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  1. #226
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    I get your point, but again he is a superstar in his home country. In San Antonio he's about as popular as you can get. I don't always agree with how players are labeled. Tim is a great example, one the greatest to have ever played, but because he didn't sell junk food to kids he might not be a 'superstar.'
    Side Subject.. But

    Tony for whatever reason is not beloved by Spurs fans. At least the fans around here. And it's been like that since about 2005.. I don't get it, and I never did? He was as valuable and at times more valuable than Manu. He was Tim's Little brother/Robin many times over. No doubt helped the Spurs win 4. But he is kind of a laughing stock/target of Jokes. Is it the Brent Barry Wife thing? She was HOT so he should get some Brownie points on that one LOL..

  2. #227
    Groundhog Day TDfan2007's Avatar
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    Link? If the list is closely related to the tle of this thread, "best playa of all-time", then there's no NBA only qulifier. I know NBA people like to claim the entirety of the basketball World, hence the motto "World Champions" when they are only US and one Canadian team champions, but still, if you are going to label your list "best players of all-time" then I'm going to use all basketball related compe ions to discuss the matter.

    But, for the sake of arguing, let's say that, indeed, there's an NBA only qualifier. What's the criteria to rank these NBA players? If the criteria is "most counting stats for a player" then sure, go ahead and rank Iverson over Manu. While your are at it, go ahead and rank players like DeRozan, Kevin Martin, and a bunch of others, ahead of him too. But, if it's open for interpretation and any kind of analysis or reasoning could be use to rank the players, like, for example, asking yourself the question "leaving cir stancial consequences aside, like stats and accolades, who do you think is actually the better player between these two?", then, sorry, but I would have to go with Manu, tbh.
    So...did you not look at the list? It's ESPN's lost of the 74 greatest NBA players of all time.

    And comparing AI to Manu is nothing like comparing Kevin Martin or DeRozan to Manu. AI was a multiple time scoring champ, franchise player, and managed to lead his team to the finals in 2001 in historic fashion.

    Manu was arguably the best player on the Spurs once, and that was 2010-2011. He was probably 1b in 2007-2008 to Timmy. Other that that, it was either Tim or Tony's team. Many of the reasons you've cited for his lower counting stats (bench play, limited minutes, and playing with an all time great) also played a factor in the team success that he enjoyed, and helped to extend his career.

    Individual success:
    2x all star (2005, 2011)
    2x all-nba 3rd team (2007-2008, 2010-2011)
    Sixth man of the year (2007-2008)

    Team success:
    2003 champion: role player
    2005 champion: 2nd best player, case for finals MVP
    2007 champion: 2nd best player, along with Tony
    2014 champion: 2nd best player (better than Kawhi and Tony for the entirety of the playoffs)

    At his best, Manu was the second best player on multiple championship teams. That's an amazing feat, and worthy of his spot on the list.

  3. #228
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    So...did you not look at the list? It's ESPN's lost of the 74 greatest NBA players of all time.

    And comparing AI to Manu is nothing like comparing Kevin Martin or DeRozan to Manu. AI was a multiple time scoring champ, franchise player, and managed to lead his team to the finals in 2001 in historic fashion.

    Manu was arguably the best player on the Spurs once, and that was 2010-2011. He was probably 1b in 2007-2008 to Timmy. Other that that, it was either Tim or Tony's team. Many of the reasons you've cited for his lower counting stats (bench play, limited minutes, and playing with an all time great) also played a factor in the team success that he enjoyed, and helped to extend his career.

    Individual success:
    2x all star (2005, 2011)
    2x all-nba 3rd team (2007-2008, 2010-2011)
    Sixth man of the year (2007-2008)

    Team success:
    2003 champion: role player
    2005 champion: 2nd best player, case for finals MVP
    2007 champion: 2nd best player, along with Tony
    2014 champion: 2nd best player (better than Kawhi and Tony for the entirety of the playoffs)

    At his best, Manu was the second best player on multiple championship teams. That's an amazing feat, and worthy of his spot on the list.
    Spot on Analysis of his career.. Manu was the 1B or even 1C.. At no point did the Spurs ever say "Manu it is your team". Tony when Tim was still young was given the green light to put the ball in the basket more.. Pop did NOT tell Manu to "Be the man now".

    IMO Pop was always concerned about the durability of Manu. Thus the low minutes, and being the 6th man..

    Spurs fans try to devalue Tony to prop up Manu.. Unfairly so..

  4. #229
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    Spot on Analysis of his career.. Manu was the 1B or even 1C.. At no point did the Spurs ever say "Manu it is your team". Tony when Tim was still young was given the green light to put the ball in the basket more.. Pop did NOT tell Manu to "Be the man now".

    IMO Pop was always concerned about the durability of Manu. Thus the low minutes, and being the 6th man..

    Spurs fans try to devalue Tony to prop up Manu.. Unfairly so..
    Why do we really have to bring Tony into this?

  5. #230
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    Why do we really have to bring Tony into this?
    Exactly. Spurs fans just want to dismiss him. There it is..

  6. #231
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    Exactly. Spurs fans just want to dismiss him. There it is..
    Tony is still very beloved by Spurs fans, and as much as I think Manu was a better player, he still was very instrumental to our success, they were the Big 3 for a reason
    I think the Barry incident was a factor for him not being perceived as the most likeable of the three, but people on the internet like to be extreme with their opinions, that doesn't mean he is not loved and appreciated in SA (actually I think he's underrated amongst casual NBA fans, but that's another matter)
    He may not be as beloved as Manu, but who is? That's not really a knock on Tony

  7. #232
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    Tony is still very beloved by Spurs fans, and as much as I think Manu was a better player, he still was very instrumental to our success, they were the Big 3 for a reason
    I think the Barry incident was a factor for him not being perceived as the most likeable of the three, but people on the internet like to be extreme with their opinions, that doesn't mean he is not loved and appreciated in SA (actually I think he's underrated amongst casual NBA fans, but that's another matter)
    He may not be as beloved as Manu, but who is? That's not really a knock on Tony
    Manu could have banged Eva Longoria, and Spurs fans would not have changed their minds. They had the Poms Poms out a long time ago, and picked sides..

  8. #233
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    Manu could have banged Eva Longoria, and Spurs fans would not have changed their minds. They had the Poms Poms out a long time ago, and picked sides..
    Nah c'mon, what Tony did was bad

  9. #234
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    So...did you not look at the list? It's ESPN's lost of the 74 greatest NBA players of all time.

    And comparing AI to Manu is nothing like comparing Kevin Martin or DeRozan to Manu. AI was a multiple time scoring champ, franchise player, and managed to lead his team to the finals in 2001 in historic fashion.

    Manu was arguably the best player on the Spurs once, and that was 2010-2011. He was probably 1b in 2007-2008 to Timmy. Other that that, it was either Tim or Tony's team. Many of the reasons you've cited for his lower counting stats (bench play, limited minutes, and playing with an all time great) also played a factor in the team success that he enjoyed, and helped to extend his career.

    Individual success:
    2x all star (2005, 2011)
    2x all-nba 3rd team (2007-2008, 2010-2011)
    Sixth man of the year (2007-2008)

    Team success:
    2003 champion: role player
    2005 champion: 2nd best player, case for finals MVP
    2007 champion: 2nd best player, along with Tony
    2014 champion: 2nd best player (better than Kawhi and Tony for the entirety of the playoffs)

    At his best, Manu was the second best player on multiple championship teams. That's an amazing feat, and worthy of his spot on the list.
    Well, that's exactly my point. People like dbreiden83080 like to point out that Manu without Duncan wouldn't have won as much, but then doesn't want to acknowledge that Iverson playing with Duncan would have never won MVP nor scoring les. It works both ways, so it's dumb to bring those cir stancial accolades. The guy with the better team will tend to have more team success and the guy with the lesser team will tend to have better individual stats, it's only natural. That's why you have to try to put aside those things and focus on the skills and intangible traits of the players.

  10. #235
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    Nah c'mon, what Tony did was bad
    She was pretty fine.. It wasn't that bad LOL..

  11. #236
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    Well, that's exactly my point. People like dbreiden83080 like to point out that Manu without Duncan wouldn't have won as much, but then doesn't want to acknowledge that Iverson playing with Duncan would have never won MVP nor scoring les. It works both ways, so it's dumb to bring those cir stancial accolades. The guy with the better team will tend to have more team success and the guy with the lesser team will tend to have better individual stats, it's only natural. That's why you have to try to put aside those things and focus on the skills and intangible traits of the players.
    Some people love to throw out terms like winners intangibles. Yeah well itís not that hard to show winners intangibles on a winning team. A team that may need you to be clutch two games out of seven. Manu Could be fantastic for one or two games in a playoff series. He could also disappear suddenly in a playoff series. 2008 conference finals. He was playing great and then suddenly nothing. He was injured right? Well again we come back to the durability issue.

    Players like Malone and Patrick Ewing had to be durable. It was a job requirement. Thatís why we donít throw aside things like league MVPs. They donít give them out like pieces of candy.
    Last edited by dbreiden83080; 4 Weeks Ago at 05:35 PM.

  12. #237
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Some people love to throw out terms like winners intangibles. Yeah well itís not that hard to show winners intangibles on a winning team. A team that may need you to be clutch two games out of seven. Manu Could be fantastic for one or two games in a playoff series. He could also disappear suddenly in a playoff series. 2008 conference finals. He was playing great and then suddenly nothing. He was injured right? Well again we come back to the durability issue.

    Players like Malone and Patrick Ewing had to be durable. It was a job requirement. Thatís why we donít throw aside things like league MVPs. They donít give them out like pieces of candy.
    Dude, you are the king of going on tangents when you feel you are running out of arguments, tbh.

    That post you quoted wasn't about "intangibles" and "winners", tbh. It was about how external factors play a huge role in the career of individual players. That's why using championships isn't the best of arguments, but using scoring les and MVP's is just as bad of an argument.

    With that said, I will engage if you want. In the matter of "winners", as I already explained, I was actually arguing the opposite. I was acknowlodging the fact that if Manu didn't have the luck of having the teammates he had, he wouldn't have won as much as he won (although obviously the individual always plays a part. Like I said before: Swap AI and Manu and the Spurs probably don't win as much, and Argentina definitely doesn't win Gold in '04 if Manu and AI switch places).

    And regarding the term "intangibles" I was talking about things that aren't so abstract and can be easily assumed. For example, an "intangible" aspect that Manu has over AI, and that it can be easy to assume, is professionalism.

  13. #238
    Klaw apalisoc_9's Avatar
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    Well, that's exactly my point. People like dbreiden83080 like to point out that Manu without Duncan wouldn't have won as much, but then doesn't want to acknowledge that Iverson playing with Duncan would have never won MVP nor scoring les. It works both ways, so it's dumb to bring those cir stancial accolades. The guy with the better team will tend to have more team success and the guy with the lesser team will tend to have better individual stats, it's only natural. That's why you have to try to put aside those things and focus on the skills and intangible traits of the players.
    Except that you’re the only one operating based on assumption. Iverson won an MVP. Sure it could be because of cir stances, but plenty of elite players had similiar cor stances and never won MVP.

    You on the other hand are making assumptions that Manu will surely do this and do that if he had his own team.

    No one shouldbe ranked based on this assumptions.

    Manu made a decision to be 2’d or 3rd guy over a 1st guy, and he will take the positives of that such as winning championship and he deserbes to be penalized for that too by having no hard evidence to suggest he can be a top guy who can lead his team to even playoff.

    We’re talking about a guy that is nowhere near close durable to be a franchise guy

  14. #239
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    Give me your top 50 players list, troll.
    Not for you scrah. You know I like you as a poster, but you get butthurt if anyone puts manu outside of top 50. I mean playing like drexler, Pau etc have clearly achived more
    I hope Manu signed some cool for him..

    Dude, you are the king of going on tangents when you feel you are running out of arguments, tbh.

    That post you quoted wasn't about "intangibles" and "winners", tbh. It was about how external factors play a huge role in the career of individual players. That's why using championships isn't the best of arguments, but using scoring les and MVP's is just as bad of an argument.

    With that said, I will engage if you want. In the matter of "winners", as I already explained, I was actually arguing the opposite. I was acknowlodging the fact that if Manu didn't have the luck of having the teammates he had, he wouldn't have won as much as he won (although obviously the individual always plays a part. Like I said before: Swap AI and Manu and the Spurs probably don't win as much, and Argentina definitely doesn't win Gold in '04 if Manu and AI switch places).

    And regarding the term "intangibles" I was talking about things that aren't so abstract and can be easily assumed. For example, an "intangible" aspect that Manu has over AI, and that it can be easy to assume, is professionalism.
    "Manu means wins" is the crux of your argument for 10 days. So me talking about "Winners intangibles" is an extension of what you have been saying all this time. There is no tangible evidence that Manu is a better player than AI. Because all ways one would measure this from stats, to individual honors, to leading his own team, Manu falls short.. He decided to be a Robin or 3rd wheel.. That disqualifies comparison with players like AI. Was he even better than Tony? Did Tony not have better stats, more individual honors, same number of rings, a coach that gave him a larger role over time? Who compares Tony to AI?
    Last edited by dbreiden83080; 4 Weeks Ago at 09:30 PM.

  15. #240
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    Some people love to throw out terms like winners intangibles. Yeah well it’s not that hard to show winners intangibles on a winning team. A team that may need you to be clutch two games out of seven. Manu Could be fantastic for one or two games in a playoff series. He could also disappear suddenly in a playoff series. 2008 conference finals. He was playing great and then suddenly nothing. He was injured right? Well again we come back to the durability issue.

    Players like Malone and Patrick Ewing had to be durable. It was a job requirement. That’s why we don’t throw aside things like league MVPs. They don’t give them out like pieces of candy.
    Yeah cos the only guy in basketball history to win a domestic league le, euroleague, Olympic Gold and NBA le (and was one vote away from winning them all as a MVP) surely just had winning intangibles because he was on winning teams and not the other way round
    You're just mentioning two all team greats and a bad series out of countless good ones to make a case for I don't exactly know what

  16. #241
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    Except that youíre the only one operating based on assumption. Iverson won an MVP. Sure it could be because of cir stances, but plenty of elite players had similiar cor stances and never won MVP.
    Exactly.. All time great players like Ewing never won one. But still LED his team for 10 plus years and made a finals run.. Conference finals Appearances..

    You on the other hand are making assumptions that Manu will surely do this and do that if he had his own team.
    No evidence of this obviously. So the point needs to be dismissed.. Manu was just fine where he was..

    Manu made a decision to be 2íd or 3rd guy over a 1st guy, and he will take the positives of that such as winning championship and he deserbes to be penalized for that too by having no hard evidence to suggest he can be a top guy who can lead his team to even playoff.

    Weíre talking about a guy that is nowhere near close durable to be a franchise guy
    A player that chooses to stay in a secondary role should not be placed above players in history that achieved individual greatness as franchise players. No fair player rankings would say otherwise. That's why Pippen is hard to rank for some.. He had franchise player skills, but was the Robin to the best player ever for most of his prime. Has his own team briefly to mixed results..
    Last edited by dbreiden83080; 4 Weeks Ago at 09:40 PM.

  17. #242
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    Yeah cos the only guy in basketball history to win a domestic league le, euroleague, Olympic Gold and NBA le (and was one vote away from winning them all as a MVP) surely just had winning intangibles because he was on winning teams and not the other way round
    You're just mentioning two all team greats and a bad series out of countless good ones to make a case for I don't exactly know what
    Manu played in nearly 1100 NBA games.. 218 playoff games. That is a lot to digest and critique in terms of his place in history.. I have NOT been unfair to Manu at all.. He should be in the HOF.. He meant a lot to the Spurs. But was he better than franchise players like AI or Ewing or Barkley? no.. IMO he was on the same level as Tony. Maybe Tony was better.. (Here comes a storm right)

    " