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  1. #51
    Believe. BlackAndWhite's Avatar
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    I would extend Derozan on a reasonable deal. If he gets another 3 years on a contract similar to his current one, I would be satisfied.

  2. #52
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    1) That's you, and while you can feel that way it's just your opinion.

    2) They're about at that level despite not really trying to win now. It's actually more attainable to become a soild 45-47--win team by selling their future than by hoping their lotto picks pan out. Remember, Minnesota, Sacramento and Phoenix would love to win that much with their young cores.
    3) Even if tanking is the right thing to do, trading DeRozan for present value/fliers isn't conducive to that.
    Well yeah, thats what I asked you for your opinion first. I gave mine, so you were clear on where I stood, but I asked for yours.

    They are trying to win now. Itís why they have two max players in LMA/DeRozan and re-signed Rudy Gay and brought in an aging vet in Carroll. Along with keeping Beli, Mills, etc...They absolutely are trying to win now and that has been the goal. I dont think they can acquire a better talent than LMA to pair with DeRozan either so I donít see much improvement with DeRozan led Spurs on the horizon. You listed 3 terrible franchises. Unless you think SA is poorly run as a whole (I donít) then itís not really comparable. For every PHX, SAC and MIN there are the Bucks, Philly & Memphis of the world too.

    Good teams do good things and bad teams do bad things. Winning 45-47 is a noble cause; SA isnt there and I donít think they can be with this core.

    Iíve said trade DeRozan for youth and picks. My other commentary was a guess at SA trying to win now and giving a best guess at what a trade would look like under those cir stances.

  3. #53
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    I think it's a much bigger deal that we have 3 prospects in the G-League who are better than 2 of our current starters

  4. #54
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    I agree. We need to trade Bryn. Ship him to Philly for a second round pick. We need a roster overhaul on the back end, not necessarily the front end. I'm not a huge DDR fan but he should work well with the youngins since he can consistently get into the paint. It's on Murray and White to up their game and learn to up their 3s (both in volume and fg%).

    BUT we need to gt rid of Forbes, Belli, and Carrol. Just by doing that alone we would make the playoffs. In the offseason we should sign Morris again
    This is pretty much where I stand. This team just needs a 3rd wheel and better role players. Right now they have the 2 go-to-guys and are gambling on one of the young guys developing in the 3rd best player on the team. They just have to get rid of the dead weight and get at least one serviceable starter back. Next year you'll have 3 guys who are all good defenders that can shoot the 3 come in to add to that young core. No team is filled with 20-year olds, you need some veterans around. I don't know how many more young players you'd want on this team.

    The main problem is still the head coach. If it was up to me Metu and Walker would start. Weatherspoon and Keldon Johnson would get bench minutes while Forbes, Beli and Lyles are out of the rotation completely.

    That would mean Murray, White, Walker, Metu, Johnson, Weatherspoon and Poeltl would all be in the rotation. Add Lyles and Samanic as 3rd stringers. All of them are 25 and under. That are 9 players and the Spurs will have another draft pick this year. That makes it 10 players. Do you want another 5 young ones? You need some vets around those young dudes and DeRozan, Aldridge, Gay, Mills suit that profile quite well.

    Forbes, Beli and Carroll on the other hand, they need to go ASAP

  5. #55
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Lyles is better than Metu. It's amazing that we actually have to consider that.

  6. #56
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    Lyles is better than Metu. It's amazing that we actually have to consider that.
    I wouldn't be so quick to judge. People here like Lyles because he can do a little bit of everything, well Metu can do that too and is miles better defensively and has a lot more athleticism. There's nothing that Trey Lyles is really good at.

    You also said that Pau Gasol was better than Poeltl last year and we all know how that turned out

  7. #57
    R.C. Deez Nuts. Mugen's Avatar
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    I wouldn't be so quick to judge. People here like Lyles because he can do a little bit of everything, well Metu can do that too and is miles better defensively and has a lot more athleticism. There's nothing that Trey Lyles is really good at.

    You also said that Pau Gasol was better than Poeltl last year and we all know how that turned out

  8. #58
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I wouldn't be so quick to judge. People here like Lyles because he can do a little bit of everything, well Metu can do that too and is miles better defensively and has a lot more athleticism. There's nothing that Trey Lyles is really good at.

