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  1. #40326
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    Joel Wertheim
    and there are lots more that are EVOLUTIONARY MOLECULAR BIOLOGISTS that under stand very well what you call novel has been accomplished in Nature many, many times.
    And you try and make fun of the racoon dog study but this is exactly the type of papers you have to start out with as tracing origins of animals with the virus is very difficult and takes time.

    AGAIN. The Flu of 1917 was far worse than Covid and was very NOVEL and could not have possibly been started by a lab because we did not even know the function of nucleic acids. WE STILL are not sure of the animal origins but certainly dont say it was a lab. Where do you think it came from? Now after you go and look up Wertheim follow the path of EVOLUTIONARY molecular biologists that have traced other diseases to animal origins and you have your list. And it makes sense because its much more likely NATURE lead to the pandemic than a lab leak. And lab leaks have happened in the past. Zero have cause pandemics.

    You are thick headed and or disingenuous because you dont know what the fk you are reading.
    Explain Novel from a molecular point of view.

  2. #40327
    wrong about pizzagate TSA's Avatar
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    Joel Wertheim
    and there are lots more that are EVOLUTIONARY MOLECULAR BIOLOGISTS that under stand very well what you call novel has been accomplished in Nature many, many times.
    And you try and make fun of the racoon dog study but this is exactly the type of papers you have to start out with as tracing origins of animals with the virus is very difficult and takes time.

    AGAIN. The Flu of 1917 was far worse than Covid and was very NOVEL and could not have possibly been started by a lab because we did not even know the function of nucleic acids. WE STILL are not sure of the animal origins but certainly dont say it was a lab. Where do you think it came from? Now after you go and look up Wertheim follow the path of EVOLUTIONARY molecular biologists that have traced other diseases to animal origins and you have your list. And it makes sense because its much more likely NATURE lead to the pandemic than a lab leak. And lab leaks have happened in the past. Zero have cause pandemics.

    You are thick headed and or disingenuous because you dont know what the fk you are reading.
    Explain Novel from a molecular point of view.
    You didn't answer the question. Was Farrar, Andersen, Daszak, or Baric one of the scientists you keep bringing up but never actually name?

  3. #40328
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    You didn't answer the question. Was Farrar, Andersen, Daszak, or Baric one of the scientists you keep bringing up but never actually name?
    I DID NOT answer a question? You avoid all of mine.

    The guys you mention think they have found sequences they thought had the hallmark of engineering but its quite clear from the EVOLUTIONARY guys that this is not the case at all. These scientists are NOT as well trained in sequences found in nature or have the hallmark of natural mutations. They think they have found something that looks like engineers because thats what they have always looked at.

  4. #40329
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    Dont worry TSA.

    This is all coming from the red team House committee stuff.
    You will have plenty more you dont understand.

    We do need China to help us. China has already thrown a scientist in jail because of CRISPR experiment. So you will have plenty of inane tweets to choose from.

  5. #40330
    wrong about pizzagate TSA's Avatar
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    I DID NOT answer a question? You avoid all of mine.

    The guys you mention think they have found sequences they thought had the hallmark of engineering but its quite clear from the EVOLUTIONARY guys that this is not the case at all. These scientists are NOT as well trained in sequences found in nature or have the hallmark of natural mutations. They think they have found something that looks like engineers because thats what they have always looked at.
    What are your thoughts on the Proximal Origin paper published in Nature Medicine?

  6. #40331
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    What are your thoughts on the Proximal Origin paper published in Nature Medicine?
    I think optimized sites for binding is exactly the type of viral mutation that would be selected for Naturally. And there are other mutations not in the e protein that would make NO SENSE to change but are changed. Just like random mutations do. Not all of it makes sense from a natural selection point of view. But mutated sequences "piggy back" on sequences that do get selected for naturally. We have thousands of examples of this type of thing. Evolutionary molecular biologists know these things.

    How would you explain the orgin of the 1917 flu virus?

  7. #40332
    wrong about pizzagate TSA's Avatar
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    I DID NOT answer a question? You avoid all of mine.

    The guys you mention think they have found sequences they thought had the hallmark of engineering but its quite clear from the EVOLUTIONARY guys that this is not the case at all. These scientists are NOT as well trained in sequences found in nature or have the hallmark of natural mutations. They think they have found something that looks like engineers because thats what they have always looked at.
    You don't think the team Fauci assembled was qualified enough?

  8. #40333
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    You don't think the team Fauci assembled was qualified enough?
    No.
    I actually like that they represent a counter balance.
    But I absolutely understand why Fauci moved on to more likley studies and people to get at the actual answer.
    Imo we need to have access to the Chinese info as it would make some of this a lot more efficient.

    But scientists spurned can be as bad as any other human being. I also understand this.
    Its very exciting if your paper makes a huge discovery. Its kind of blah if we say, "welp, we can rule out a lab origin"
    Studies in science often find nothing new, they just eliminate a scientists favored theory. Some scientists actually understand this. And some have a certain way of thinking that make them doggedly determined they are correct. Because it sounds so good. There are personalities in Science. Fauci is one who grew a lot in his studies with AIDS. He learned. Thats why I trust him. People dont know his story and how he has grown in understanding. Its why he was selected. But he is NOT a very good politician imo. A bunch of experts are not good politicians. He and Birk disagreed with a lot of stuff as well. But they basically agreed that Trump was not to be trusted. "I understand this better than anyone"

  9. #40334
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    im out...

  10. #40335
    wrong about pizzagate TSA's Avatar
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    No.
    I actually like that they represent a counter balance.
    But I absolutely understand why Fauci moved on to more likley studies and people to get at the actual answer.
    Do you even know what the Proximal Origin paper is about and what it claims?

  11. #40336
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    Do you even know what the Proximal Origin paper is about and what it claims?
    Yes.
    I do.
    It says mostly what I have been saying all along.


    Do you understand what it says and why?
    When the word sequence is used without context, what question should you IMMEDIATELY ask?

  12. #40337
    Veteran InRareForm's Avatar
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    Great, just when there is no more testing and research , new infectious variant emerges

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/arctu...004116935.html

  13. #40338
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    I'm on day 4 of COVID isolation, very mild progression for me so far. My main concern is not getting my wife infected.

    I'll keep masking in crowded public places because I'd like to mitigate the chances of infection/reinfection for me and for others.

    The correlation between COVID and a large host of conditions -- diabetes, heart disease, thrombosis/stroke, immune dysregulation and autoimmunity -- keeps getting stronger.



  14. #40339
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Great, just when there is no more testing and research , new infectious variant emerges

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/arctu...004116935.html
    Partly agree, partly disagree.

    Not having a national health care system like the UK or Israel made data collection a challenge to begin with, now that the political will to maintain it has dissipated, so will awareness of the ongoing risks and impacts. No data, no problem.

    OTOH, Brandon managed to find $5B in the HHS budget for the development of new vaccines and monoclonals, and private sector/academic research continues. Hopefully we get some pancoronavirus vaccines, some nasal vaccines, something that confers sterilizing immunity, so that, in principle, we can start to manage the ongoing public health problem SARS2 still presents. Biden's vax only approach is artificially narrow, but it's not nothing, and it could lead to a breakthrough.

    "Live with COVID, die for the good of the economy" continues to be the tacit ethic here

  15. #40340
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    In terms of sequence and epitope expression, the XBB omicron subvariant is now as distant from wild-type SARS-CoV-2 as SARS-CoV-2 is from SARS-CoV, such that XBB should probably be called SARS-CoV-3
    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...138-X/fulltext

  16. #40341
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    I'm on day 4 of COVID isolation, very mild progression for me so far. My main concern is not getting my wife infected.

    I'll keep masking in crowded public places because I'd like to mitigate the chances of infection/reinfection for me and for others.

    The correlation between COVID and a large host of conditions -- diabetes, heart disease, thrombosis/stroke, immune dysregulation and autoimmunity -- keeps getting stronger.


    get well…

  17. #40342
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    thanks

    I'm symptom free today, but still testing positive.

  18. #40343
    Against Home Schooling Ef-man's Avatar
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    thanks

    I'm symptom free today, but still testing positive.
    That sounds positive.

    Get well and continued success in not getting anyone ill!

  19. #40344
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    That sounds positive.

    Get well and continued success in not getting anyone ill!
    appreciate the kind words, I'm feeling basically OK today. I'm lucky to have gone so long without getting it, and glad I got the bivalent booster.

  20. #40345
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Increased risk of autoimmune diseases, in triplicate.

    When we published our comprehensive review of Long Covid earlier this year, the evidence for elevated risk of autoimmune diseases had not been established. That’s now changed. There are three large cohort studies that provide strong support of the “substantially increased risk of developing a diverse spectrum of new-onset autoimmune diseases.”


    The Table below is the summary of the 3 reports (here, here and here) that come from 3 different countries, each with matched control groups. The increased risk of multiple new autoimmune conditions is fairly consistent, about 20-40%.









    The analysis of the data from the United States is notable because it considered and adjusted for competing risks, that is one or more severe outcomes that could compete with the outcome of interest. Before this adjustment, as seen below, the risk for the spectrum of autoimmune disease ranged from about 2-3 fold (hazard ratio at far right, adjusted).












    And here is the corresponding Figure












    When competing risks were factored in there was still a significant increased risk, but more in keeping with the other 2 reports (20-40%). The cohort analyzed excluded any individual who had received a Covid vaccine.












    The analysis par ioned the cases and controls as to whether they had severe Covid (hospitalized) or were out-patients. The risk was more elevated in the people with mild to moderate Covid, as seen below. Somewhat surprising, given the higher incidence of autoimmune disease among women and younger age groups, there were no substantial overall differences noted by age, sex, or race, but specific autoimmune diseases did vary (e.g. Behcet’s disease, dermatomyositis, systemic sclerosis and mixed connective tissue disease excess only found in women; systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE) in Asians; psoriasis and ankylosing spondylitis in Blacks). In contrast, the other 2 studies reported a somewhat higher incidence of new autoimmune diseases among women and the German study showed a higher risk among in-patients. None of the 3 reports had data for the effect of vaccination.












    In contrast with respect to risk according to severity of Covid, the German study












    The US report concluded: “Given the large sample size and relatively modest effects these findings should be replicated in an independent dataset.” Well now this finding has been seen in triplicate and it appears to provide unequivocal support for the link (an association, not yet established as cause and effect) between Covid and subsequent risk of developing autoimmune diseases.
    https://erictopol.substack.com/p/the...-of-autoimmune

  21. #40346
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Knock on effects may include the bolded.

    Lymphocytopenia is a total lymphocyte count of < 1000/mcL ( 1 × 109/L) in adults or < 3000/mcL (< 3 × 109/L) in children < 2 years. Sequelae include opportunistic infections and an increased risk of malignant and autoimmune disorders. If the complete blood count reveals lymphocytopenia, testing for immunodeficiency and analysis of lymphocyte subpopulations should follow, usually after the patient has recovered from any acute event. Treatment is directed at the underlying disorder.

    Etiology:

    Acquired lymphocytopenia can occur with a number of other disorders (see table Causes of Lymphocytopenia).
    The most common causes include


    • Protein-energy undernutrition
    • HIV infection
    • COVID-19
    • Certain other viral infections
    https://www.msdmanuals.com/en-sg/pro...ymphocytopenia

  22. #40347
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Increased short term risk of shingles.

    n= 1,221,343

    Kaplan–Meier curve analysis (log-rank p < 0.05) results indicated that the risk of HZ remained significantly higher in patients with COVID-19 compared with those without COVID-19. Finally, the higher risk of HZ in the COVID-19 cohort compared with that in the non-COVID-19 cohort remained consistent across subgroup analyses regardless of vaccine status, age, or sex. The risk of HZ within a 12-month follow-up period was significantly higher in patients who had recovered from COVID-19 compared with that in the control group. This result highlights the importance of carefully monitoring HZ in this population and suggests the potential benefit of the HZ vaccine for patients with COVID-19.
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jmv.28745

  23. #40348
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    COVID infection appears to unlock proinflammatory human endogenous retroviruses (HERVs), possibly contributing to the long COVID secondary pandemic.

    Altogether, these data indicate that HERV-W ENV does not simply represent a biomarker of COVID-19 severity or evolution but is also likely to be a superimposed pathogenic player contributing to the disease severity and may help to explain the inter-individual variability in COVID-19 manifestations. In addition, it may play a role in the clinical evolution with possible long-termpathology as seen with the now emerging post-COVID secondary pandemic representing millions of patients suffering from various symptoms and long-term disabling pathology for which no rationalized understanding nor therapeutic perspective can be proposed to date. In face of this challenging situation, data from the present study strongly suggest HERV-W ENV as a marker of severity and as a potential therapeutic target for personalized medical approaches in in COVID-19 associated syndromes.
    https://www.cell.com/iscience/pdf/S2...23)00681-8.pdf

  24. #40349
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    COVID is a vascular disease with chronic dimensions.

    The results point toward the existence of a widespread and long-lasting pathological process in the vasculature following mild COVID-19 disease, with heterogeneous individual responses, some of which may be triggered by an autoimmune response to COVID-19.
    https://www.mdpi.com/2077-0383/12/6/2123

  25. #40350
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    With as widespread and all the variation involved I may have had it and not known it because vaccinated.
    No symptoms. Never tested positive with the nasal swab test. But very well should have antibodies.
    I only know about 3 folks who have not gotten it (gotten it means symptoms and + antigen test)
    Six people, all older folks, died. But I have a bunch of older relatives with friends so that may be skewed.
    I have also know older folks who waltzed through it and all were vaccinated at least twice.

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