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  1. #51
    Derrick White fanboy FkLA's Avatar
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    IMO Demarre spoke up at some point, Pop snapped back telling him he's not better than Marco or Brent, Demarre stood up for himself.

    Has anybody paid attention to the dynamic between Brent/Marco and Demarre? I've seen tweets from the Spurs page of him still being friendly with certain guys in shootaround. I also remember him interacting with guys on the bench when he was still dressing.

    I haven't paid attention but I'm guessing there's gotta be tension between him and the scrubs getting minutes over him.

  2. #52
    Veteran tbdog's Avatar
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    Lots of speculation in here. If Pop had a grudge, I would assume Carroll's agent would have leaked something, anything, to support his player can still play.

  3. #53
    Veteran gambit1990's Avatar
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    but if demarre isn’t getting playing time because he’s so bad... then why did the spurs sign him?

  4. #54
    Hope springs eternal. SAGirl's Avatar
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    I wonder if Pop did the ask him if he thinks he is better then Forbes and say it in front of the team thing and he refused.
    I definitely have wondered if something similar to this is going on.

  5. #55
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    Nope. There's not a context in which that's a loyalty deal. A team promising a player a long-term deal if they opt out and them reneging on that after the player already opted out is essentially being a team version of Carlos Boozer or Marcus Morris. We all agree that they should not have even considered Pau opting out and re-signing as a viable way to get cap space. But the team not honoring their half of the deal after Pau did his half would have been WAAAAAAAY worse than anything they're "doing" to Carroll. Patty's deal that same year was arguably a loyalty contract. Maxing out Parker on his final extension despite him being in decline is an even better example of a loyalty contract. Pat Riley continuing to give Udonis Haslem contracts years after he stopped being an actual NBA player is a loyalty thing. Pau wasn't.

    I think you remember the events like Pau opting out then holding the Spurs hostage on a contract. The reality seems to be that Pau and the Spurs agreed to $37-39 Million in compensation in exchange for him opting out of his final year at just over $16 Million. Had Paul signed, the team would have signed Gasol to a three-year deal starting at just over $12 Million with the understanding that he'd probably not really play that final year. Remember that this with the idea in mind that Aldridge would be traded without a guarantee of a viable big and with Gasol coming off what might have been his best season since his first three years in LA. It wasn't a horrible plan, and that's before even getting into that Leonard was very likely pressuring the front office to get a better second fiddle than Aldridge. The Spurs probably correctly saw their le window as just being two years rather than the rest of Leonard's career and were willing to sacrifice that third year to assemble as much talent as possible. Still should have just had Pau opted in, but I get it.

    After that agreement, they were as locked in on the guaranteed money for Pau as they were on Morris after trading Bertans. Technically they could have backed out, but that wasn't the point to do it anymore. They should have just signed him for $19 Million per year and been done with it. It's not like Gasol would have minded. Despite what STers have said, the issue with Pau was never his APY. The team didn't need cap space. Pau didn't keep the Spurs from signing Dedmon or Simmons or anyone like that. It would have been paying Pau or not having him, and for the first two years, Gasol was very good for the team, and it's hindsight to think the team was better without him before he fell apart (though he did have exploitable flaws even when he was a strong net-positive). The real problem is that the Spurs have managed to carry dead cap space every year since 2016-2017. If they buy Carroll out, they'll be carrying it again for a sixth and seventh consecutive season (and a 10 consecutive season of paying dead money even if it's not on the cap sheet). It's a vicious cycle that will only end once the team stops giving partial guarantees to older players and take all of the money they pay guys on the relevant years.

    That's one of a few reasons why they shouldn't be thinking about buying Carroll out now. I'm as critical of PATFO as any non-edgelord, but this cry of sympathy for him is ridiculous. He's getting paid to be on the roster, not to play however much he wants. He doesn't have a right to a buyout. If he wants one, he should make concessions for it, preferably huge ones. that dude. He's not Kunta Kinte. If he wants a different situation, I think PATFO would gladly tear up his deal and let him go. If he wants his money, then he should just sit his ass down and stop acting oppressed.
    Also, read what I wrote again and how I wrote it. I purposely separated Pau from loyalty contracts for this reason. I did include Pau specifically to make a point about SA doing right by players in all facets however.

  6. #56
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    The scary thing is we won't get another free agent as long as pop isa here. This stuff gets around and other players will steer clear

  7. #57
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    LOL. That's the perfect righteous position to take... if you don't mind the message it sends to future FA's. Maybe they don't have any obligation to "do right" by a role-player. But ing up the remainder of a man's career goes a bit beyond that. I gave PATFO the benefit of a doubt when it came to the handling of the whole Kawhi situation, and I blamed a lot of it on Uncle's bad influence. like this makes me question that. I know it makes a lot of other people question whether SA is a desirable FA destination anymore.
    Sorry, I missed all this. The Spurs aren't messing up Carroll's career by not waiving him. They're paying him to have the right to sit or use him. If he wants to break his contract, I think the Spurs would be fine. But no one outside of some people on ST think the "right thing to do" is to release him without a drastic buyout. The closest thing to this type of waiving we've seen would probably be Josh Smith several years ago. It's not common at all. Even waiving a vet outside of their final year is abnormal. It happened with Pau, maybe Kevin Martin and Josh Bibby. There are probably others, but all three of those required buyouts, with Bibby agreeing to forgo his entire final year's salary.

    At the very LEAST, committing that "dead cap" you talk about to a player who can't get any minutes is incompetence. (They did the same basic thing when they gave Gasol that big contract, but they gave him a big payoff - not the pittance you insist they should toss to Carroll. But that's a whole other story.) The way Pop handled the NT this summer was incompetence. The way he's handled rotations this year is incompetence. If I was trying to tear down a franchise, the plan would look a lot like this.
    The commitment to the cap for Carroll was brute incompetence. We all agree there. We already agree about the rotations. But releasing Carroll this season would be very different than what happened with Pau, who's final year was almost certainly always a fake year like Duncan's final year, McDyess' final year and so on. Carroll's third year is pretty similar, but his second year is definitely a real year that they expected him to be on the team. If this were next year, I think we'd all be cool with Carroll just giving up the standard prorated min that most buyout guys get.

    You can be as pompous as you want about Carroll, but don't think that other players in the league will see things the same way as you. They actually have skin in the game, and to anyone looking in from the outside, this place is a ing dumpster fire. , if I was a guy declaring for the draft, I would seriously hope the Spurs didn't call my name on draft night. But FA's have a choice. The team needs role players too. They aren't going to want to risk getting treated this way - not to mention the way YOU want to handle things -
    It doesn't matter if players like it or not. Iggy just got a bunch of money to do nothing but badmouth the team paying him and got rewarded with even more money. There's no sense of fairness here. It's not pomposity to say a guy has to give up most of his guaranteed money to get a buyout. It's actually standard, insofar as there can be a standard. Do I think people are weirded out by the Spurs not playing Carroll? Yes. As I said, we ALL are weirded out by it. But that doesn't mean people think like you do. I don't anticipate the Spurs not releasing Carroll without a buyout to hurt the Spurs with free agents at all. They have much bigger problems that will prevent old ring-chasers from signing with them in the future.

  8. #58
    Veteran sasaint's Avatar
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    Sorry, I missed all this. The Spurs aren't messing up Carroll's career by not waiving him. They're paying him to have the right to sit or use him. If he wants to break his contract, I think the Spurs would be fine. But no one outside of some people on ST think the "right thing to do" is to release him without a drastic buyout. The closest thing to this type of waiving we've seen would probably be Josh Smith several years ago. It's not common at all. Even waiving a vet outside of their final year is abnormal. It happened with Pau, maybe Kevin Martin and Josh Bibby. There are probably others, but all three of those required buyouts, with Bibby agreeing to forgo his entire final year's salary.



    The commitment to the cap for Carroll was brute incompetence. We all agree there. We already agree about the rotations. But releasing Carroll this season would be very different than what happened with Pau, who's final year was almost certainly always a fake year like Duncan's final year, McDyess' final year and so on. Carroll's third year is pretty similar, but his second year is definitely a real year that they expected him to be on the team. If this were next year, I think we'd all be cool with Carroll just giving up the standard prorated min that most buyout guys get.



    It doesn't matter if players like it or not. Iggy just got a bunch of money to do nothing but badmouth the team paying him and got rewarded with even more money. There's no sense of fairness here. It's not pomposity to say a guy has to give up most of his guaranteed money to get a buyout. It's actually standard, insofar as there can be a standard. Do I think people are weirded out by the Spurs not playing Carroll? Yes. As I said, we ALL are weirded out by it. But that doesn't mean people think like you do. I don't anticipate the Spurs not releasing Carroll without a buyout to hurt the Spurs with free agents at all. They have much bigger problems that will prevent old ring-chasers from signing with them in the future.
    Old ring-chasers sign with teams that, you know, have a chance to ring. That won't be the Spurs for a long time. The issue is the class of FAs a team in our position needs and would like to sign. We want to have a shot at some solid rotation guys or young up-and-comers to join the team for the long haul. With the Old Asshole around running rotations like only he can, and screwing Carroll, the Spurs will never attract any FA we want or need. Up until the last three seasons, we were good enough that signing an old ring-chaser was something that could bolster the roster for a short-term shot in the arm. We need to focus on a completely different type of player now, and those guys will go ANYWHERE else.

  9. #59
    Veteran emanueldavidginobili's Avatar
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  10. #60
    #21 timtonymanu's Avatar
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    Pop’s “fall in line” philosophy is just too outdated for being a coach in today’s NBA.

    He has these guys playing like robots out there and everyone is just tuning him out. Seems like there’s lowkey friction between Rudy and pop too.

  11. #61
    Kill4Fun SpurSpike's Avatar
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    Pop’s “fall in line” philosophy is just too outdated for being a coach in today’s NBA.

    He has these guys playing like robots out there and everyone is just tuning him out. Seems like there’s lowkey friction between Rudy and pop too.
    Iv noticed that as well.

  12. #62
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    Pop’s “fall in line” philosophy is just too outdated for being a coach in today’s NBA.

    He has these guys playing like robots out there and everyone is just tuning him out. Seems like there’s lowkey friction between Rudy and pop too.
    good. We need to get more people calling out Senilovich. A mutiny by the players would be great

  13. #63
    Chopper Ed Helicopter Jones's Avatar
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    but if demarre isn’t getting playing time because he’s so bad... then why did the spurs sign him?
    True. And it's not like we're trotting a bunch of rock stars out there every night. They say most new Spurs need a year to acclimate to the system. Carroll didn't even get 20 games.

  14. #64
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Old ring-chasers sign with teams that, you know, have a chance to ring. That won't be the Spurs for a long time. The issue is the class of FAs a team in our position needs and would like to sign. We want to have a shot at some solid rotation guys or young up-and-comers to join the team for the long haul. With the Old Asshole around running rotations like only he can, and screwing Carroll, the Spurs will never attract any FA we want or need. Up until the last three seasons, we were good enough that signing an old ring-chaser was something that could bolster the roster for a short-term shot in the arm. We need to focus on a completely different type of player now, and those guys will go ANYWHERE else.

    The Spurs aren't "screwing Carroll" by not playing him. It's weird and doesn't make sense, but they are paying him, likely more than anyone else would be paying him. That he's apparently in the dog house isn't automatically everyone's fault but his, and if he has the stance that he should be released just so he can pick his club and get his money too, then the Spurs absolutely should hold onto him. Carroll isn't getting minutes so someone like Trey Lyles can. "Up-and-comers" are much more likely to look at Lyles' starting spot more than DMC's DNP-CDs. The Spurs are giving a dude a chance despite signing him late in free agency, despite his bad history and despite them having already signed two guys at his position just days before. If anything, the Walker situation would be the bigger issue.

  15. #65
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    The bottom line is, it's a bad look for the organization. He's clearly in decline, but whether he's still a useful player can't be determined in 135 scattered minutes on this sinking ship.

    Sure, they offered him the best contract, but that doesn't give them the right to banish him to exile like they have and as a credible veteran player, who's been around, don't think this is going unnoticed around the league.

    He also has a history of being outspoken and I hope he calls out this organization publicly when this latest saga is over . . . it's the old story about being the common denominator. At some point, when you have this many issues, you need to look in the mirror.

  16. #66
    what uganda do about it? Joseph Kony's Avatar
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    I usually agree with most of Chinook's takes but man he is sniffing hard on this one

  17. #67
    Veteran sasaint's Avatar
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    The Spurs aren't "screwing Carroll" by not playing him. It's weird and doesn't make sense, but they are paying him, likely more than anyone else would be paying him. That he's apparently in the dog house isn't automatically everyone's fault but his, and if he has the stance that he should be released just so he can pick his club and get his money too, then the Spurs absolutely should hold onto him. Carroll isn't getting minutes so someone like Trey Lyles can. "Up-and-comers" are much more likely to look at Lyles' starting spot more than DMC's DNP-CDs. The Spurs are giving a dude a chance despite signing him late in free agency, despite his bad history and despite them having already signed two guys at his position just days before. If anything, the Walker situation would be the bigger issue.
    I don't pretend to know what's behind the weirdness, but I admit I have been laboring under the assumption that the Spurs and Demarre could reach a reasonable, mutually agreeable buyout. Maybe that's just a wrong assumption. And yeah, if I were a PATFO apologist, I might be inclined to view the situation in the light most favorable to the Old Asshole; maybe Carroll is perfectly happy to make unreasonable buy-out demands and accept paychecks and DNPs because he knows he is washed. That's about as likely as anything in this mondo bizarro.

    I do not think this season in all of its facets will induce the kind of FAs we need to sign here.

  18. #68
    Believe. KimmyGib's Avatar
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    It's kind of strange how in Pop's personal ideology, there's such a strong opposition to the idea of the rigid old white man with too much influence being in power too long. Time to look in the mirror old man.

  19. #69
    Spur-taaaa TDMVPDPOY's Avatar
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    giving pop the benefit of the doubt, still living on reputation of 5 rings,

    hasnt done since duncan retire
    hasnt done since kawhi left
    hasnt done when given team usa
    hasnt done now
    looks like he doesnt give a

  20. #70
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    It's kind of strange how in Pop's personal ideology, there's such a strong opposition to the idea of the rigid old white man with too much influence being in power too long. Time to look in the mirror old man.
    this 100%

  21. #71
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I don't pretend to know what's behind the weirdness, but I admit I have been laboring under the assumption that the Spurs and Demarre could reach a reasonable, mutually agreeable buyout. Maybe that's just a wrong assumption. And yeah, if I were a PATFO apologist, I might be inclined to view the situation in the light most favorable to the Old Asshole; maybe Carroll is perfectly happy to make unreasonable buy-out demands and accept paychecks and DNPs because he knows he is washed. That's about as likely as anything in this mondo bizarro.

    I do not think this season in all of its facets will induce the kind of FAs we need to sign here.
    I don't disagree. The Spurs might be the least attractive team in the league to sign with right now. Maybe Cleveland, Orlando and Detroit are worse, but it's not by a ton. The Spurs desperately needed Murray to develop into a star and be an ambassador to the new crop of players. Even if Becky seems like she'll be a good coach, I don't think she'll be a draw for players to sign up. As crazy as it might have seemed a couple of years ago, I think the Spurs are going to have to rebuild their whole brand. Without a legit star (meaning not just some high-lottery pick), that's going to take some time. So long as they have money to offer, someone will take it. They just need to make sure that they sign guys who can actually fit into their new culture.

  22. #72
    Veteran sasaint's Avatar
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    I don't disagree. The Spurs might be the least attractive team in the league to sign with right now. Maybe Cleveland, Orlando and Detroit are worse, but it's not by a ton. The Spurs desperately needed Murray to develop into a star and be an ambassador to the new crop of players. Even if Becky seems like she'll be a good coach, I don't think she'll be a draw for players to sign up. As crazy as it might have seemed a couple of years ago, I think the Spurs are going to have to rebuild their whole brand. Without a legit star (meaning not just some high-lottery pick), that's going to take some time. So long as they have money to offer, someone will take it. They just need to make sure that they sign guys who can actually fit into their new culture.
    Yeah, the culture is not just dead, but moldering in the grave. I expressed concerns about that even during Tim's last season. But now they will have to start from scratch. They have to start with an entire new regime - one that can hopefully retain some connection with the great heritage of the Spurs while setting a fresh new course. They need Bud (and possibly Sean Marks) desperately, but I cannot imagine either of those guys returning to this corpse. They need a great - as well as - charismatic new leader to resurrect and re-brand the corpse. Until then the maggots will feed.

  23. #73
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    Yeah, the culture is not just dead, but moldering in the grave. I expressed concerns about that even during Tim's last season. But now they will have to start from scratch. They have to start with an entire new regime - one that can hopefully retain some connection with the great heritage of the Spurs while setting a fresh new course. They need Bud (and possibly Sean Marks) desperately, but I cannot imagine either of those guys returning to this corpse. They need a great - as well as - charismatic new leader to resurrect and re-brand the corpse. Until then the maggots will feed.
    I been saying since 2017 that this franchise needs a change of culture. The question is what kind of culture should that be?

  24. #74
    dump derozan Genovaswitness's Avatar
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    I been saying since 2017 that this franchise needs a change of culture. The question is what kind of culture should that be?
    could've had a great head start establishing culture had they given uncle dennis a little of what he wanted and outright offered kawhi the super max

  25. #75
    You Are Not Worthy ZeusWillJudge's Avatar
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    I been saying since 2017 that this franchise needs a change of culture. The question is what kind of culture should that be?


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