    You also said that Pau Gasol was better than Poeltl last year and we all know how that turned out
    He was better and then fell apart physically (pretty much ended his career). Even old, a healthy Pau was better than Jakob's ever been. He was pretty much like what Aldridge is now with less mobility but with better rim-protection It doesn't make sense to brag about him when he still can't get a bigger role even with Gasol in the grave.

    I don't hate Metu even though I've hated the way he's played every time I've seen him. But putting up great G-League numbers puts him at the level Forbes was years ago. Lyles would kill it there.

  9. #59
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    In my defense, I never thought Beli was better than him.

  10. #60
    Believe. JuneJive's Avatar
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    People here like Lyles because he can do a little bit of everything, well Metu can do that too and is miles better defensively...
    Based on what? Your opinion?

  11. #61
    Veteran r0drig0lac's Avatar
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    Based on what? Your opinion?
    this matters? between Metu and Lyles this is where we are now, if it weren't for Pop, Dante would not play in the nba in 2019 and Lyles would not play in the nba in 2020, believing that Lyles is a better player than Metu because he gets minutes in SA is like believing that Forbes is better than any nba player.

  12. #62
    Believe. JuneJive's Avatar
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    this matters? between Metu and Lyles this is where we are now, if it weren't for Pop, Dante would not play in the nba in 2019 and Lyles would not play in the nba in 2020, believing that Lyles is a better player than Metu because he gets minutes in SA is like believing that Forbes is better than any nba player.
    Would we even mention Forbes as an issue if he were a 3rd stringer?
    He has his place in the NBA.
    So does Lyles. He is mediocre all around, without a glaring fault.
    If used adequately and within his capabilities he wouldn't be a topic of conversation.

    Pop is misusing them. Not so much Lyles as he is Forbes and that is the issue here.

  13. #63
    R.C. Deez Nuts. Mugen's Avatar
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    In my defense, I never thought Beli was better than him.
    Chinny, my man!

    In MY defense, Beli ended up contributing way more than your boy Pau last year...I didn't think your god Pop would be giving heavy mins to a washed Beli 30+ games into the season...definitely my mistake giving the old man way too much credit heading into this season.

  14. #64
    D up! exstatic's Avatar
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    Gordon AND a 1st for Dumbmar? You are dreaming. I hope your dreams come true on a very regular basis!
    Gordon is as much a dinosaur as DD. He is truly only a one position player, PF. He doesn't have the ball handling or shooting to play SF. Orlando tried for years to make him fit that, and it failed. He ain't all that and a bag of chips. He is what he is, which is twitchy athletic and mediocre at basketball. After 5 plus years, there isn't a development curve left.

  15. #65
    Veteran sasaint's Avatar
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    Gordon is as much a dinosaur as DD. He is truly only a one position player, PF. He doesn't have the ball handling or shooting to play SF. Orlando tried for years to make him fit that, and it failed. He ain't all that and a bag of chips. He is what he is, which is twitchy athletic and mediocre at basketball. After 5 plus years, there isn't a development curve left.
    Yeh, I know how Orlando persevered in trying to shoehorn Gordon into the SF role. Frankly he never has impressed me much. On the other hand, though, I don't think Orlando places great value on Dumbmar, from what I have read. They are primarily looking for outside shooting. Under any other regime, we might be able to trade Bryn to Orlando...

  16. #66
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    Would we even mention Forbes as an issue if he were a 3rd stringer?
    He has his place in the NBA.
    So does Lyles. He is mediocre all around, without a glaring fault.
    If used adequately and within his capabilities he wouldn't be a topic of conversation.

    Pop is misusing them. Not so much Lyles as he is Forbes and that is the issue here.
    I think it’s questionable that Lyles is an nba quality player. There are plenty of guys as good as him.

  17. #67
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    Eh, I had a long response to this, but it's been hashed out too many times at this point. Cliff Notes: They can get a lot worse and understandably may not want to do that. The Spurs can tank whenever, so there's nothing smart about doing it now and nothing "scared" about wait. Walker and the other young guards need to show more in the context of LMA and DMDR before projecting them. Giving them the keys and hoping it makes them stars is the fast way to become another Wolves or Suns. Trading DeRozan understanding that they're likely to get worse and thus getting mostly future value makes way more sense than trading him for worse players at different positions and hoping guys step up to fill the gap. That'd be a worse version of what the Spurs did with Leonard. If DeRozan, like Leonard, forces PATFO's hands, then maybe they have to do such a trade. But they're more likely to be a better team with DeRozan as the three for the next few years than with a guy with two more inches but way less talent like Gordon.
    It depends on the type of trade because that'll more than likely determine their direction obviously. But in theory, say they traded him for 1-2 young starting caliber veterans who fit better, they'd arguably be better and almost certainly not appreciably worse.

    The thing about not tanking when you already suck is, you're just delaying the inevitable and increasing the amount of pain the organization and fan base will have to endure in the long run.

    I'm not projecting anything about the young guards and you're still too fixated on Gordon (who'd play the four). They could trade DeRozan for a mid 1st, which when combined with their own and possibly another asset, could get them mid-high lottery (of course, lottery luck with their own 1st could render this moot).


    And I have no idea why trading DeRozan means Forbes no longer starts. If anything, I think it'd make Pop want Bryn out there even more to carry the offensive load you're assuming would go to White and Walker.
    Forbes only starts because of the need for spacing in the starting lineup. If all or part of a DeRozan return is, Porter Jr. or Ross or someone of that ilk, the equation changes.

    No matter the scenario, Forbes isn't going to be granted greater creative license.


    It doesn't make sense to brag about him when he still can't get a bigger role even with Gasol in the grave


    Poeltl only is limited to roughly 12-15 minutes most games because he plays behind Aldridge and even if you want to argue they could theoretically play more together than they do (not enough ball handling, passing or defensive mobility/versatility), they can't on a team with spacing issues along the perimeter.



  18. #68
    Believe.
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    Nah. DeRozan's penetration provides spacing for the shooters. You can't seriously watch Murray and Walker drive on a set defense and think they can fill in for DeRozan. The only way the offense doesn't fall apart os if LMA has yet another resurgence. And I have no idea why trading DeRozan means Forbes no longer starts. If anything, I think it'd make Pop want Bryn out there even more to carry the offensive load you're assuming would go to White and Walker.
    So I guess you forgot White was on the team or was that a purposeful omission. He's more than capable of filling in for the play maker role as he showed us last year and especially after you were fawning over him all off-season. As far as Pop is concerned, he plays who he plays no matter what the analytics or eye test shows. I stand by my statement that the trio of Murray, White & Walker will out produce any combination with DDR still in the picture. Also, keep in mind that we will probably get a decent rotation player out of the trade.

  19. #69
    Veteran rjv's Avatar
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    Whether you want to trade him or keep him, DeMar signing a reasonable extension would be good for the Spurs. Simply put, the path to getting better isn't just putting the ball in the young guards' hands and having them carry the load. Yeah, you could max DeRozan and really hurt yourself in the long run. But something similar to what he's making for three more years wouldn't be bad at all, they could still create cap for a big name if he stays on the roster or still move him. If he doesn't want to stay, then you have to look at trading him. If he's willing to sign a good deal, you do that. If he doesn't want to leave but wants SA to max him, well, I'd say it could make sense to just wait it out. I don't see anyone willing to go all the way for him this off-season, and once he sees that, he might be willing to come down considerably. If he walks, try to work out a sign-and-trade. I'm not sure the team can expect a bigger haul for DeRozan this season than they'd get in a S&T anyway.
    derozan is a legit tier two player, which the spurs have few of. to me, derozan's value is somewhat predicated on the growth of the younger talent surrounding him. while i do not see a perennial all-star in our younger players, i do see quite a few solid rotational players, similar to what boston has managed to assemble. that's just the sort of core that derozan and another solid vet could work with. the key, as you stated, is in what the asking price derozan would ask for. if he stays in his current price range, i think the spurs would have to strongly consider it.

  20. #70
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    Lyles is better than Metu. It's amazing that we actually have to consider that.
    But is he irreplaceable

  21. #71
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    But is he irreplaceable
    How you been, 'Lange? Feels like it's been a good while since I've run into you here.

