playmaking, even does the dirty work like setting screens and crashing the offensive boards. But his impact is still there even when he’s not statistically dominant, which oh by the way is rare regardless. He’s still usually in the neighborhood of 25/10/10 even when he doesn’t dominate the action.

It’s not to say that Luka or guys like LeBron or Harden are not great or not impressive in their own right. But they dominate the ball so much, you expect big statistical production.

[lefty]

I have no idea why is anyone even comparing Luka to Bird.. well other than cause they are white, which is a re ed reason... Anyway, Luka is clearly a non athletic LeBron.

Exactly this, he’s LeBron/Harden with a splash of Manu. His style is very much “take control of the game tempo by brute force, manipulate the defense into giving you the look you want, and then pounce”.

Bird/Jokic are much more of the “operate within the natural flow of the game, read and react to what the defense gives you” style of play.

It's why you constantly hear that Bird/Jokic can “quietly” dominate games while only putting up 16/8/5 or something like that, while if LeBron/Luka put up that line, everyone would wonder why they played so poorly. Neither style is better, they’re just different.

I’m a huge fan of both Luka and Jokic. I got both in my personal current top 3 favorite players. And I agree for the most part with the distinction above. But I also think that distinction is what impresses me more about Jokic. He doesn’t need to dominate the ball. I mean, he has the ball in his hands plenty. But he doesn’t need it in his hands all of the time to make his impact. He lets Morris and Barton share in the playmaking, even does the dirty work like setting screens and crashing the offensive boards. But his impact is still there even when he’s not statistically dominant, which oh by the way is rare regardless. He’s still usually in the neighborhood of 25/10/10 even when he doesn’t dominate the action.

It’s not to say that Luka or guys like LeBron or Harden are not great or not impressive in their own right. But they dominate the ball so much, you expect big statistical production.

My nuggahs

[Killakobe81]

Exactly this, he’s LeBron/Harden with a splash of Manu. His style is very much “take control of the game tempo by brute force, manipulate the defense into giving you the look you want, and then pounce”.

Bird/Jokic are much more of the “operate within the natural flow of the game, read and react to what the defense gives you” style of play.

It's why you constantly hear that Bird/Jokic can “quietly” dominate games while only putting up 16/8/5 or something like that, while if LeBron/Luka put up that line, everyone would wonder why they played so poorly. Neither style is better, they’re just different.

The irony of this post, is I have made both comparisons in the previous Luka thread.
I have said the Bron with less athleticism…
And I made the hybrid Harden/Pierce/Manu stylistic in one of my responses over the weekend and those are two of the guys you mentioned above, so obviously we agree on most of it.
I’m not gonna repeat myself for those that can’t comprehend the parts of his game that does remind me of Bird since I know most here never saw Larry play in his prime.
And fir the record I don’t watch ESPN anymore their coverage has been trash. So what perk or SAS has no bearing on me.

[lefty]

I'll make this simple

Luka is Luka, Larry is Larry, Jokic is Jokic, Demar is Jordan, Magic is Magic and Lebron and Lebron

Equation solved

[TD 21]

the same reason Timmy was a "power forward" yet would be the guy defending and being defended by Shaq, yao, bynum, etc...

Except Duncan primarily defended "power forwards" from '97-'06, which is why he's rightly referred to as the greatest PF of all time.

[Neo.]

Except Duncan primarily defended "power forwards" from '97-'06, which is why he's rightly referred to as the greatest PF of all time.

lmao no

would basically never guard dirk was a prime example, because 1 he got raped by dirk and 2 it would negate his strengths, which was playing as the center on defense

[TD 21]

lmao no

would basically never guard dirk was a prime example, because 1 he got raped by dirk and 2 it would negate his strengths, which was playing as the center on defense

Yes.

Nowitzki comprises one player and he also basically never guarded Duncan because he'd put his weak ass in the rim.

[Neo.]

Yes.

Nowitzki comprises one player and he also basically never guarded Duncan because he'd put his weak ass in the rim.

thinking he wasn't the primary guy guarding low post scorers like Shaq, and providing the majority of the paint defense

[TD 21]

thinking he wasn't the primary guy guarding low post scorers like Shaq, and providing the majority of the paint defense

Lack of reading comprehension. My point about Doncic is, if he doesn't defend PG's, then how can he be called one when James, who he's most similar to, isn't?

Duncan was a C who primarily defended PF's for his first 9 seasons, which is why he's both the GOAT PF and one of the GOAT C's.

[Killakobe81]

Not saying player or coaches are more knowledgeable but those that dismiss the Luka comp here like its crazy ... its not just Perk or SAS

Cedric Maxwell ... Luka Doncic continues to impress in his young career and is now getting comparisons to Hall of Famers. "You can quote me: This is Larry Bird reincarnated," Cedric Maxwell told Marc Stein of the New York Times.While Maxwell isn't the first to make this connection. The 11-year NBA veteran and current radio broadcaster won two les alongside the legendary player and thinks Doncic has the same skill set. "This would be Larry Bird of the 2020s," Maxwell said, "exactly how he would play now."

Rick Carlisle (the coach many on here argued was top 3 along with Pop and Spo) - He knows where everybody is not only on offense, but defense," Carlisle told reporters after the game, per Bleacher Report's Blake Schuster. "That's the sign of a savant-type guy. I've played with Larry Bird, he could see everything like that. I had the privilege of coaching Jason Kidd ... Luka is in that same mold."

[Neo.]

Lack of reading comprehension. My point about Doncic is, if he doesn't defend PG's, then how can he be called one when James, who he's most similar to, isn't?

Duncan was a C who primarily defended PF's for his first 9 seasons, which is why he's both the GOAT PF and one of the GOAT C's.

he defended PFs early on by default in order to play him and admiral together. but everyone knew he was truly a center.

hilarious how spurfan still gets so butthurt over this, because they know he wouldn't be considered the goat C

[TD 21]

he defended PFs early on by default in order to play him and admiral together. but everyone knew he was truly a center.

hilarious how spurfan still gets so butthurt over this, because they know he wouldn't be considered the goat C

Again, poor reading comprehension.

I said as much. Stop trying to force your predetermined narrative. All I'm saying is, despite what he naturally was, he still technically primarily defended the position he's widely regarded to be the GOAT at for the majority of his prime. Doncic doesn't do that.

[Dirks_Finale]

Again, poor reading comprehension.

I said as much. Stop trying to force your predetermined narrative. All I'm saying is, despite what he naturally was, he still technically primarily defended the position he's widely regarded to be the GOAT at for the majority of his prime. Doncic doesn't do that.

It's what he does here. Straw man to death. Defeat an argument that people aren't even making.

Then comes the Ad hominem.

Logical fallacy after logical fallacy.

[Neo.]

Again, poor reading comprehension.

I said as much. Stop trying to force your predetermined narrative. All I'm saying is, despite what he naturally was, he still technically primarily defended the position he's widely regarded to be the GOAT at for the majority of his prime. Doncic doesn't do that.

except that he actually does guard opposing PGs frequently. but then when matched up against elite scorers like steph or trae, then of course hes not going to be defending them, especially when there are better qualified defenders to handle it. not sure how this is some revelation to you.

and since when did basketball positions become defined by who you defend? its literally always been first and foremost based on their offensive role. why is a point guard called a point guard? because they are the "point" man, in that they run the offense. why is the shooting guard called a shooting guard? because their role is primarily to be a scoring threat by shooting the basketball.

luka runs the offense literally more than any player in the league, i dont get how anyone could be confused whatsoever by him being called the point guard

whatever people want to call lebron is another story. but asking why luka is called a PG because lebron isnt is literally completely irrelevant because luka 100% is a point guard. the real question is, why isn't lebron considered a PG?

It's what he does here. Straw man to death. Defeat an argument that people aren't even making.

Then comes the Ad hominem.

Logical fallacy after logical fallacy.

coming from a guy who literally gets crapped on by every poster for being a re who thinks hes intelligent

[TD 21]

except that he actually does guard opposing PGs frequently. but then when matched up against elite scorers like steph or trae, then of course hes not going to be defending them, especially when there are better qualified defenders to handle it. not sure how this is some revelation to you.

and since when did basketball positions become defined by who you defend? its literally always been first and foremost based on their offensive role. why is a point guard called a point guard? because they are the "point" man, in that they run the offense. why is the shooting guard called a shooting guard? because their role is primarily to be a scoring threat by shooting the basketball.

luka runs the offense literally more than any player in the league, i dont get how anyone could be confused whatsoever by him being called the point guard

whatever people want to call lebron is another story. but asking why luka is called a PG because lebron isnt is literally completely irrelevant because luka 100% is a point guard. the real question is, why isn't lebron considered a PG?



coming from a guy who literally gets crapped on by every poster for being a re who thinks hes intelligent

Pre Brunson starting, they lacked a starter suited to defending small guards.

Positions have long been defined by who you're primarily suited to defend because offensively roles are determined by skill sets, not physical stature. There's been numerous "PG's" who don't run the offense (Fisher, Chalmers, Beverley, etc.) and plenty of bigs who did and do, even if they generally didn't bring the ball up.

My point was more so about how Doncic and James should be similarly classified to begin with.

[Neo.]

Pre Brunson starting, they lacked a starter suited to defending small guards.

Positions have long been defined by who you're primarily suited to defend because offensively roles are determined by skill sets, not physical stature. There's been numerous "PG's" who don't run the offense (Fisher, Chalmers, Beverley, etc.) and plenty of bigs who did and do, even if they generally didn't bring the ball up.

