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  1. #51
    Veteran DMC's Avatar
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    1500 jobs with no incentives. No cost, all benefit.

    25000 jobs that would have cost BILLIONS of dollars. Lots of cost, lots of benefit. (some additional costs beyond the pure incentives are noted in the marke ch article)


    https://www.marke ch.com/story/wh...nia-2018-11-14

    3.4bn/25,000= 136,000 per job, cost.




    Sorry. It wasn't the tax breaks that really sunk the deal, and the cost/benefit wasn't nearly as clear cut as the propaganda cool-aid you drink says it was.

    That is math.
    One thing for certain, you're not a economic adviser.

    The deal sunk. AOC took credit for sinking it saying it was the tax breaks.. but you're saying it wasn't. That makes her look even more stupid.

    What's your point? NYC lost 23500 jobs but ooh those 1500 eh?

    How do jobs cost billions of dollars? Cost whom? If I gave you a tax break if you bought 25 million worth of merchandise from me (or in your case, 25 dollars worth), would I be losing money vs only selling you 1.5 million without tax breaks (or in your case 1.50 cents)?

    On one hand I make millions and give you a tax break proportional with my profit, but on the other I don't make but I get that moral victory over Mr Big Pockets.

  2. #52
    Veteran DMC's Avatar
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    Companies almost never really live up to what they promise for the subsidies they get.

    You have almost no case to make that anything promised would ever really materialize.
    You think NYC was going to hand Amazon 3 billion on a promise?

  3. #53
    Veteran DMC's Avatar
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    1500 jobs with no incentives. No cost, all benefit.

    25000 jobs that would have cost BILLIONS of dollars. Lots of cost, lots of benefit. (some additional costs beyond the pure incentives are noted in the marke ch article)


    https://www.marke ch.com/story/wh...nia-2018-11-14

    3.4bn/25,000= 136,000 per job, cost.




    Sorry. It wasn't the tax breaks that really sunk the deal, and the cost/benefit wasn't nearly as clear cut as the propaganda cool-aid you drink says it was.

    That is math.
    From the same article you cherry picked that quote from:

    However, the majority of the tax breaks and grants Amazon would have received were contingent on the company fulfilling its promises regarding hiring and occupying commercial real estate.

    To that end, the offers Amazon accepted from New York and Virginia were “set up in the least harmful way,” Friedfel said. These requirements would have prevented Amazon from reaping the benefits of the incentives and then simply abandoning ship.

  4. #54
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    The pushback is not very complicated: This is a company that largely produces low-skill jobs, with an outlook to be replaced by robots in the near future, and it's a company that does a bang up job destroying any kind of unionization attempt. Add that this is the North East, they're not that dumb nor desperate over there. Most of those kind of jobs end up in Pennsylvania (IIRC, Amazon has a warehouse there already).

    All that said, this was probably much better than the FoxConn deal anyways... now, that's a disaster...

  5. #55
    Prince of Whales RandomGuy's Avatar
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    From the same article you cherry picked that quote from:

    However, the majority of the tax breaks and grants Amazon would have received were contingent on the company fulfilling its promises regarding hiring and occupying commercial real estate.

    To that end, the offers Amazon accepted from New York and Virginia were “set up in the least harmful way,” Friedfel said. These requirements would have prevented Amazon from reaping the benefits of the incentives and then simply abandoning ship.
    OMG, you actually read something.

    Color me shocked.

    Readily acknowledged. The offers of corporate welfare here were structured to do the least harm, and offered the most guarantee that they would be fulfilled.

  6. #56
    Prince of Whales RandomGuy's Avatar
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    So you’re saying that the top 20% are wealthy s? That sounds like bull .
    I know they control almost all of the wealth of hte country. The very top control more wealth than hundreds of millions of the rest of us.

    They pay very well for propaganda that fools a lot of useful idiots into thinking that they aren't being stolen from.

