It's true lmfao. Wait a couple years. I think he looks capable of playing better than Cole, Theo, and Maxey.
Disruptive on D. Natural PG instincts. Reliable 3. More than you can hope for from a combo guard.
Try to watch him with the lens as though he's a 2020 draft prospect (his gleague and bubble play, not his college tape)
Last edited by Dejounte; 09-16-2020 at 08:15 PM.
Updated tier list
Tier 1
Deni Avdija
Obi Toppin
Isaac Okoro
Tier 2
Jalen Smith
Aleksej Pokusevski
Aaron Nesmith
Tyrese Halliburton
Tier 3
Patrick Williams
Kira Lewis Jr
Tier 4
Isaiah Stewart
Precious Achiuwa
Tier 5
Tyler Bey
Robert Woodard II
Zeke Nnaji
Daniel Oturu
Xavier Tillman
Reggie Perry
Paul Reed
(Tier 4 isn't necessarily bad. I would still be happy if we drafted either guy)
(If we drafted any of the tier 5 guys with our #11 I'll be upset)
Last edited by Dejounte; 09-16-2020 at 09:52 PM.
Explain this fit to me, tbh. I'm willing to try to change my mind on Deni-to-the-Spurs.
But a non-shooting combo forward who isn't elite on D, not really a playmaker and who would be best playing off of a superstar is just an odd fit in San Antonio, IMO.
I wouldn't mind the pick because Deni is a pretty good prospect in a vacuum but if you pick him, the fit is so weird you probably have to start tearing the whole thing down to accommodate.
Exactly. I just worry about Murray. From his abilities to him being a potential basket case.
The 6 players I’m interested in are Wiseman, Hayes, Toppin, Okongwu, Avdija, & Haliburton. All are gone in 95% of drafts I’ve seen by pick 10. Getting up to the 7th pick basically guarantees we’d get to pick between 2 of those 6 I mentioned.
Hayes/Haliburton, White, Johnson, DeRozan, Aldridge
or
White, Johnson, DeRozan, Toppin/Okongwu, Aldridge
Unpopular opinion maybe? But Lonnie is worth more than a 7th pick. Yes, he had a disappointing showing in the bubble, but he's still gotten a lot better and shows much more promise than most prospects that would be available at #7. In fact, if he were a draftee this year, I have little doubt he'd go top of the lottery. For sure a better prospect than Lamelo Bll
I agree that Lonnie would be pretty high up the board if he were in the draft. However, the fact that he's already halfway through his rookie contract counts. Some FOs, including perhaps Detroit's, would rather have the #7 pick under team control for 4 years than Lonnie for 2 years, even if Lonnie is a better player.
Due to the contract thing, I think Murray would fetch a better return from Detroit (who has the cap space to absorb his contract) even if they think he's not as good a player and he's getting paid a lot more. I could definitely see the Spurs offering Murray for #7 straight up. It unclogs the backcourt, simplifies the rotation, and allows a second bite at the mid-lottery talent apple.
To put it simply: his speed with the ball is special. It's usually only little guards who are that quick, not from a big wing like Deni. That's the number 1 attribute for me that stood out.
His shooting form doesn't have any major issues. I think he'll be a better shooter than he's been credited for.
He's a 3 level scorer. Can post up, crafty layins, has hops, floater game looks like you're watching a guard. Just has many ways to score where I could envision him to be a go-to guy at the end of games.
Basically, he's Poku with less concerns on how he'll fit on defense (and also the other obvious differences). He can guard his position, he's strong enough not to be a pushover.
He also oozes "natural-born winner". The intangibles gained from his experience in winning high pressure games will prove invaluable.
I'll go into more detail later.
Of course - by "top of the lottery" I meant 1-4. Especially if he hadn't gotten that knee injury a few weeks? before the draft.
I don't think the Pistons would mind too much that Lonnie is halfway through his rookie contract - of course, if he'd had the same kind of season he had this year in his rookie year, he'd be a much more valuable piece, but the benefit of picking a non-rookie player is just that, to get a player that has a bit of trajectory already and a more fleshed out game. I don't particularly follow Detroit so as to know whether they'd prefer to gamble on a pick this season (aren't they not very good at drafting though?), but getting Lonnie while he's on contract for two more seasons is more valuable IMO than a #7 alone. I don't see the Spurs trading Lonnie away, anyway, so it doesn't really matter.
The Murray trade is much, much more enticing, and closer to the value I'd assign to the #7 pick. Dejounte is locked up for 4 years, is a good player with flashy stats despite his limitations, he's a culture guy and a leader. I can see Detroit being interested in him. The question is the same it's always been though - despite the obvious benefits, would the Spurs do it? I think it's a long shot, but would celebrate if it happened. I don't picture DJ in the Spurs' long term plans at all, tbh.