My point was more so about how Doncic and James should be similarly classified to begin with.

yes positions generally come with certain expectations when it comes to their defensive role (mainly because the offensive position they play is usually related to size), but in the end, the le of the position is primarily describing the offensive role. if a player defended the opposing teams smallest guard, but never runs the offense or brings the ball up the court, it doesnt matter who he guards, hes simply not a point guard. it literally wouldn't make sense to classify someone as running point, if they never do.

luka is very clearly a point guard, and is classified as one. plain and simple. anyone who argues this is completely re ed.

[JamStone]

Especially at the point guard position, it’s what you do offensively that defines that position, “point guard.” It was never an issue or question that guys like Magic and Penny were point guards, and it had nothing to do with defense. Same with Ben Simmons now. Everyone views and considers him a point guard in a 6’10 power forward body.

Lines got blurred because of Jordan and his on the court descendants, Grant Hill, Kobe, T-Mac. Because not only did they dominate the ball offensively scoring the ball, but they were also the main facilitator for their teams’ offenses, most of the time anyway. Then along came LeBron, with the ball in his hands on offense 100% of the time, plus he was a 25-30 point scorer. Make no mistake about it, guys like LeBron, James Harden, Luka Doncic, they’re all point guards, regardless what they, their teams, espn, or the league lists them as, position wise. For that matter, Jokic is a point guard offensively. You could call Giannis a point guard too, but he’s since relinquish some of that responsibility to teammates over the last two seasons.

The game is ever evolving. And the whole idea of positionless basketball, while not new, is being more and more realized on the court. Anyone can lead a fastbreak. PFs and centers can facilitate the offense from the high post. Point guards post up. Centers shoot threes. And do it all 6’4-6’5 players who shoot threes offensively but guard the opposing power forward are not rare. PJ Tucker, Royce O’Neale, Jae Crowder all testify, and on good teams too.

Luka’s a point guard, regardless who he defends. It’s about what he does offensively.

[DMC]

lmao no

would basically never guard dirk was a prime example, because 1 he got raped by dirk and 2 it would negate his strengths, which was playing as the center on defense

Because Dirk was so guardable otherwise.

[DMC]

8 turnovers in the 2013 Game 6 Championship giveaway.

Irrelevant point.

[LkrFan]

I can't put him over Greek Freak until he starts playing better defense.

[Chris Fall]

I can't put him over Greek Freak until he starts playing better defense.

He has been playing better defense. Feels like once a guy has a reputation for being a poor defender, it never goes away. Luka will never be a Bruce Bowen caliber defender. But he's leagues better this year than in previous seasons. He stays in front of his man most of the time, puts in the effort, and doesn't just stand and watch.

Case in point, Doncic this season has a better Defensive Rating and Defensive Win Shares than guys like Marcus Smart, Jrue Holiday, Matisse Thybulle. I know, I know, I know. Advanced metrics are flawed. And they are influenced by how good or bad their teammates are. Thing is, Luka's advanced defensive stats are better than all his perimeter defender teammates. They're not carrying him. He's defended well this season. People just refuse to admit it because they like to poke fun of his physique.

He plays defense. I'll take it further..his Defensive Rating and Defensive Win Shares are exactly the same as Giannis' this season. Think about that when you suggest he has to play better defense to be put up there with the Greek Freak.

[Neo.]

anyone who says luka doesnt play good defense simply doesnt watch him, or judges him solely off of his occasional laziness (which is much more apparent early in the regular season)

when he's truly dialed in, hes a very good defender, both in help defense and 1-on-1 defense. anyone who really paid attention to their last two playoff series could see it, especially last year where he consistently bottled up PG13 into horrible shots, and even kawhi had some offensive struggles against him and pretty much had to stick to pullups because he couldnt drive effectively and couldnt just push him over like he does to most defenders. his anticipation on passes and instincts on cutting off dribble drives is fantastic.

having a much improved defensive scheme from kidd, as well as some decent offensive help in dinwiddie and brunson has helped him be able to stay focused more consistently this year, as he doesnt have to expend nearly as much energy just to keep the offense afloat. getting a legit paint protector next year like a healthy myles turner might make the mavs the best defensive team in the nba. when you look at the top 10 drtg teams in the nba, the mavs are the only one without a good defensive big. pretty impressive tbqh, and wouldnt be possible if luka sucks so bad on defense like people suggest.

[Killakobe81]

That sweet fake pass ball fake bucket the other night… reminded me of …oh wait … nevamind.

[Texas_Ranger]

Luka has always been a good defender on guys his size, but had problem with paying attention guarding the guy without the ball. This season hes much better at that and help defense. Hes also better with guarding quick guardsy where in the past they would run past him, this year not so much. He will probably never be an all defense player, but saying hes a bad defender is just cause of those talks from early in his career. If u wanna see a bad defender just look at Trae Young. Id even say Luka is much better than Morant, whos defense is overrated as .