  7. #57
    Free at last. TheGreatYacht's Avatar
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    I know they control almost all of the wealth of hte country. The very top control more wealth than hundreds of millions of the rest of us.

    They pay very well for propaganda that fools a lot of useful idiots into thinking that they aren't being stolen from.
    These same fools are brainwashed to defend them and feel sorry for them.

  8. #58
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    I wonder how many of the phony moralists (politicians and citizens) celebrating this would cave in and let a sports team strong arm a city for a new arena, which happens with disgusting regularity. Probably most.

    Murican Moralists

  9. #59
    Free at last. TheGreatYacht's Avatar
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    I wonder how many of the phony moralists (politicians and citizens) celebrating this would cave in and let a sports team strong arm a city for a new arena, which happens with disgusting regularity. Probably most.

    Murican Moralists
    My old government teacher in college hated the Spurs. Someone asked him why. He said because their stadiums are funded by public tax payer money. That professor was principled

  10. #60
    LMAO koriwhat's Avatar
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    I wonder how many of the phony moralists (politicians and citizens) celebrating this would cave in and let a sports team strong arm a city for a new arena, which happens with disgusting regularity. Probably most.

    Murican Moralists
    truth is, 99.99% would and have already.

  11. #61
    Prince of Whales RandomGuy's Avatar
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    One thing for certain, you're not a economic adviser.

    The deal sunk. AOC took credit for sinking it saying it was the tax breaks.. but you're saying it wasn't. That makes her look even more stupid.

    What's your point? NYC lost 23500 jobs but ooh those 1500 eh?

    How do jobs cost billions of dollars? Cost whom? If I gave you a tax break if you bought 25 million worth of merchandise from me (or in your case, 25 dollars worth), would I be losing money vs only selling you 1.5 million without tax breaks (or in your case 1.50 cents)?

    On one hand I make millions and give you a tax break proportional with my profit, but on the other I don't make but I get that moral victory over Mr Big Pockets.
    One thing for certain, you're not an economic adviser.
    Last edited by RandomGuy; 12-11-2019 at 12:58 PM. Reason: aN error

  12. #62
    sick demented ring****** ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    I wonder how many of the phony moralists (politicians and citizens) celebrating this would cave in and let a sports team strong arm a city for a new arena, which happens with disgusting regularity. Probably most.

    Murican Moralists
    I've noted how ridiculous that is. I'm glad Austin pushed back at least some after righteous backlash against a complete giveaway proposal to an MLS team.

  13. #63
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    I've noted how ridiculous that is. I'm glad Austin pushed back at least some after righteous backlash against a complete giveaway proposal to an MLS team.
    Makes me sick when I hear about it. It's basic extortion right in public when teams pull this crap.

    In regards to Austin...if I was in a little-big city that's growing and could really use it's first professional team, I would be onboard with the right plan for the right sport/team if the city can truly use a new venue that is multi-purpose. Unsure how flexible a soccer stadium would be in generating the city revenues with other events there.

  14. #64
    sick demented ring****** ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Makes me sick when I hear about it. It's basic extortion right in public when teams pull this crap.

    In regards to Austin...if I was in a little-big city that's growing and could really use it's first professional team, I would be onboard with the right plan for the right sport/team if the city can truly use a new venue that is multi-purpose. Unsure how flexible a soccer stadium would be in generating the city revenues with other events there.
    The F1 track has been mostly state giveaways and that has concerts and other activities but still in the middle of nowhere and a traffic nightmare, so meh.

    The original proposal for the MLS was a near complete giveaway of prime lakefront parkland with zero parking. It was insane and enough people pressured everyone to go back to the drawing board, change the location and extract demand upon demand of the MLS owner. The result is a little more meh than awesome, but so much better than the first one. Stadium is being built upon a chemical slag heap they will actually pay rent on after a few years. They have to build a lot of transportation infrastructure since there is very little parking onsite. It's kind close to yuppie playland The Domain so it almost makes sense, but I predict a whole lot of growing pains the next few years.

    I think there will probably be new city arena to fight over in the next decade or so. UT's new arena is going to be kind of small for the events Austin will be wanting in the future. Will be interesting to see if another pro sports franchise tries to get in on the action.

  15. #65
    Prince of Whales RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Makes me sick when I hear about it. It's basic extortion right in public when teams pull this crap.

    In regards to Austin...if I was in a little-big city that's growing and could really use it's first professional team, I would be onboard with the right plan for the right sport/team if the city can truly use a new venue that is multi-purpose. Unsure how flexible a soccer stadium would be in generating the city revenues with other events there.
    agreed on all counts. Austin has gotten big enough and attractive enough economically/marketwise.

    Problem though is traffic and parking. Any place a stadium might get plunked down already has houses on it.

  16. #66
    Prince of Whales RandomGuy's Avatar
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    The F1 track has been mostly state giveaways and that has concerts and other activities but still in the middle of nowhere and a traffic nightmare, so meh.

    The original proposal for the MLS was a near complete giveaway of prime lakefront parkland with zero parking. It was insane and enough people pressured everyone to go back to the drawing board, change the location and extract demand upon demand of the MLS owner. The result is a little more meh than awesome, but so much better than the first one. Stadium is being built upon a chemical slag heap they will actually pay rent on after a few years. They have to build a lot of transportation infrastructure since there is very little parking onsite. It's kind close to yuppie playland The Domain so it almost makes sense, but I predict a whole lot of growing pains the next few years.

    I think there will probably be new city arena to fight over in the next decade or so. UT's new arena is going to be kind of small for the events Austin will be wanting in the future. Will be interesting to see if another pro sports franchise tries to get in on the action.
    Also agreed. Never been out to the Domain. Like so many new places, I feel old when I visit austin these days. "i remember when this used to be a field"- old.

  17. #67
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    agreed on all counts. Austin has gotten big enough and attractive enough economically/marketwise.

    Problem though is traffic and parking. Any place a stadium might get plunked down already has houses on it.
    Irwin center is coming down, Moody Center replacing it, Red River closed for 2 years.

    Austinians won't spend the $100Ms for bonds/taxes to improve roads, so the traffic, esp rush hours is HORRENDOUS

  18. #68
    sick demented ring****** ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    agreed on all counts. Austin has gotten big enough and attractive enough economically/marketwise.

    Problem though is traffic and parking. Any place a stadium might get plunked down already has houses on it.
    There are actually a couple decent sites for stadiums/arenas themselves, but the traffic and parking infrastructure around them simply doesn't exist and won't without displacing a lot of people and/or businesses. The slag heap almost works if you squint a whole lot and see people hiking in from The Domain. The bombed out Home Depot on I35 is a great site in theory but it's impossible to see the city and state doing everything necessary to make it work. There is arguably adequate parking downtown if a decent site could be found but with the Statesman site off the table that's going to be a tough get.

  19. #69
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    Also agreed. Never been out to the Domain. Like so many new places, I feel old when I visit austin these days. "i remember when this used to be a field"- old.
    Downtown with many high rise TOWERS and more to come killing the myth that Austin is small town with affordable rent.

    I live in SA but find Austin so much more interesting, lively, and above all much more wealthy.

    In contract, Frost just put up the first high rise tower in DT SA in 30 years.

  20. #70
    sick demented ring****** ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Also agreed. Never been out to the Domain. Like so many new places, I feel old when I visit austin these days. "i remember when this used to be a field"- old.
    I go every couple months, and work is going to take me there more often now. It's really impressive in a lot of ways (the sheer volume of upscale places and decent amount of open space) and stupid in others (allowing cars to drive right through the middle of the place for no reason at all; not making it a public transportation hub). And we did subsidize the out of it. It's a success story they're going to try to replicate in like three other areas in the coming years. Hopefully they learn some lessons from it.

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