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  1. #26
    I'll tumble for ya Chris Fall's Avatar
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    Tough to say. If he became a pretty good three point shooter, maybe he’d be a star. But if you just translate what he was in his prime, I think more likely he’d be a good but not great player in this league, maybe on the right team and in the right situation perhaps a borderline all star. But I don’t see him as a superstar type player.

    Without comparing stats necessarily, I think he’d be a player similar to Draymond. Pretty good at a number of things, very good defensively, and capable of playing different roles and different positions. I just don’t see him as being a franchise star of a team. And I think it would require that perfect situation for him to be able to maximize his talents, just like Draymond playing fourth fiddle or super role player to the greatest collection of shooters in the history of the game.

  2. #27
    coffee's for closers FrostKing's Avatar
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    "Not franchise player"

    Name 3 wing players today better than Pippen

    Defensively the top defender today at 8 boards a game and over 2 steals

    Pippen invented the Point-Forward position. Today he could play 1-4. Pippen would wreck this league today.
    Last edited by FrostKing; 5 Days Ago at 05:30 PM.

  3. #28
    Because I choose to. Neo.'s Avatar
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    "Not franchise player"

    Name 3 wing players today better than Pippen

    Defensively the top defender today at 8 boards a game and over 2 steals

    Pippen invented the Point-Forward position. Today he could play 1-4. Pippen would wreck this league today.
    lol there's three better than Pippen ever was in Los Angeles alone, not including the rest of the league

  4. #29
    coffee's for closers FrostKing's Avatar
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    lol there's three better than Pippen ever was in Los Angeles alone, not including the rest of the league
    Eye ball test. 20 year old Luka wouldn't be unguardable in the 90s

    Look at what scrubby Trae Young is doing. Pippen would be Top 5 player today with MVPs. His game translates even better to today

  5. #30
    I'll tumble for ya Chris Fall's Avatar
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    The league today caters to offensive creativity in the form of one-on-one skill. No hand checking on the perimeter and fouls galore for players able to get to the rim out of isolation or pick-n-roll. Whether it’s aesthetically pleasing to you or not or the style of basketball you enjoy, that’s how today’s superstars are created. That’s why Harden is an MVP. That’s why a guy who doesn’t shoot particularly well like Giannis is an MVP.

    That’s not who Scottie Pippen was. He wasn’t an iso player. He wasn’t even a big PNR scorer. He was an efficient offensive guy who could score in a number of different ways, but none of which in any prolific way at all. That’s why when Jordan left for a season and a half, Scottie went from an 18-19 PPG scorer to a 21-22 PPG scorer. You’d think Jordan taking away 30 points a game and handing the team to Pippen, Phil would have found a way for Scottie to become a 30-35 PPG scorer. He didn’t. He didn’t have that type of explosive scoring ability. Couple post-ups here, shooting open jumpers there. Get some garbage points in transition or off the offensive glass. Jordan left, and Pippen’s FGA increased by 1.4 per game, FTA 1.4 per game. There isn’t really any reason why he would be any different in today’s game.

    So no, I don’t think he’d wreck the league today. He’d still be a secondary player today. Perhaps a very good one. Perhaps good enough to be a borderline all star. But I personally believe that’s also being a bit generous.

  6. #31
    Board Man Comes Home Clipper Nation's Avatar
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    Pippen invented the Point-Forward position.
    John Johnson, Marques Johnson and Paul Pressey were playing point forward before Pippen was even in the league. Don Nelson is the reason why the position became so widespread, not MVPippen.

  7. #32
    Because I choose to. Neo.'s Avatar
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    Eye ball test. 20 year old Luka wouldn't be unguardable in the 90s

    Look at what scrubby Trae Young is doing. Pippen would be Top 5 player today with MVPs. His game translates even better to today
    Luka plays in Los Angeles?

    Oh btw he's > Pippen too

  8. #33
    Believe.
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    Probably best perimeter defender in the league.

  9. #34
    coffee's for closers FrostKing's Avatar
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    The league today caters to offensive creativity in the form of one-on-one skill. No hand checking on the perimeter and fouls galore for players able to get to the rim out of isolation or pick-n-roll. Whether itís aesthetically pleasing to you or not or the style of basketball you enjoy, thatís how todayís superstars are created. Thatís why Harden is an MVP. Thatís why a guy who doesnít shoot particularly well like Giannis is an MVP.

