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  1. #226
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    You're right. I over-estimated. The number is closer to 6k more rather than 10k.



    Comfortable according to which standards? 300k doesn't go very far in a place like SF or NYC. Where do you draw the line at comfort? 200k? 100k?

    I hadn't done the math until today, which is why this is all present in mind. But for someone like me, I can't envision why anyone would vote for Bernie compared to Warren.
    easy warren is a fake

    she got caught lying many times already

    - pocahontas

    - bernie hates women

    - she also headed a state where Raytheon a military industrial giant prospered under her

    its not even close

  2. #227
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    You're right. I over-estimated. The number is closer to 6k more rather than 10k.

    Comfortable according to which standards? 300k doesn't go very far in a place like SF or NYC.
    yeah i dno about that. again, are we talking individual or household income? even if its household income, that would go quite far in either of those areas. while not universal, a typical rule of thumb is spending about 30% of monthly income on housing costs. 300k annual income leaves you with about 7k per month to go towards that. ballpark figures on a 30 year mortgage says you can get 1.5 million dollars of house on that income. i dont care where you live, that person is going to be just fine. if you're earning in the 96th percentile and aren't living comfortably, you're doing something very wrong imo

    Where do you draw the line at comfort? 200k? 100k?
    would depend on where you live. if you can buy a home and aren't living paycheck to paycheck i'd call that comfortable. comfortable doesnt mean lavish, of course

    I hadn't done the math until today, which is why this is all present in mind. But for someone like me, I can't envision why anyone would vote for Bernie compared to Warren.
    i mean, i preferred warren to sanders for almost the duration of this campaign season. its really been the last month or so that i've "defected" since she started to fall flat in the polls. i'd still be thrilled if warren got the nom. i'd consider it a win if either got the nod. i gave to warren's campaign before anybody elses, starting contributing to bernie more recently because he looks much more likely to come away with it between the two

  3. #228
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    yeah i dno about that. again, are we talking individual or household income? even if its household income, that would go quite far in either of those areas. while not universal, a typical rule of thumb is spending about 30% of monthly income on housing costs. 300k annual income leaves you with about 7k per month to go towards that. ballpark figures on a 30 year mortgage says you can get 1.5 million dollars of house on that income. i dont care where you live, that person is going to be just fine. if you're earning in the 96th percentile and aren't living comfortably, you're doing something very wrong imo


    would depend on where you live. if you can buy a home and aren't living paycheck to paycheck i'd call that comfortable. comfortable doesnt mean lavish, of course


    i mean, i preferred warren to sanders for almost the duration of this campaign season. its really been the last month or so that i've "defected" since she started to fall flat in the polls. i'd still be thrilled if warren got the nom. i'd consider it a win if either got the nod. i gave to warren's campaign before anybody elses, starting contributing to bernie more recently because he looks much more likely to come away with it between the two
    I know it may seem shocking but there are people who make 6 figures (single) and struggle to survive on that. Especially in some spots in California. my old family home got listed recently for around 1.5 million and it wasn't anything special (edit: just checked and it sold for 1.3M).
    Last edited by rasuo214; 02-20-2020 at 07:50 PM.

  4. #229
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    Like 200-300 per month. I think my deductible is $500 or $1000.
    So letís say $300. So $300 x 12 = $3600. Add in a deductible of $1000 and that total is $4600. So you are looking at a difference in what you pay annual (minimum) of $5400 not, the raw 10K.

    Beyond that, you still donít get 100% of stuff covered in insurance. You have a max out of pocket beyond your deductible. In reality, you wonít be paying much more at all vs what you pay today. It truly is a negligible amount unless you are really, truly wealthy.

    Sure some details are murky, but even raw basic math on what you pay know vs what we sort of know has been proposed the average family making less that 250K a year will see little to no real income difference. And potentially massive savings on if someone gets sick and that would have not been covered under existing plans.

    https://twocents.lifehacker.com/what...you-1839098294

    Beyond that, there are very real and tangible, yet hard to quantify benefits to society tied to health care. Itís not something totally worth discussing because itís hypothesis but itís not a stretch at all to see economic benefits directly tied to people being healthier and with full access to health care.

    So yeah, even if it means non-rich, but doing ok people have to pay a little bit more so our brothers and sisters that donít have the luxury of paying only $300 a month for health care because they donít have company paid programs or jobs that offer health benefits I am ok with it and you should be too.

    Edit: And that is if your 10K number is accurate which I do not believe that is the case.
    Last edited by DPG21920; 02-20-2020 at 07:47 PM.

  5. #230
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    I know it may seem shocking but there are people who make 6 figures (single) and struggle to survive on that. Especially in some spots in California. my old family home got listed recently for around 1.5 million and it wasn't anything special (edit: just checked and it sold for 1.3M).
    i lived in los angeles until about 7 months ago, i'm well aware of how high cost of living can be.

    "six figures" inclues a very wide range of incomes. its very different to be earning 115k per year and 300k per year.

    i didnt say that those people are exorbitantly wealthy or living lavishly. i said "comfortable." if you can buy a 1.5 million dollar home, even in a very pricey area like san francisco, and aren't living paycheck to paycheck (are able to put some money aside), i'd say you're pretty comfortable.

  6. #231
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    Also, do you have any clue how much your health insurance would cost if you didn’t get it subsidized by your company? You pay $300 a month now, but how can anyone leave their job knowing that if you leave and want COBRA, you would be paying $1000 - 2000 a MONTH to keep those benefits.

    You are trapped, people are trapped and many don’t have insurance which is unacceptable.

  7. #232
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Also, do you have any clue how much your health insurance would cost if you didnít get it subsidized by your company? You pay $300 a month now, but how can anyone leave their job knowing that if you leave and want COBRA, you would be paying $1000 - 2000 a MONTH to keep those benefits.

    You are trapped, people are trapped and many donít have insurance which is unacceptable.
    "why do you want to take people off the plans they like??!?"

    the reason people get coverage in the first place is basically to get some form of a cap/discount on out of pocket expenditures (you still have deductibles, copays, other out of pocket costs). you have to make sure that when you need help, you stay in network, which can be a pain. i was on my employer's plan and had to drive 65 miles for the nearest in-network specialist.

    yeah, M4A "takes away" that plan, but instead means you have zero out of pocket expenses which goes to the very reason people are willing to pay for insurance in the first place. M4A also means you're the only game in town, and so everybody is by default "in network" though you may be incentivized to go to a more remote location based on wait times, etc.

    it means you aren't beholden to your job because you have to worry about a lapse in coverage. it also means that you (or unions) no longer need to use your leverage or negotiating capital on health care since you already have it, letting you bargain for other benefits like wages or PTO

  8. #233
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    "why do you want to take people off the plans they like??!?"

    the reason people get coverage in the first place is basically to get some form of a cap/discount on out of pocket expenditures (you still have deductibles, copays, other out of pocket costs). you have to make sure that when you need help, you stay in network, which can be a pain. i was on my employer's plan and had to drive 65 miles for the nearest in-network specialist.

    yeah, M4A "takes away" that plan, but instead means you have zero out of pocket expenses which goes to the very reason people are willing to pay for insurance in the first place. M4A also means you're the only game in town, and so everybody is by default "in network" though you may be incentivized to go to a more remote location based on wait times, etc.
    Yeah. It’s really dumb. NO ONE likes their insurance. They like their doctors, but they hate insurance. This is the most simple and lovable plan.

  9. #234
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Yeah. It’s really dumb. NO ONE likes their insurance. They like their doctors, but they hate insurance. This is the most simple and lovable plan.
    it will have its flaws to be sure. but the current situation we have is completely broken tbh

  10. #235
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    So let’s say $300. So $300 x 12 = $3600. Add in a deductible of $1000 and that total is $4600. So you are looking at a difference in what you pay annual (minimum) of $5400 not, the raw 10K.

    Beyond that, you still don’t get 100% of stuff covered in insurance. You have a max out of pocket beyond your deductible. In reality, you won’t be paying much more at all vs what you pay today. It truly is a negligible amount unless you are really, truly wealthy.

    Sure some details are murky, but even raw basic math on what you pay know vs what we sort of know has been proposed the average family making less that 250K a year will see little to no real income difference. And potentially massive savings on if someone gets sick and that would have not been covered under existing plans.

    https://twocents.lifehacker.com/what...you-1839098294
    Ok, that makes total sense. And I was off on the 10k figure. I redid the math and got 6k, which is in the range of your $5400 so that all adds up. Thanks.

    Beyond that, there are very real and tangible, yet hard to quantify benefits to society tied to health care. It’s not something totally worth discussing because it’s hypothesis but it’s not a stretch at all to see economic benefits directly tied to people being healthier and with full access to health care.

    So yeah, even if it means non-rich, but doing ok people have to pay a little bit more so our brothers and sisters that don’t have the luxury of paying only $300 a month for health care because they don’t have company paid programs or jobs that offer health benefits I am ok with it and you should be too.

    Edit: And that is if your 10K number is accurate which I do not believe that is the case.
    This is more of where I have issues. Frankly, I don't give a about healthcare - which is largely a function of me being a healthy dude in his 30s. I think this is more a philosophic matter than anything else, but I'd rather that 5-10k increase go to infrastructure or subsidizing small business or something else. I just don't see a societal payoff in subsidizing other people's health.

  11. #236
    Believe. Prime BEEF's Avatar
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    I'm just curious are you an Xer or millennial? Only reason I ask is that the Xers are the last generation to grow up during the cold war and it's very rare I run into fellow millennials that associate socialism with communism.
    Iím a millennial. On the older side of the millennial band but still a millennial.

  12. #237
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    how is that different from every republican trying to buy votes with tax cuts?

    candidates run on improving the lives of the people... thats not "buying votes"
    Tax cuts allowing people to keep more of the money they earn is not the same as using tax dollars to pay off student loan debt that people took on. It's also not the same as using tax dollars for useless degrees. That being said stopping the interest rate is a reasonable resolution for college loans. Of course the far left doesn't care about reasonable.

  13. #238
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    youre welcome decisions are the taken for the better of the country

    for example:

    you cannot have more than 1 wife

    you cannot drive 200mph on roads

    and now

    you cannot have over a billion dollars while other ppl are starving



    Bernie Bernie Bernie!!

    USA USA USA!
    200mph is direct danger to others. Terrible example.

    One wife is a solid example. It would be dangerous for the country if that were to change. That being said government probably shouldn't be involved.

    On the topic of billionairs you are ignoring American history. Rockefeller and Carnegie donated massive amounts of their wealth in the past. Now Bill Gates and Buffet along with a laundry list of others are planning on donating massive amounts of their wealth. Bezos ex-wife just signed that pledge. Bezos just liquidated billions to fight climate change. Continue to demonize people though.

  14. #239
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    i lived in los angeles until about 7 months ago, i'm well aware of how high cost of living can be.

    "six figures" inclues a very wide range of incomes. its very different to be earning 115k per year and 300k per year.

    i didnt say that those people are exorbitantly wealthy or living lavishly. i said "comfortable." if you can buy a 1.5 million dollar home, even in a very pricey area like san francisco, and aren't living paycheck to paycheck (are able to put some money aside), i'd say you're pretty comfortable.
    It's all relative, even at 300k if you live in an expensive area and have children that may not be enough for a "comfortable" living. While someone else can live perfectly fine on 50-60k. Also why are we frowning upon people who make that much? If you spend 10 years in school to get a doctorate, worked hard to get a job in silicon valley or built your own small business shouldn't you be afforded the ability to live "comfortably"?

  15. #240
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    I see we are ignoring discussion on Bernie's braindead wealth tax that has been implemented and has catastrophically failed in Sweden.

  16. #241
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    I see we are ignoring discussion on Bernie's braindead wealth tax that has been implemented and has catastrophically failed in Sweden.
    There's a lot of flaws with Bernie's plans that just get ignored because it's easy to ignore and listen to the fairy tales (like I said earlier).

  17. #242
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    It's all relative, even at 300k if you live in an expensive area and have children that may not be enough for a "comfortable" living.
    i'm very hard-pressed to believe that. i understand the economics of living in an area with a high cost of living. but 300k of income is enough for anybody to be comfortable. even in those expensive cities, a very small % of people are making that kind of money, and everybody else seems to be getting by. i mean yeah, if you decide to buy a home that is at the edge of your budget, buy/lease expensive cars, you can have poor spending habits that detract from what should be a comfortable lifestyle.

    While someone else can live perfectly fine on 50-60k. Also why are we frowning upon people who make that much? If you spend 10 years in school to get a doctorate, worked hard to get a job in silicon valley or built your own small business shouldn't you be afforded the ability to live "comfortably"?
    i dont see where i've ever frowned upon people who earn more money, and i've never said that those people shouldnt be afforded the ability to live comfortably.

  18. #243
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    i'm very hard-pressed to believe that. i understand the economics of living in an area with a high cost of living. but 300k of income is enough for anybody to be comfortable. even in those expensive cities, a very small % of people are making that kind of money, and everybody else seems to be getting by. i mean yeah, if you decide to buy a home that is at the edge of your budget, buy/lease expensive cars, you can have poor spending habits that detract from what should be a comfortable lifestyle.


    i dont see where i've ever frowned upon people who earn more money, and i've never said that those people shouldnt be afforded the ability to live comfortably.
    I forgot. 300k to us armos is like 600k for everyone else ...

  19. #244
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    For the unaware this "man of the people" Bernie guy donates a massive 1% of his income to charity. Thanks for caring so much that you'll only use the money of other people.

  20. #245
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    Isn't Buttigieg polling at like 7% nationally? The DNC media is bending over backward to prop that dude up.
    National polls don't matter right now. If National polls mattered Biden would be the likely nominee instead of the guy who is hanging by a thread.

  21. #246
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    It's all relative, even at 300k if you live in an expensive area and have children that may not be enough for a "comfortable" living. While someone else can live perfectly fine on 50-60k. Also why are we frowning upon people who make that much? If you spend 10 years in school to get a doctorate, worked hard to get a job in silicon valley or built your own small business shouldn't you be afforded the ability to live "comfortably"?
    Agree completely. Didnt read every page of this post but this is how I feel.

    1. It's annoying hearing ppl about those who've worked hard to make money and build wealth through prudent saving and investing.

    2. Listening to the democratic debates, and all you hear is "billionaire" vs. "Food stamp poverty." Not everything has to be so extreme. Calm down. Some ppl bust their ass and go from making 30k salaries to 300k over their career and they don't need to be penalized or apologize for it.

    3. Bernie will be as divisive as Trump has been to America. We need someone in btw

  22. #247
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    For the unaware this "man of the people" Bernie guy donates a massive 1% of his income to charity. Thanks for caring so much that you'll only use the money of other people.
    who do his policies stand to benefit?

  23. #248
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    i'm very hard-pressed to believe that. i understand the economics of living in an area with a high cost of living. but 300k of income is enough for anybody to be comfortable. even in those expensive cities, a very small % of people are making that kind of money, and everybody else seems to be getting by. i mean yeah, if you decide to buy a home that is at the edge of your budget, buy/lease expensive cars, you can have poor spending habits that detract from what should be a comfortable lifestyle.


    i dont see where i've ever frowned upon people who earn more money, and i've never said that those people shouldnt be afforded the ability to live comfortably.
    Are you arguing 300k salary or household income. A single person on 300k should be fine but a family on 300k can certainly struggle depending on where they live. It really isn't that hard to fathom when a place like silicon valley's median home price is something like 1.5M.


    As far as frowning on people who make more money I'm not referring to you specifically but isn't that the entire basis of Bernie's campaign of attacking millionaires and billionaires (when in reality it'll also attack middle class families as well)?

  24. #249
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    who do his policies stand to benefit?
    Himself, just like every other politician.

  25. #250
    Spurs Sage Russ's Avatar
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    Tax cuts allowing people to keep more of the money they earn is not the same as using tax dollars to pay off student loan debt that people took on. It's also not the same as using tax dollars for useless degrees. . . Of course the far left doesn't care about reasonable.
    Yeah, the Republicans have been real hard on phony no-name colleges that give useless degrees in exchange for government (taxpayer) student loan money.

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