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  1. #51
    Cassius Clay
    Guest
    Let's say this team was capped out and DRob retired. Then what?

    Oh, I know. Then we at Pop because he didn't plan for DRob's retirement.

    Damn, they took a shot at landing a star through free agency and still were able to address their all-important 'needs.'

    Face it, you guys will whenever anything doesn't go perfectly for the Spurs and pin the blame solely on the front office.

    Anyways, wtf were the Spurs supposed to have done differently? All I've seen have been rants about how this 'plan' was so horrid. What was the great alternative?

  2. #52
    CarnacTheMagnificent
    Guest
    I am still glad we didn't get him..I just think the guy is a bad egg and let's face it..he had nothing to gain by coming here and everything to lose..from credibility with other players in the NBA, to his status as the leagues best PG if we failed to repeat, to money.
    He had nothing to gain? How about a le?
    He's NEVER going to win a le in NJ.
    He'd have a much better chance to win it alll with the Spurs than the Nets.
    Money was no issue, and he would not have lost as much credibility with other players as you think.
    I hear people say that Payton and Malone "sold out" to go to the Lakers.
    I respect what they did.
    First, they took less money.
    Second, the took lesser roles.
    Third, what were they supposed to do? Payton stay in Milwaukee? Would you waste your final days away in Milwaukee?
    Or how about Malone? Do you really want to stay with a team that's completely rebuilding, and force them to reall put off serious rebuiling?
    They went to a better situation, as would any sane person. Kidd would have come to a better situation, albeit not as much better situation compared to Payton's and Malone's situations.

  3. #53
    Whottt
    Guest
    You just don't get it...

    If Kidd had come here and we won a le what would he have proven? That he is good enough to win a le on a team that just won one? The best PG in the NBA had to go to a team that had just won a le to get his ring?

    The money wasn't a factor? I disagree, I think Kidd stands to make a ton more money in the NY/NJ market..regardless of what the Nets are paying him.

    Respect from his peers? I think you are mistaken...No one was gonna think of Kidd as some kind of champion if he came here to get his ring...No one is going to percieve Payton and Malone as the men behind LA winning...just replacements for worn out parts...

    Payton and Malone did sell out..but not to the degree Kidd would have had he come here...I mean the Lakers did not finish last year as the best team in the NBA...Payton and Malone are no longer considered the best at their positions in the NBA(IMO that assumption is wrong when it comes to Payton..he is still the best)

    You hear people saying that about them because people are thinking that about them...

    I can't think of a single time in NBA history two teams have met in the finals and the best player on the losing team joined the winning team the very next season...That's something Samaki Walker does...not Jason Kidd...and we see how Samaki is viewed around the league...yeah winning that ring as LA's starting PF sure earned him a ton of respect didn't it?(and before you start, it's different with Horry if he comes here...Horry's got a ton of rings..he has nothing to prove)


    You have a problem with my points and that is fine..but where is Kidd now that it's all over? Exactly where I and many other claimed he would be for much of the season..inspite of "insiders" claiming otherwise.

    There is a right way to win and a wrong way..and when you are considered the best PG in the NBA you are expected to get your ring by leading your team to a ring...not the team you just lost to in the finals.

    Kidd gets it...why don't you?

    Edit: Re your post at the other forum...you can say Parker isn't as good as Kidd all you want..but what you cannot prove is that Kidd is a better shooter than Parker, that Kidd can mount any semblance of defense on Parker(and before you argue that with me..check the sig)..or that he could have lead us to a le with his style of play...

    It's all an ASSumption on your part with no basis in fact.

    What is a fact is that Parker was good enough to be the starting PG on an NBA champion at the expense of Jason Kidd...all the while going up against an AS roster of PG's.

    That's the fact Jack!

  4. #54
    CarnacTheMagnificent
    Guest
    Uh oh, here we go again...