    Thatís not who Scottie Pippen was. He wasnít an iso player. He wasnít even a big PNR scorer. He was an efficient offensive guy who could score in a number of different ways, but none of which in any prolific way at all. Thatís why when Jordan left for a season and a half, Scottie went from an 18-19 PPG scorer to a 21-22 PPG scorer. Youíd think Jordan taking away 30 points a game and handing the team to Pippen, Phil would have found a way for Scottie to become a 30-35 PPG scorer. He didnít. He didnít have that type of explosive scoring ability. Couple post-ups here, shooting open jumpers there. Get some garbage points in transition or off the offensive glass. Jordan left, and Pippenís FGA increased by 1.4 per game, FTA 1.4 per game. There isnít really any reason why he would be any different in todayís game.

    So no, I donít think heíd wreck the league today. Heíd still be a secondary player today. Perhaps a very good one. Perhaps good enough to be a borderline all star. But I personally believe thatís also being a bit generous.
    This is a great post. But what separates Leonard from Pippen? 1 extra bucket (24PPG vs 22) in a more offensive/possession ERA. Just like Leonard, I agree he wouldn't be Harden'ing the PPG category but filling every other category.

    Also note the gap between Pippen & Harden's defense is larger than the gap offensively....

  10. #35
    I'll tumble for ya Chris Fall's Avatar
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    The two Finals MVPs. That’s the difference.

    One granted as a role player, but last year when Kawhi did become that 30 point dominant scorer in the playoffs to unquestionably lead a team to a le. Take away those, and maybe even just take away last season’s playoff run, and the perception of Kawhi becomes quite different. He’d be one of the best two way players in the league, but supers om would certainly be in question with only the 2016-17 season and last year when he did average 25+ PPG would be the only seasons showing superstar scoring dominance. Last season’s playoff run and le cemented the perception of supers om no matter what he does afterwards in his career. Without it, maybe just a better version of a Cedric Maxwell type player (the comparison being the perception of the Finals MVP on a stacked and already championship successful team, not necessarily talent or statistics).

    Scottie was always second fiddle to Jordan in his prime except for 1993-94. But in that post season without Jordan while he was still in his prime, Scottie still was a low 20s scorer in the playoffs and lost in the second round. Even if he got to the Finals or maybe even the ECF while putting up something like 28/8/5, maybe the argument would be stronger. And maybe if Jordan didn’t return, Scottie would have had a couple more chances to prove he was capable of that. But those extra chances never came during his prime.

    I think Scottie’s high end ceiling would have been someone like Paul George or Jimmy Butler, stars but certainly a secondary star who wouldn’t be the type of guy you would believe could win you a championship as the franchise star. Personally, I don’t think he’d be even that type of guy again because of the aforementioned point of lack of one-on-one scoring ability and/or elite three point shooting. I think the more favorable comparison is still Draymond Green as far as the type of impact player he’d be today.

  11. #36
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    Not sure why you keep ragging on Pippen's scoring like he wasn't a scorer. The year without Jordan, Pippen was the third leading wing scorer in the league, behind Nique (who everyone would agree was a dominant one on one scorer) and Mitch Richmond (who was chucking away on the Kings). It was an age when perimeter scoring wasn't harped on, when most of the leading scorers were post players.

    Unfortunately we don't have some of his advanced stats back in his prime, but I recalled Pippen created plenty of offense for himself and his team. He shot decently from 3 compared to other forwards during his time, he can handle the rock, he can drive and dunk, and he can shoot pull ups.

    His defense is elite, which nobody would try to argue, and his passing was top notch. He was the predecessor of Lebron, and at worst, would be able to produce like a Paul George with better defense.

  12. #37
    I'll tumble for ya Chris Fall's Avatar
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    VBecause he was on a team and in a system and under a coach who consistently had a wing scorer put up 30-35 PPG a season and that scorer left. Jordan wasnít replaced by another 30 point scorer. He wasnít even replaced with a 20 point scorer. If Scottie had that type of scoring ability, even close to that ability, in the same system playing under the same coach with no one else replacing Jordanís scoring, why wouldnít Scottie put up better scoring than 21-22 PPG when he was already a 18-19 PPG?

    Thatís why I keep harping on it.

    Itís not whether he was among the top scorers in the league or not. Thatís not the context. His team and system and coach are the context. Jackson and the triangle already proved it could provide the opportunity for a wing to put up 30+ PPG. Scottie couldnít even put up 25+ PPG, let alone 30+. Either Scottie simply wasnít capable of it or Phil Jackson didnít believe he could.

  13. #38
    coffee's for closers FrostKing's Avatar
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    The 1994 Bulls added Kerr & Kukoc - combined 19 PPG

    Defensively Pippen's rebounds (+1.0) and steals (+0.8) each improved so I think Phil didn't want to wear down his defense with more scoring duty

    Seems the strategy worked in 1994 as the team declined only 2 games

  14. #39
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    Not sure why you keep ragging on Pippen's scoring like he wasn't a scorer. The year without Jordan, Pippen was the third leading wing scorer in the league, behind Nique (who everyone would agree was a dominant one on one scorer) and Mitch Richmond (who was chucking away on the Kings). It was an age when perimeter scoring wasn't harped on, when most of the leading scorers were post players.

    Unfortunately we don't have some of his advanced stats back in his prime, but I recalled Pippen created plenty of offense for himself and his team. He shot decently from 3 compared to other forwards during his time, he can handle the rock, he can drive and dunk, and he can shoot pull ups.

    His defense is elite, which nobody would try to argue, and his passing was top notch. He was the predecessor of Lebron, and at worst, would be able to produce like a Paul George with better defense.
    I would say Grant Hill was a Pippen clone. I remember watching both during the 90's and their style of play was identical. Prime Hill before the ankle injury averaged 25.8 in his last season with the Pistons. I think Scottie could have had that type of scoring season if he was on a bad team that needed scoring.

  15. #40
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    VBecause he was on a team and in a system and under a coach who consistently had a wing scorer put up 30-35 PPG a season and that scorer left. Jordan wasn’t replaced by another 30 point scorer. He wasn’t even replaced with a 20 point scorer. If Scottie had that type of scoring ability, even close to that ability, in the same system playing under the same coach with no one else replacing Jordan’s scoring, why wouldn’t Scottie put up better scoring than 21-22 PPG when he was already a 18-19 PPG?

    That’s why I keep harping on it.

    It’s not whether he was among the top scorers in the league or not. That’s not the context. His team and system and coach are the context. Jackson and the triangle already proved it could provide the opportunity for a wing to put up 30+ PPG. Scottie couldn’t even put up 25+ PPG, let alone 30+. Either Scottie simply wasn’t capable of it or Phil Jackson didn’t believe he could.
    You mean because he’s not Jordan?

    In the entire 90s, Jordan was the only wing who could put up, consistently, 25+ppg. And he’s one of the, if not the, greatest scorer in nba history.

    There really aren’t too many wings who can actually put up those kinds of numbers and to say because he’s not Jordan, therefore he’s going to be a draymond green type player is a huge gap in logic.

  16. #41
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    I would say Grant Hill was a Pippen clone. I remember watching both during the 90's and their style of play was identical. Prime Hill before the ankle injury averaged 25.8 in his last season with the Pistons. I think Scottie could have had that type of scoring season if he was on a bad team that needed scoring.

    I thought bill couldíve been even better. If he developed properly. Ifs and buts though. Him, bias, Ralph Sampson are some of those who Iíd really love to see healthy for a significant part of their career.

  17. #42
    LONG LIVE THE CHIEF lefty's Avatar
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    You mean because he’s not Jordan?

    In the entire 90s, Jordan was the only wing who could put up, consistently, 25+ppg. And he’s one of the, if not the, greatest scorer in nba history.

    There really aren’t too many wings who can actually put up those kinds of numbers and to say because he’s not Jordan, therefore he’s going to be a draymond green type player is a huge gap in logic.
    The greatest scorer in NBA history is Kareem lol
    And itís not just because of longevity, he just had the most automatic shot in the history of the game

  18. #43
    LONG LIVE THE CHIEF lefty's Avatar
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    I thought bill couldíve been even better. If he developed properly. Ifs and buts though. Him, bias, Ralph Sampson are some of those who Iíd really love to see healthy for a significant part of their career.
    And Penny

    Sampson was a mental midget tho, not sure health would have helped tbh

  19. #44
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    The greatest scorer in NBA history is Kareem lol
    And it’s not just because of longevity, he just had the most automatic shot in the history of the game
    Ok my bad.

    The greatest marketer in nba history.

  20. #45
    LONG LIVE THE CHIEF lefty's Avatar
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    Ok my bad.

    The greatest marketer in nba history.
    Good

  21. #46
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    And Penny

    Sampson was a mental midget tho, not sure health would have helped tbh

    Oh yes penny for sure.

    Ralph the mental midget wrecked the lakers though. The league had to take it out on the guards.

  22. #47
    coffee's for closers FrostKing's Avatar
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    Grant's first 361 career games, he attempted grand total of 121 three pointers.

    What a glorious Era of basketball

  23. #48
    LONG LIVE THE CHIEF lefty's Avatar
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    Oh yes penny for sure.

    Ralph the mental midget wrecked the lakers though. The league had to take it out on the guards.
    Hakeem wrecked the Lakers (but Ralph made that buzzer beating shot)
    Ralph shat the bed vs Boston except in game 5

  24. #49
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    Hakeem wrecked the Lakers (but Ralph made that buzzer beating shot)
    Ralph shat the bed vs Boston except in game 5
    That Boston team was crazy though. I still think it’s the best team of all time.

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