  22. #72
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    So I guess you forgot White was on the team or was that a purposeful omission. He's more than capable of filling in for the play maker role as he showed us last year and especially after you were fawning over him all off-season. As far as Pop is concerned, he plays who he plays no matter what the analytics or eye test shows. I stand by my statement that the trio of Murray, White & Walker will out produce any combination with DDR still in the picture. Also, keep in mind that we will probably get a decent rotation player out of the trade.
    I didn't forget White. Derrick already has his own unit, and while I am as big a believer in his skill-set as you seem to be, I don't think it makes sense to project him doing anything but maintaining his per-36 numbers if he were the only player who could create from the perimeter. I don't want to get into "Yes it is; no it isn't" when it comes to things like White's ceiling. You're welcome to stand by your statement. I will stand by mine that I need to see those guys play much better before I assume they're going to give All-Star production.

  23. #73
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    In my defense, I never thought Beli was better than him.

  24. #74
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    It depends on the type of trade because that'll more than likely determine their direction obviously. But in theory, say they traded him for 1-2 young starting caliber veterans who fit better, they'd arguably be better and almost certainly not appreciably worse.
    DeRozan is the piece around which things fit. If Murray can't fit with DeRozan, then it's Murray who has to change his game, because his game isn't good enough to build around. In fact, Murray has changed his game, and the team has been better for it. Can you trade DeMar for forwards and put the ball into Murray's hands more? Yes. Is that actually fitting better? No, because Murray shouldn't be more than the secondary ball-handler until/unless his skills improve. DeRozan and the four and Walker at the three continues to work for the Spurs, so there's no fit issue there. And White and DeRozan fit together just fine last year, and especially given White's role off the bench, there's room for them to co-exist. The problem with the personnel is that they are playing bad defenders like Forbes and Beli minutes when they could be playing Walker more or giving Carroll run. It's not that DeRozan is playing some of the best ball of his career and filling the stat sheet night in, night out.

    The thing about not tanking when you already suck is, you're just delaying the inevitable and increasing the amount of pain the organization and fan base will have to endure in the long run.
    No. I get that you and some fans are "in pain" over this season. But I'd be just fine with this season if Walker were getting good minutes and we saw more cameos from other young guys. I'm in no rush to root for a bad (meaning actually bad, not mediocre) team. I'd prefer les, but the last three years have been pretty okay all things considered. I doubt I'd watch them nearly as much if they were a 20-win team.

    I'm not projecting anything about the young guards and you're still too fixated on Gordon (who'd play the four). They could trade DeRozan for a mid 1st, which when combined with their own and possibly another asset, could get them mid-high lottery (of course, lottery luck with their own 1st could render this moot).
    I'm not fixated on Gordon. He's just the easiest player to bring up. I've made my stance on this pretty clear: Tank or don't. If you can get a good pick and want to blow it up, I'd understand. But all that stuff you've argued about them getting "better fitting" pieces back just doesn't fly with me.

    Forbes only starts because of the need for spacing in the starting lineup. If all or part of a DeRozan return is, Porter Jr. or Ross or someone of that ilk, the equation changes.

    No matter the scenario, Forbes isn't going to be granted greater creative license.
    It's not just spacing with Forbes. I don't disagree that Bryn's shooting is the main reason he's out there. But I totally think that Pop keeps him out there even in the event of a Porter/DeRozan swap. Most of the need to move away from Forbes goes away, in fact once you add in the extra size and theoretically better D from Porter. Sure, most of us here think that's all the more reason to move on. But especially given Aldridge likely moving back inside without DeMar, I don't see it changing.

    Poeltl only is limited to roughly 12-15 minutes most games because he plays behind Aldridge and even if you want to argue they could theoretically play more together than they do (not enough ball handling, passing or defensive mobility/versatility), they can't on a team with spacing issues along the perimeter.
    Yes, and that's part of what made Pau a legit option until the wheels fell off. Spacing wouldn't be anything like a problem anymore, and the added play-making (which Poe has more than the average big, granted) would make it more viable. Indeed, the lack of mobility would be an even bigger issue, but Gasol had been a net-positive defensive player for years.

  25. #75
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Chinny, my man!

    In MY defense, Beli ended up contributing way more than your boy Pau last year...I didn't think your god Pop would be giving heavy mins to a washed Beli 30+ games into the season...definitely my mistake giving the old man way too much credit heading into this season.
    I'm not sure that I'd consider being a net-negative for more minutes contributing. Spurs might have won a couple more games had been had the good grace to bow out like Gasol did.

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