I think it's a mistake to trade Dejounte now. It was suppose to be a down year for him coming from ACL surgery ( see Gallinari , Lavine stats after ACL ). I think he will get back to all defensive team next year and expect another jump on offensive production ( significant jump 2nd year to 3rd year fg% 3pt% ft% ast% ). Decision making might still be questionable but you're primary creator does not need to be your PG or whatever the PG position means these days.
If Detroit does a Murray for #7 swap does that create a trade exception for the Spurs or would that be open cap space for the Spurs to sign a free agents??
The reasons I would consider Lonnie for #7 are:
1. To move up and get Okongwu. I don't think he slides past Washington, if he even makes it past Charlotte. Then I would want the Spurs to take Williams/Killian/Vassell/Halliburton etc at 11
2. Where does Lonnie fit if the Spurs keep White? They'll have White and Murray at the starting guards, and Keldon's play style translates well to a SF, or smallball 4 split with DeRozan who could still get extended.
I don't know if he works great off the bench when Pop out of the bubble forces time for Mills or in the worst case scenario, FORBES
Converting Walker into a defensive rim runner like Okongwu isn't the worst idea to me, you still have #11 to get wing or combo guard help.
And I think money matters as far as control years go. I remember the Spurs trading Hill and that trade was just as much about not being able to afford to pay Hill as it was getting Kawhi, that's how so many were able to call Hill being traded.
I like Lonnie, but I don't think Pop is all in and the longer you go with him just flashing here and there the lower his trade value gets.
"But when Quinn the Eskimo gets here
Everybody jump for joy"
Thanks for answering, breh.
I agree that Deni is a pretty good athlete. I don't think he has "special" speed for a three but he's definitely not a stiff. Above average for an NBA three? Yeah, I can buy that if we're talking about straight-line speed. (Sometimes he looks superhuman in some of his highlights -- but it turns out he's going against an Israeli league team that would struggle to beat American YMCA teams, tbh. So that's a bit of context to watch out for, IMO.)
Shooting-wise, I'm pretty low on him. His jumper is mostly arms, he dips the ball quite a bit before he shoots and his actual release angle varies by the day. He does use a little knee flex but it's unnatural and doesn't seem to generate any power. Add that to his 55% free throw shooting and it'd be really dangerous to draft him banking on him ever being above like a 32% three-point shooter.
Again the "natural-born winner" stuff is iffy depending on what games you're talking about. Stomping Israeli league teams when half his roster is former NBA guys and the other team has glorified volunteers doesn't really count. He has some pretty impressive FIBA wins to his name but his production was never overly amazing.
I could live with him at 11 due to his iness and confidence -- and the fact that he's obviously a hard worker who has improved quite a bit in the last couple years. Deni can be whiny at times but he also plays hard and with an edge ... and like the great Avery Johnson used to say, it's easier to tame a lion than to try to motivate a pussy cat.
But, yeah, the fit on these Spurs would be difficult without him turning into a good shooter somehow or becoming a much better playmaker than he has been to date. Put him on a team like the Bulls or Hawks who have shooting and scoring but need someone to fill in the gaps and he'd be pretty darn good. In San Antonio, he'd just make the team's weaknesses even worse . . .
timvp
Yeah, as for the speed I wasn't really paying attention on if he was racing past the other dudes (he likely was) but rather how he just seemed like a blur on my screen. Also, there might be an illusion with his feet shuffling really fast to make it look like he's road runner... I'm not sure. He just looks unnaturally fast for a big wing.
I get the concerns about the shooting and it may just be the gamble that teams have to live with. I haven't looked into Deni in a while but wasn't his shooting much improved in the latest tournament he played in?
On a side note, his father is a major Jordan fan and you can see the clear influence on some of the fadeaways that Deni pulls off.
Deni is whiny as and it's actually one of my concerns about him. His social media is full of women and other distractions and I'm torn on whether it's a Tim Duncan type at ude where he doesn't care about basketball outside of it or if he simply doesn't have his priorities straight and is looking for fame.
Not saying he isn't a hard worker, but I question what he will do if he does reach star level status.
Demar and 11 for 7 and a SnT Woods, and we use the 7 to swap with celtics on 14 and 24. lol One can dream.
Murray or Walker on their own aren't getting the 7th pick.
At 7 and with Murray traded in this hypothetical, presuming the top 6 more or less plays out to projection, I'd zero in on Hayes and Haliburton. If the order of the top 6 remains (doubtful), I'd guess the Hawks snatch up one at 6, leaving the other for the taking.
This team desperately needs to up their playmaking and IQ in general.
Hope we can get 1 of the top 3 tier with 11 and tier 5 with 41
anyone (except keldon and white) should be tradeable for a 7th pick. Having 7th and 11th picks can significantly accelarate spurs rebuild. Plus if we smh can get kennard and/or christian wood(s&t) with this trade thats a fkin A+ move
Last edited by spurspl; 09-17-2020 at 05:52 AM.
Song lyrics from long ago...
Wouldn't be surprised to see Detroit targeting Bagley with 7. I'm one of those people who really liked Marvin during the draft, so I'd also look into trading 11 for him. That's neither here nor there though.
If Toppin were on the board, I'd be willing to trade Walker for 7 with no hesitation. Anyone else except maybe Wiseman, and I hold onto him. I don't agree that Walker is an awkward fit for the roster. Murray is. DJM shouldn't be the starting anything; he's not a good fit for the bench; he's not a good fit for the salary cap going forward. I'd definitely trade Murray for Wiseman, and there are other players I would be willing to do so as well. Walker has holes like his aggression and finishing, but as a strong two-guard who can run, shoot, rebound and penetrate, I don't it's easy to find a better analog in the draft.
If somehow the Spurs traded Murray for Toppin at 7, drafted Lewis or Nesmith at 11 and grabbed Tillman at 41, you'd be able to take a cruise ship up the new river flowing from my house.
White, Mills
Johnson, Lewis/Nesmith
DeRozan, Walker, Samanic
Toppin, Gay, Lyles
Aldridge, Poeltl, Tillman
That's an embarrassment of talent.
Okay, let's break this down.
Actually, playmaking is a strong suit. Even the video you linked in your profile of Avdija states "Projects as a good primary or secondary playmaker."
This guy, Avdija, passes the ball in a way reminiscent of Larry Bird and Pete Maravich. Just let your eyes do their job.
Two basic problems with this statement.
First, who cares if he would be an odd fit in SA? Are we at that point? Are we fine tuning? This team needs the most impactful player they can find.
(Which is another problem with the threshold premise of your Big Board and its uniqueness to the Spurs and their needs -- it's premature, it really doesn't make sense at this point.)
Secondly, "would be best playing off a superstar" just begs the question -- who wouldn't be? If you're saying he can't create, I just disagree (see above). Avdija is a versatile, instinctive basketball player. He's not a guy you plug in to a spot. If he went to the Spurs and was the player I think he could be, the question wouldn't be how does he fit with the Spurs, it would be how do these guys fit with him.
To take the point to a dangerous level (I admit), Larry Bird comes to mind. There was an old grizzled sports reporter in Boston who watched the Celtics being introduced pregame. He pointed out the shortcomings of each of the first four starters, how you couldn't win with them, then after Bird was finally announced, he said "Now, that's a great team." The Spurs need a guy like that, or a guy who might be like that.
"Straight-line speed?" Huh? This guy is herky-jerky as . He has a Euro-step that would make Ginobili blush. This is exactly the type of player that US defenders have a uva time dealing with. Which brings us to the next point.
That's the same old trope that's trotted out against every foreign player until someone from his country "makes it." The moves Avdija makes, the passes he makes, have nothing to do with the level of compe ion. Remember how those Laker fans used to watch Ginobili's Euro highlights and laugh about how he'd never get to the basket like that in the NBA? He did.
Let's face it, we're basketball snobs. We don't like the new guy until proven otherwise.
Good point. That's the elephant in the room. Shooting. 55% from the line. Could be an Achilles heel, we'll just have to see.
But I disagree that his form is bad -- it looks pretty good to me, meaning that when he hits a three it looks like when a good shooter hits a three (regardless of the percentage he actually hits it at this point in his 19 year old life). Plenty of wings and guards who this forum loves have way worse shooting form than Avdija and shooting is a much bigger part of their appeal than it is with him. He shot .358 in 33 games from 3 last season in Tel Aviv, not bad for a 6'8" guy with his other skills. Let Chip do his work.
He was MVP of the Euro under 20 championships, not an Israeli event. In his interviews, he seems serious and studious about the game. He wants to be good.
To sum up, when I watch him, he passes the eye test. I'm still all in for Okongwu, but Avdija might be second.
But the main, bottom-line point is this -- thanks timvp for all you do for Spurs basketball fans.
"Eurostep that would make Ginobili blush"? Are you considering the fact that you might be exagerating a bit?
His footstep speed is fine he has good handles and a high Ball IQ he is a team player and pretty much has it all. The only issue for me is his free throw shooting which is not good I wonder if he just needs glasses he should get his eyes tested because his numbers should be better.
To me he has about a 10% chance of being an All Star and about 60% chance of being a really good starting SF on a playoff team. What I like about him is that he is just a baller he is good at everything except free throws but he can definitely help create the “Beautiful Game”.
Snot nosed young punk... Link
Seriously, this kid needs a nickname: Eskimo.
Last edited by pad300; 09-17-2020 at 12:47 PM.
There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote