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  1. #2701
    Veteran playblair's Avatar
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    its evident that none of u in this thread watched cbb..........wiseman is going to be an anthony bennett bust..........toppin/jaden r the must haves in this draft.......toppin is the future of the nba

  2. #2702
    I want some NASTY! SpurPadre's Avatar
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    I can tell you right now, he’s not ready, and I’m one of of his biggest proponents. He’s played 3 college games, so you can basically consider him a HS draftee. Look at Gobert as a baseline. He was 21 when drafted, and played in the French league, probably the second best in Europe after Spain. His rookie stats were 2.3p/3.4r/0.9bl in 45 games, and he had a couple more years of higher level ball than Wiseman. If you’re expecting ANYTHING this year, you’re setting yourself up for major disappointment.
    Completely understandable. Still, if this were the case, and Pop is likely to retire after this coming season, would they really be trying this hard to get a project? Wouldn't Pop want someone who is ready with the #2 pick, if they can trade up to get it? I can't see Pop in his likely final season, not go for the most NBA ready player possible. So, if he's truly not ready and we land the #2 pick, PATFO might get Deni instead or maybe even Toppin. I can't see the latter but if we truly are interested in Wiseman, maybe he's more ready than people think?

  3. #2703
    Remember Cherokee Parks The Truth #6's Avatar
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    This is the same Pop that had Tim Duncan and Dave Rob, man. If Wiseman is as talented, he won't be relegated to a Clint type role. He'll only be that if he doesn't have enough talent, and fans will hate it.
    Tim and David were MVP candidates when they played their first NBA game. No development needed. Wiseman, on the other hand, will need developing. I’m not saying Pop is unable to develop Wiseman, but there isn’t much evidence of developing bigs. Jackie Butler and Ian Mahinmi were busts in my opinion. Jakob hasn’t improved any that I notice, or at least expanded his game. So I think it’s a legitimate but admittedly unpopular thing to consider. Perhaps David and Tim spoiled Pop. Perhaps there isn’t enough info to make a reasonable opinion yet? Fair enough. I think trading to draft Wiseman has risks, especially including his development. I’m actually warming up to the idea of going all in for Wiseman. But it could be a rough beginning.

  4. #2704
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    reshirted his age 19 season. And while his offense doesn't look like he lost anything by it, his defense sure looks lost.

    Embiid didn't get his injuries until he was already 20. However, there was a recent podcast where I think Ford or Hollinger or Russilo waxed poetic about seeing Embiid during that year improve game to game like and marvel at the improvement over the season, and it was his age 19 season. If he had gotten hurt at the start of the season instead of the end, would the same improvement have occured?
    I think there's a clear distinction to be made between your (fair and quite interesting) point on bigs losing a year or more to injury, and this pandemic-related shutdown that kept players from playing organized ball. Technically, both were lost years, but no prospects this year (well, Wiseman specifically, I can't talk for every draftee) were redshirted, sitting out of most workouts and having to go through rehab instead. Wiseman most likely has spent a lot of time on individual workouts, bodybuilding, and generally training ever since he dropped out of college - he was probably one of the most well equipped draftees in terms of home-working once the pandemic hit, since he'd dropped out of college a while ago and was surely already training by himself or with personal trainers. Of course, that guarantees nothing in relation to his future development, and it's certainly not good to miss a year of basketball, but it's not a clear cut indicator that he'll be a bust (whereas I'll be keeping an eye on other bigs who lost development years to injury, sounds like an interesting correlation if true).

  5. #2705
    Veteran Sugus's Avatar
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    Fair points. Perhaps I should simplify my reasoning: I think Maxey has solid two-way abilities and I’d like to see him on the team somehow.

    To answer your last question, there is no way I trade up to 2 and risk drafting Lamelo. I think it has to be Wiseman, but I think his role with the team, at least under Pop, might not ever get beyond a Clint Capela role. I think Deni would have more success under Pop. So that’s a conundrum for me, in general, what to do with #2 if we somehow ended up there (which I don’t think we will).
    I'd love for us to get a couple more prospects, I haven't scouted Maxey much but can see the interest. Hope the Spurs can offload Gay/DD/Mills for a late first rounder...

    And I think Wiseman's too talented (and the Spurs coaching too smart) to be reduced to a Capela role. Wiseman has a lot more offensive arsenal, isolation, shooting, dribbling which are things Capela could never do at an NBA level, and which kept him relegated to being spoon-fed lobs by Harden. I can't see a scenario where the Spurs go through all the trouble of trading up, then try and reduce the role of their highest draft pick in a decade like that. Having said that, Deni might just be better under Pop, but I don't think it'd be because Pop can't develop bigs. Prospects are unpredictable like that.

  6. #2706
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    I think there's a clear distinction to be made between your (fair and quite interesting) point on bigs losing a year or more to injury, and this pandemic-related shutdown that kept players from playing organized ball. Technically, both were lost years, but no prospects this year (well, Wiseman specifically, I can't talk for every draftee) were redshirted, sitting out of most workouts and having to go through rehab instead. Wiseman most likely has spent a lot of time on individual workouts, bodybuilding, and generally training ever since he dropped out of college - he was probably one of the most well equipped draftees in terms of home-working once the pandemic hit, since he'd dropped out of college a while ago and was surely already training by himself or with personal trainers. Of course, that guarantees nothing in relation to his future development, and it's certainly not good to miss a year of basketball, but it's not a clear cut indicator that he'll be a bust (whereas I'll be keeping an eye on other bigs who lost development years to injury, sounds like an interesting correlation if true).
    I don't think it's a bust indicator, but more of a ceiling limiter. Robinson, Kanter, Noel, these guys all play minutes, and have started games. It could be a coincidence, so I'm not swearing to bigs missing teenage years as a hard fact, but it's interesting. Off the top of my head it didn't really affect bigs who missed years in their early 20s, like Embiid or David Robinson or Blake Griffin.

    Of course the difference between 19 and 20 is just arbitrary, and I think the general point should be about lack of development time in the early years in general.

    And while Wiseman has been working out and doing skill work (seemingly largely or solely with 5-9 guys based on his training videos), I don't think it is a subs ute for compe ive basketball.

    But hey, I'm still on board for him.

    He may not be David Robinson, but I'll take prime Kevin Willis with some rim protection.

  7. #2707
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    I don't believe in Toppin as a lotto guy.

    He's going to be a journeyman.
    I think a lot of people don't realize how old Toppin is. John Collins is only 6 months older than Toppin, and he just finished his 3rd NBA season. Toppin and Jayson Tatum are the same age, and Tatum also just finished his 3rd season. Wiseman is 3 full years younger than Toppin, and Onyeka Okongwu is more than 3 years younger.

  8. #2708
    Emperor Duncan>>>>>King James tim_duncan_fan's Avatar
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    I think a lot of people don't realize how old Toppin is. John Collins is only 6 months older than Toppin, and he just finished his 3rd NBA season. Toppin and Jayson Tatum are the same age, and Tatum also just finished his 3rd season. Wiseman is 3 full years younger than Toppin, and Onyeka Okongwu is more than 3 years younger.
    Yep. Toppin played against younger compe ion and doesn't have much upside. Won't be much more than he is now, which is a serviceable NBA guy.

    Spend the pick on someone with potential.

  9. #2709
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    From ATL insider:

    Hawks get #13, #17, and a 2nd (IDK where the 2nd is from yet)Minny gets #5 and #6
    NOP gets #1 to draft Melo and takes on some amount of salary. Maybe Culver who MIN is trying to trade, lol.
    CLE gets #10, Rubio, and Oubre
    PHX gets Jrue and either a combo of Exum/Nance Jr. or Kevin Love
    MIN wants two of Deni, Obi, or Haliburton.
    I wonder if a Demar/Aldridge for NYK 8 is in play to get Okongwu. Wasserman, ATL insider and another twitter rumor account thinks the deal for GS is dead.
    Last edited by rankingtear; 11-16-2020 at 02:56 AM.

  10. #2710
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    Meh. Okongwu isnt worth trading up for

  11. #2711
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    I'd love for us to get a couple more prospects, I haven't scouted Maxey much but can see the interest. Hope the Spurs can offload Gay/DD/Mills for a late first rounder...

    And I think Wiseman's too talented (and the Spurs coaching too smart) to be reduced to a Capela role. Wiseman has a lot more offensive arsenal, isolation, shooting, dribbling which are things Capela could never do at an NBA level, and which kept him relegated to being spoon-fed lobs by Harden. I can't see a scenario where the Spurs go through all the trouble of trading up, then try and reduce the role of their highest draft pick in a decade like that. Having said that, Deni might just be better under Pop, but I don't think it'd be because Pop can't develop bigs. Prospects are unpredictable like that.
    Also fair points. I’m playing devils advocate in a sense here with Wiseman. I don’t think they would want him to have a reduced role, but it will take work from the team to get him to elite status. I think that should be less controversial of a statement.

  12. #2712
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    Meh. Okongwu isnt worth trading up for
    Disagree. Okongwu will immediately upgrade our defense, and will run with our young guns. Love his footwork and the at ude he plays with. All he need is to work on a outside shot. He is a Kawhi like sculpture to mold.

  13. #2713
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    Disagree. Okongwu will immediately upgrade our defense, and will run with our young guns. Love his footwork and the at ude he plays with. All he need is to work on a outside shot. He is a Kawhi like sculpture to mold.
    His hometown is LA. that. He will just want to go to the Lakers after his first or second contract

  14. #2714
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    His hometown is LA. that. He will just want to go to the Lakers after his first or second contract
    To be fair, saying he isn't worth trading up for, and that he'll leave for LA after his contract is up, are two very different things. I agree with Cowboy, he's definitely someone I'd like the Spurs to get if they whiff out on Wiseman - I'd go as far as saying I wouldn't mind us taking #2 in the event that Minny picks Wiseman first. A bit of a reach maybe, but if the Spurs are high on him, you gotta get your guy. About LA, I don't think there's any reliable way to predict which players will grow up into snaking their original teams, and who won't - and it's not like we're never drafting a player born in LA again just because of Nephew... Right?

  15. #2715
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    In my big man statistical analysis thread, OO shot zero threes during college. I just don't see the upside here. Even Kawhi shot a lot of threes during college--you can't use Kawhi as an example for everybody, especially players who don't have that foundation to begin with. OO just gives off Tristan Thompson (first half of career) vibes. Yes, great footwork, but Tristan had that too.

  16. #2716
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    Don't get me hyped up like this...
    The more I learn about this draft (hadn’t really done my homework), the less appeal there is to me in moving up. Unless the absolutely LOVE someone (maybe the Israeli kid?), it feels like 11 is a good spot to be in such a lackluster draft.

    Now if they are able to acquire another pick without giving up 11 (like by taking back terrible contracts) that’s another story.

  17. #2717
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    To be fair, saying he isn't worth trading up for, and that he'll leave for LA after his contract is up, are two very different things. I agree with Cowboy, he's definitely someone I'd like the Spurs to get if they whiff out on Wiseman - I'd go as far as saying I wouldn't mind us taking #2 in the event that Minny picks Wiseman first. A bit of a reach maybe, but if the Spurs are high on him, you gotta get your guy. About LA, I don't think there's any reliable way to predict which players will grow up into snaking their original teams, and who won't - and it's not like we're never drafting a player born in LA again just because of Nephew... Right?
    I admit I was acting extreme with the LA stuff. It isn't just Nephew. You have DeMar with stars in his eyes whenever LA is mentioned. Metu, who is from there too, gets all butterflies in his stomach whenever the Lakers are mentioned. I just hate it from the viewpoint of a fan when players are like that.

  18. #2718
    Veteran playblair's Avatar
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    The more I learn about this draft (hadn’t really done my homework), the less appeal there is to me in moving up. Unless the absolutely LOVE someone (maybe the Israeli kid?), it feels like 11 is a good spot to be in such a lackluster draft.

    Now if they are able to acquire another pick without giving up 11 (like by taking back terrible contracts) that’s another story.
    2011 was considered lackluster & provided the best player in the nba (nephew) mvp(curry) numerous all stars
    this draft class is much better than 2011
    passing on toppin/jaden will be a mistake

  19. #2719
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    After I've watched Penny Hardaway talk about Wiseman and some other scouting reports, he's worth the gamble. Hard to find an athletic, mobile big man with a good shooting stroke.

  20. #2720
    Peace! bluebellmaniac's Avatar
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    Two days until the draft. Two incredibly fast moving days that will make your head spin. What are your prognostications for who we draft and if we are involved in a trade to move for our desired pick. Call your shot or forever stfu.

  21. #2721
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    I'd be really happy with Nesmith/Bey

  22. #2722
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    I think Isaac Okoro might fall to us but don’t really want another 6’6 guard who can shot that leaves Bey, Nesmith, Kira, and Vassel, and Smith.

  23. #2723
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    I think Isaac Okoro might fall to us but don’t really want another 6’6 guard who can shot that leaves Bey, Nesmith, Kira, and Vassel, and Smith.
    If his worth ethic is great........bring on Okoro for sure! He is a dawg.......

  24. #2724
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    If his worth ethic is great........bring on Okoro for sure! He is a dawg.......
    If he works and works and works, he maybe, maybe, maybe is Bruce Bowen. Chip Engelland 24/7 and he maybe becomes Bruce Bowen. That's his ceiling.

  25. #2725
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    If he works and works and works, he maybe, maybe, maybe is Bruce Bowen. Chip Engelland 24/7 and he maybe becomes Bruce Bowen. That's his ceiling.
    I think his ceiling is poor man's kawhi and his floor is poor man's bowen...

    Robert Woodard is more of a physically stronger Bruce Bowen projection to me..

    All that said, I'm not high on Okoro. I'd take him at 11 but, I wouldn't trade up for him.

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