    If Kidd had come here and we won a le what would he have proven? That he is good enough to win a le on a team that just won one? The best PG in the NBA had to go to a team that had just won a le to get his ring?
    Sure, that's one way to look at it. But the best point guard needs the right players around him. Stockton can't lead a team to a le. By definition, a point guard is a supporting player. That's why i don't think Kidd would be seen by his peers as selling out to win a le.

    The money wasn't a factor? I disagree, I think Kidd stands to make a ton more money in the NY/NJ market..regardless of what the Nets are paying him.
    Kidd will get the same endorsments he has now. Nike is not going to abandon him just because he moves to SA. Beside, signing a contract over a 100 million dollars, how much more do you need? Once you get over 100 million, there's too much to notice a difference.

    Respect from his peers? I think you are mistaken...No one was gonna think of Kidd as some kind of champion if he came here to get his ring...No one is going to percieve Payton and Malone as the men behind LA winning...just replacements for worn out parts...Payton and Malone did sell out..but not to the degree Kidd would have had he come here...I mean the Lakers did not finish last year as the best team in the NBA...Payton and Malone are no longer considered the best at their positions in the NBA(IMO that assumption is wrong when it comes to Payton..he is still the best)
    Again, what do you expect them to do? Be a man, and sign with the Heat, or the Bucks, or the Clippers? Why wouldn't you go to a team that has a chance to win it all, and live in a fun city? Ask yorself what you'd do. But if Shaq and Kobe are healthy (and not in the hole), most everyone would expect the Lakers to win it all. That's not a popular opinion here, but then why didn't Payton and Malone sell out here?

    You hear people saying that about them because people are thinking that about them...

    I can't think of a single time in NBA history two teams have met in the finals and the best player on the losing team joined the winning team the very next season...That's something Samaki Walker does...not Jason Kidd...
    So what? If I was Kidd, and I'm not, I think the better situation would have been the Spurs. If he thought that, he would have come. Players can shoose to play wherever they want, and just because it might look funny going to a team that beat you, if it puts you in a better situation, a player has a right to do that.

    You have a problem with my points and that is fine..but where is Kidd now that it's all over? Exactly where I and many other claimed he would be for much of the season..inspite of "insiders" claiming otherwise.
    No, you said it wold have been a mistake to bring him here. The fact is, the Spurs wanted him. They offered him a contract. Duncan was aloso on board, and Malik said he was on board. The fact that the Spurs persued him should tell you something, Whott. I never said it was a slam dunk. If you thought Kidd was going to stay, good for you. I've never been one to say where he should play. I just said where I wanted him to be, and why it made sense. My agruments went along with what the Spurs attempted. Can you say that?

  5. #55
    Whottt
    Guest
    Check the edit on my previous post

  6. #56
    Whottt
    Guest
    Actually Carnac, I said both..I said it would be a mistake to bring him here and I also said he wouldn't be here when it was all said and done.

    If you look back in the archives you will see me directly responding to Dusty when he was saying Kidd is coming get usd to it..

    I made a 1000 word post on why I disputed it..

    Argue with me all you want but Kidd isn't here is he?

    You can say players don't owe their teams loyalty and technically you are right...but the spirit of athletics is to your job for the team that drafted you, unless you have a really good reason not too..and you damn sure don't jump ship to the team that just beat you.

    IMO Payton and Malone did not come here because of the fact we won a le..in fact I think if you do some research you will find quote from both of them during the past year and FA period in which they both say they wouldn't play for a team that just won a le..IMO playing for the 3 time champs one year removed is still selling out though....They sold out but not as badly as they could have...

    And I also disagree on endorsements...Kidd would have lost endorsements had he come here..I have no proof of it..but I find it interesting E BRand accepted Miami's offer because of a shoe deal he would get if he played there(allegedly).

    And part of the reason Kidd stayed in NJ was loyalty...he could have gone to a different team if he had wanted too IMO..if he is as great as you guys claim...he could have wound up back in Dallas...You don't think Thorn takes Nash and another 6 million dollar Mav for Kidd rather than lose him ?

  7. #57
    CarnacTheMagnificent
    Guest
    Kidd gets it...why don't you?

    Edit: Re your post at the other forum...you can say Parker isn't as good as Kidd all you want..but what you cannot prove is that Kidd is a better shooter than Parker, that Kidd can mount any semblance of defense on Parker(and before you argue that with me..check the sig)..or that he could have lead us to a le with his style of play...
    It's all an ASSumption on your part with no basis in fact.
    can you show many how many times Parker has been named to the all-nba team? How many times he's been an MVP candidate?

    Then end of freaking story.

    What is a fact is that Parker was good enough to be the starting PG on an NBA champion at the expense of Jason Kidd...all the while going up against an AS roster of PG's.

    That's the fact Jack!
    So did Derek Fisher. In fact, more times than tony parker did. I guess that means that Derek Fisher is better than Parker, who is better than Kidd.

  8. #58
    CarnacTheMagnificent
    Guest
    Whott, my whole arguments weren't neccessarily if Kidd was the obvious choice, but just that he would not be a bad thing.
    You thought Kidd coming here would be bad for the Spurs, and they should not consider him.
    The Spurs pursused him, like they should have. Like I said they should have. You said it was a bad idea for them to pursue Kidd. Well, they did.
    What drove Kidd's decision is besides the point.

  9. #59
    Whottt
    Guest
    I can show you a long list of All NBA players that don't have rings even when they played on great teams...and I can show you an equally long list of non all NBA players that got the job done when they had too.


    And Derek Fisher was never the second leading scorer on his team for an entire season and post season.

    The argument isn't which is the better PG..Kidd is......but that doesn't mean he's a better fit for this team..that is pure speculation on your part..

    The argument is which one is the better value..has a brighter future.

    Quote all the assist totals you want..but we outpassed the Nets in the finals..and we out shot them as well..Parker shot at a better PCT than Kidd..Parker defended Kidd better than Kidd defended Parker. It's just that simple..what Parker has we need more than what Kidd has...It's never been about which one is the better PG...

  10. #60
    CarnacTheMagnificent
    Guest
    And Derek Fisher was never the second leading scorer on his team for an entire season and post season.

    The argument isn't which is the better PG..Kidd is......but that doesn't mean he's a better fit for this team..that is pure speculation on your part..
    OK, now we're getting on the same page. I understand your thinking, although you're claim that Kidd would not be a good fir for this team is also pure speculation. Would you not agree? Why is it that EVERY player loves playing with Kidd? He makes great decisions and he put his players in great situations ALL THE TIME. To say that his game wouldn't fly is more hopeful thinking.

    The argument is which one is the better value..has a brighter future.
    OK, again, I see your premise, and I agree with the premise. But not this particular idea. Kidd would have given you a better chance to win now. Parker is not a player that can control games like Kidd can. Kidd was the heart and soul for the Nets the last two years, and is a bonifed star. Parker might be one, but we don't know. We know what Kidd can do.

    Quote all the assist totals you want..but we outpassed the Nets in the finals..and we out shot them as well..Parker shot at a better PCT than Kidd..Parker defended Kidd better than Kidd defended Parker. It's just that simple..what Parker has we need more than what Kidd has...It's never been about which one is the better PG...
    OK, blah blah blah again. If KMart hits some shots, if Jefferson iits some shots, then the Nets are a better passing team. Kidd can set his players up, but you can't fault Kidd for not actually hitting the shots for his teammates.

  11. #61
    Whottt
    Guest
    True many of you advocated going after Kidd all year long..

    Many of us claimed doing so would cause conflict with Parker, that Kidd probably wouldn't come..and that our money and efforts were better spent elsewhere....

    Now while we can't actually prove Kidd would have made us a better team...

    We can definitely prove...A.That Parker indeed was against Kidd coming here and B. That Kidd didn't come here.

    So who was more on the right when it was all said and done?

    The pro Kidds or the anti Kidds?

    No I can't fault Kidd for not hitting the shots of his teamates..but what I can point out is that he doesn't turn ty shooters into championship shooters, nor can he shoot his team to a championship....

    So when we pay him all that money...what makes you think he is gonna make our shooters any better than he made those on his own team? And therein lies the essence of the anti Kidd argument...who exactly is he gonna be making better when we lose all our guys because we are paying him 15 million?

  12. #62
    CarnacTheMagnificent
    Guest
    what, it's not about who was right, the pro-Kidds or the con-Kidds.
    I wasn't trying to predict what would happen, maybe you're confused with my turban.
    I was trying to say whether or not it was a good idea.
    Congratulaitons, you guessed right.

  13. #63
    Whottt
    Guest
    Thanks, it's a gift..

    On a team with Tim Duncan...where open looks by perimeter players are not scarce...where Duncan is often doubleteamed even without the ball...

    Our money is better spent on a DROB replacement and high quality shooters...not passing. Shooting/Scoring is the needed ingredient...

    And I would like to go on record here as saying something else..I feel like we are dropping the ball with Horry...you can't just treat players like they are afterthoughts and garbage and that is exactly what we have done with Horry...it isn't gonna surprise me if he ends up going back to LA for less money inspite of a preference to stay in Texas...I think we could land some of these FA's if we get a guy with some sales ability in the FO(and no I am not saying Pop or RC should be fired only that we bring someone else in for the purpose of being a frontman when trying to attract FA's)...

  14. #64
    MannyIsGod
    Guest
    I think the problem here is that many people confuse dicussions here with the ones that the spurs have in planning their future.

    HERE this offseason was christianed as a flat out attempt at a superstar, yet, there were questions the entire time at wether the spurs would go after one superstar player, or distrubte the money among a few to improve their team.

    The best case scenario was a superstar.

    Didn't happen.

    That doesn't mean you fail the class if you don't score a perfect score!!!!!

    I know many of you will continue to hand out your assesment of this offseason before the season even starts, before the spurs have concluded their signings. Fine.

    Do what you want, I'm sick of posting the same over and over just to try to get some of you see logic.

    However, I will say this. Fans have continuely questioned our front office only to come away with egg on their face.

  15. #65
    CarnacTheMagnificent
    Guest
    Whott, I'm not so sure about Horry.
    First, I think the Spurs might have bigger fish to fry. Maybe they're working on a bigger deal that might make Horry useless. We don't know the situation, so I think it's bad to second-guess.

  16. #66
    picnroll
    Guest
    Clippers pursue Warriors' Arenas

    By ART THOMPSON III
    The Orange County Register

    LOS ANGELES ? It is all but certain that the Clippers will have their third starting point guard in three years. The question now is, who will that be?

    The Clippers reportedly have made a six-year, $60 million offer to Golden State's restricted free agent Gilbert Arenas, who earlier received the same offer from the Washington Wizards. Neither team, however, has signed Arenas to an offer sheet that he could present to the Warriors.

    Arenas' agent, Dan Fegan met last Thursday with Clippers executive vice president Andy Roeser. A Clippers official said Sunday that the Clippers' offer to Arenas might not be as high as is being reported.

    If the Clippers, as expected, decline to match the six-year, $52 million offer sheet the Denver Nuggets signed Andre Miller to, Miller would leave through free agency one year after the Clippers declined to re-sign their starting point guard of two years, Jeff McInnis, who left for Portland.

    Another restricted free-agent guard that the team reportedly is interested in, should Arenas turn down its offer, is San Antonio's Speedy Claxton, who became more desirable with his stellar play in the NBA Finals.

    With the Clippers having matched the Miami Heat's six-year, $82 million offer sheet to power forward Elton Brand, the Heat now appears to have set its sights on Clippers small forward Lamar Odom, sending signals that it is prepared to present him with a six-year, $60 million offer sheet.

    The Clippers' agenda still stands at matching the six-year, $42 million offer sheet that the Utah Jazz gave to guard Corey Maggette and the Clippers were hoping to extend Odom's contract for similar terms. But Odom's agent, Jeff Schwartz, indicated this past weekend that that offer would be low and that Odom would opt to sign a one-year tender, instead.

    These impending deals not only have taken up a great deal of Roeser's time but also havetied his hands in regards to Eric Piatkowski, the Clippers' career-leading three-point shooter, who is an unrestricted free agent.

    Although there were reports last week that Piatkowski had severed his Clipper ties, there remains the possibility that something can be worked out. "Right now, we're playing it by ear,'' Piatkowski said Sunday. "A lot of teams still are not sure what they're going to do.''

  17. #67
    Ghost Writer
    Guest
    No fault's the front office for trying. I fault them for going through with the stupid plan in the first place.

    Piatkowski would be a nice pick up. Not one of the CLippers we were shooting for, but not a bad acquisition.



  18. #68
    MannyIsGod
    Guest
    The fact is that every move any front office makes is a gamble of sorts, this one has already paid off in one aspect even if we didn't get a superstar.

    Thats good enough for me.

  19. #69
    Admiral
    Guest
    They didn't expect to land Kidd, O'Neal or Brand. Those were longshots who they went after in hopes of a miracle hapenning. They weren't the must-have targets that some mistake it to be. -timvp
    I totally disagree. When the Fantasy Summer of 2003 plan was unveiled two years ago, there were numerous stars slated to be free agents in 2003. Surely you aren't suggesting that the Spurs would've initiated this plan if there were no potential superstar free agents.

    The Spurs wanted to land Kidd, O'Neal, or Brand. Period.

  20. #70
    Cassius Clay
    Guest
    Admiral you are so off it isn't even funny. They never 'expected to sign a star' this summer. Sure, they wanted to but but they were (and this may come as a shock to you) aware that there were no guarantees.

    So now you complain about the Spurs having a young core of players, a re-signed Tim Duncan, and have found a starting 5 in free agency and will work on bolstering the bench now.

    Go ahead and complain about this all you want. Rather foolish but then again you think John Hagee is A OK.

  21. #71
    Ghost Writer
    Guest
    Somewhere in between the complaints and the spin lies the truth about this summer.

    The bottom line is that we've retained the corp of a le team, slightly improved our center spot and have cap space.

    If you can get past missing on a star free agent signing, what's left is pretty d@mn good.

    Even I can admit that.


  22. #72
    Admiral
    Guest
    Admiral you are so off it isn't even funny. They never 'expected to sign a star' this summer. Sure, they wanted to but but they were (and this may come as a shock to you) aware that there were no guarantees. -Cassius Clay
    How do you know that, Marcus? It's just funny how nobody ever mentioned this before all of the stars turned us down. It sounds like self-preservation to me, but if you have it on good authority or can cite an article proving otherwise, I will certainly believe you. I would much rather learn something than be right.


    So now you complain about the Spurs having a young core of players, a re-signed Tim Duncan, and have found a starting 5 in free agency and will work on bolstering the bench now. -Cassius Clay
    WHEN HAVE I COMPLAINED ABOUT THIS?!? I think we will be fine, and we have a great shot at winning the le this year. When have I once complained about the roster?

    Go ahead and complain about this all you want. Rather foolish but then again you think John Hagee is A OK. -Cassius Clay
    Cute, Cassius. I stated that I didn't feel it was right to blast Hagee when I didn't know him personally or know the details of his ministry. I have learned that it's dangerous to do that, and was not going to label him a "fraud" like everyone else just because he is on TV. Unlike you and a lot of other Christians, I don't like to stereotype just because someone has different beliefs than I do. In the future, comments such as yours belong in the Club.

  23. #73
    Solid D
    Guest
    Reel in the Pike now, Pop.


  24. #74
    Cassius Clay
    Guest
    Oh little Admiral, I'll say what I want when I want and wherever I want.

  25. #75
    Ed Helicopter Jones
    Guest
    What caught my attention was the other guy discussed in the article. . .James Posey.


    Why wouldn't the Rockets want him back? Is he a free agent?

    That guy is a young, talented 3 that would make a great Spur.

    Anyone have the scoop on Posey?

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