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  1. #1
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    Let's have a separate thread about this. Wingnut twitter and likeminded Libertarians are calling for America to "reopen" because the "cure can't be worse than disease!" Think of all the suicides and substance abuse and other fallout if the economy continues to be shutdown!

    So the economy reopens. Then what? The industries that are being hardest hit are hospitality jobs that rely on frequent close human-to-human interaction in crowded spaces (bars, restaurants, clubs, theaters, etc). Do these idiots think that once Lord Trump declares American open for business, that people are going to pack those establishments like before? No way in .

    There's also the argument that we can't destroy the economy to save "old people." To be fair, the people who say this aren't necessarily saying that we sacrifice old people at the altar of capitalism, but that older people should continue to self quarantine while the "young" can get back to work. This is also re ed logic. Old people still drive a fair amount of consumerism. And young people are in no way, shape, or form immune to this virus's more severe symptoms. 40 percent hospitalizations are younger than 55 (https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/ne...es/2922646001/).

    So it's not like younger people will be able to just jump back into work and shake off a coronavirus infection like it's a mild cold. At the very least, they'll need to self-quarantine for 14 days. This will translate into a natural labor pool shortage that will have to force a business to close down anyway (ex. I'm some dumb Libertarian who is itching to reopen his bar and grill. Lord Trump decrees that I can. I reopen at full capacity and two weeks later, my entire staff has to self-quarantine).

    There's zero path right now to reopening the economy. If you do so, you'll get the same economic damage we're going through right now but more deaths and people sick, which will contribute even more economic damage down the road.

    I'm no economist, but why can't we put a moratorium on debt for a year? The reason many small businesses will probably fold over this crisis because they won't be able to pay the banks and other creditors. Why do the banks need the money right now? Where will it go? To a group of rich assholes who don't need the money anyway? And why would banks need to be flush with extra capital right now when no one in their right mind would "borrow" to, you know, start something like business because it isn't the best in time to start a business at the moment.

    Banks basically just circulate money from payers to borrowers, and if borrower demand is low, what's the point of foreclosing on a debtor right now other than pure greed? (Guess I answered my own question. I'm sure a bunch of heels are licking their chops at all the devalued assets they'll be able to pick up during the crisis and sit on for a decade).

  2. #2
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    That's a pretty over simplistic way to look at it. Banks just do the paperwork. They rarely hold the loans long term. By the time they get bundled, sold, split up, resold you probably have some of those loans you want forgiven in your 401K if you have one.

  3. #3
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    That's a pretty over simplistic way to look at it. Banks just do the paperwork. They rarely hold the loans long term. By the time they get bundled, sold, split up, resold you probably have some of those loans you want forgiven in your 401K if you have one.
    So I ask, what are the consequences of issuing a moratorium on debt collection for a year? Not doing so seems to only benefit assholes like collection agencies, while having huge consequences on putting countless small businesses out of business.

  4. #4
    Believe.
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    There is still

    ZERO plan (testing is non-existent)


    let trump and his cult go back out there

  5. #5
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    So I ask, what are the consequences of issuing a moratorium on debt collection for a year? Not doing so seems to only benefit assholes like collection agencies, while having huge consequences on putting countless small businesses out of business.
    The only way that works is if the government picks up the tab for the missed payments. It's a really big number.

  6. #6
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    So I ask, what are the consequences of issuing a moratorium on debt collection for a year? Not doing so seems to only benefit assholes like collection agencies, while having huge consequences on putting countless small businesses out of business.
    The only way that works is if the government picks up the tab for the missed payments. It's a really big number. Not arguing that it could be a short term solution, just not sure it's the best one.

  7. #7
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    So I ask, what are the consequences of issuing a moratorium on debt collection for a year? Not doing so seems to only benefit assholes like collection agencies, while having huge consequences on putting countless small businesses out of business.
    government would have to operate with sharply diminished tax revenue. inflation if they have to borrow too much

  8. #8
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    The only way that works is if the government picks up the tab for the missed payments. It's a really big number. Not arguing that it could be a short term solution, just not sure it's the best one.
    Do you think it might have to come to down individual moral behavior then? Let's say I'm some multimillionaire property owner. I have enough in the bank from my ventures to live another 50 years of the hookers and blow lifestyle. The strip mall I own with the ice cream shop, café, pizza parlor, and a couple of non-essential businesses is shutdown/just doing takeout. The business owners obviously won't be able to pay their lease for some time. Since I'm comfortable, and don't "need" that money, I can just tell them, "you're good, bro. Don't worry about making payments until we get past this thing. I want to save your businesses."

    I just don't see how anyone (who has the luxury to do so) with a conscience could bring the eviction/collection hammers down right now.

  9. #9
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Do you think it might have to come to down individual moral behavior then? Let's say I'm some multimillionaire property owner. I have enough in the bank from my ventures to live another 50 years of the hookers and blow lifestyle. The strip mall I own with the ice cream shop, café, pizza parlor, and a couple of non-essential businesses is shutdown/just doing takeout. The business owners obviously won't be able to pay their lease for some time. Since I'm comfortable, and don't "need" that money, I can just tell them, "you're good, bro. Don't worry about making payments until we get past this thing. I want to save your businesses."

    I just don't see how anyone (who has the luxury to do so) with a conscience could bring the eviction/collection hammers down right now.
    That's pretty hypothetical. The typical shopping center is owned by a REIT that pools money from individual investors that depend on the monthly income derived from the rents after the REIT takes its management fee. Or even an individual investors who has " made it" according to you...he puts down 20%, borrows the rest and has monthly payments that the rent almost covers. No rent, no payments, he gets foreclosed on and loses everything.

  10. #10
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    That's pretty hypothetical. The typical shopping center is owned by a REIT that pools money from individual investors that depend on the monthly income derived from the rents after the REIT takes its management fee. Or even an individual investors who has " made it" according to you...he puts down 20%, borrows the rest and has monthly payments that the rent almost covers. No rent, no payments, he gets foreclosed on and loses everything.
    But this moratorium works in his favor, as well.

    What I'm trying to examine here is that saving the economy is going to require a different sort of thinking, behavior and approach than the solutions that were applied to past depressions and recessions. What I'm trying to figure out is who or what is going to get the money as a result of all of this? Does that money "need" to go there?

  11. #11
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Sidebar: temporary UBI proposed by Sen.Josh Hawley


  12. #12
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    Sidebar: temporary UBI proposed by Sen.Josh Hawley


  13. #13
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Puts his caucus to the left of Pelosi/Schumer (on UBI) if they take it up.

  14. #14
    coffee's for closers FrostKing's Avatar
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    So no one told you life was gonna be this way. Your job's a joke, you're broke, your love life's D.O.A

    It's like you're always stuck in second gear. When it hasn't been your day, your week, your month
    Or even your year, but

  15. #15
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    And as microcosm of that UBI scenario, individual business that can afford it should continue to pay their employees throughout the shutdown (I would agree that employees receiving such shouldn't qualify for UBI).

    I'll use our local casinos here as an example. They own the land, and thus don't owe anyone in that regard (they might possibly owe loans for other things, but who knows). The closest casino to me was rumored to pull in 12 billion in revenue last year. I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say that it doesn't cost 6 billion to run that joint (the MGM Resorts, meaning multiple casinos, had 8 billion in operating costs last year). But even if it did, they could use just one year of profits to pay each of their 5000 employees over 1 million dollars . So they could easily close up shop for a year, pay their employees their current wages, and reopen when it's safe to reopen. But these assholes are talking about an early May reopening. And why? Pure greed. That's it.

  16. #16
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    But this moratorium works in his favor, as well.

    What I'm trying to examine here is that saving the economy is going to require a different sort of thinking, behavior and approach than the solutions that were applied to past depressions and recessions. What I'm trying to figure out is who or what is going to get the money as a result of all of this? Does that money "need" to go there?
    The banking sector would never go along with this. Which I know is your point, but asking why won't bankers stop taking people's money is an "old man yells at cloud" type question.

  17. #17
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    And as microcosm of that UBI scenario, individual business that can afford it should continue to pay their employees throughout the shutdown (I would agree that employees receiving such shouldn't qualify for UBI).

    I'll use our local casinos here as an example. They own the land, and thus don't owe anyone in that regard (they might possibly owe loans for other things, but who knows). The closest casino to me was rumored to pull in 12 billion in revenue last year. I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say that it doesn't cost 6 billion to run that joint (the MGM Resorts, meaning multiple casinos, had 8 billion in operating costs last year). But even if it did, they could use just one year of profits to pay each of their 5000 employees over 1 million dollars . So they could easily close up shop for a year, pay their employees their current wages, and reopen when it's safe to reopen. But these assholes are talking about an early May reopening. And why? Pure greed. That's it.
    why are you punishing success

  18. #18
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    why are you punishing success
    Probably getting pressured by the tribal members. Those dudes blow their money like no one's business.

  19. #19
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    I'm no economist, but why can't we put a moratorium on debt for a year?
    What happens after the year is up?

    The thing I disagree with is your underlying premise. If we all hide in a hole for 12 months the virus will still be here when we come out of our holes. Not to mention that people will not hide in a hole for the next 12 months regardless of what the govt says.

    Covid-19 is globally endemic now and will make it's way through most of the population. Nothing is going to change that. We will go through a series of starts and stops globally to control the rate of burn and that is all there is to it. We already see that playing out in Asia and Europe as countries are relaxing restrictions.
    Last edited by SnakeBoy; 04-09-2020 at 07:20 PM.

  20. #20
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    Puts his caucus to the left of Pelosi/Schumer (on UBI) if they take it up.
    has about as much a chance as automatic voter registration, Medicare for all, or universal vote-by-mail

  21. #21
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    .

  22. #22
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Let's have a separate thread about this. Wingnut twitter and likeminded Libertarians are calling for America to "reopen" because the "cure can't be worse than disease!" Think of all the suicides and substance abuse and other fallout if the economy continues to be shutdown!

    So the economy reopens. Then what? The industries that are being hardest hit are hospitality jobs that rely on frequent close human-to-human interaction in crowded spaces (bars, restaurants, clubs, theaters, etc). Do these idiots think that once Lord Trump declares American open for business, that people are going to pack those establishments like before? No way in .

    There's also the argument that we can't destroy the economy to save "old people." To be fair, the people who say this aren't necessarily saying that we sacrifice old people at the altar of capitalism, but that older people should continue to self quarantine while the "young" can get back to work. This is also re ed logic. Old people still drive a fair amount of consumerism. And young people are in no way, shape, or form immune to this virus's more severe symptoms. 40 percent hospitalizations are younger than 55 (https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/ne...es/2922646001/).

    So it's not like younger people will be able to just jump back into work and shake off a coronavirus infection like it's a mild cold. At the very least, they'll need to self-quarantine for 14 days. This will translate into a natural labor pool shortage that will have to force a business to close down anyway (ex. I'm some dumb Libertarian who is itching to reopen his bar and grill. Lord Trump decrees that I can. I reopen at full capacity and two weeks later, my entire staff has to self-quarantine).

    There's zero path right now to reopening the economy. If you do so, you'll get the same economic damage we're going through right now but more deaths and people sick, which will contribute even more economic damage down the road.

    I'm no economist, but why can't we put a moratorium on debt for a year? The reason many small businesses will probably fold over this crisis because they won't be able to pay the banks and other creditors. Why do the banks need the money right now? Where will it go? To a group of rich assholes who don't need the money anyway? And why would banks need to be flush with extra capital right now when no one in their right mind would "borrow" to, you know, start something like business because it isn't the best in time to start a business at the moment.

    Banks basically just circulate money from payers to borrowers, and if borrower demand is low, what's the point of foreclosing on a debtor right now other than pure greed? (Guess I answered my own question. I'm sure a bunch of heels are licking their chops at all the devalued assets they'll be able to pick up during the crisis and sit on for a decade).
    There's no scenario where the vast majority of rich people/banks/corps lose money. Now, re-articulate your thought based on that certainty.

    And let me add banks need to be flush with money because there's going to be a solid amount of bankruptcies, due to the usual suspects: healthcare costs, unpaid mortgages, defaulted loans, etc. Takes some time to bundle those and sell them at a loss, and they're too big to fail, so we socialize the bailout per par.

  23. #23
    Happy New Decade! Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    23K+ and rising. Economy going up not down.

  24. #24
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    23K+ and rising. Economy going up not down.
    Big gains coincided with another big figure unemployment -- 6.6 million filed for unemployment in the newest report. Looking at the pattern, it's starting to look like 6.5 miilion to 7 million applications/week represents the capacity of the system, not the volume of the filers.

    Economy getting better? 16-17 million people recently put out of work may feel otherwise.

  25. #25
    Happy New Decade! Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    Big gains coincided with another big figure unemployment -- 6.6 million filed for unemployment in the newest report. Looking at the pattern, it's starting to look like 6.5 miilion to 7 million applications/week represents the capacity of the system, not the volume of the filers.

    Economy getting better? 16-17 million people recently put out of work may feel otherwise.
    so when is the dow goin' down? If stocks are going up, the economy is going up.

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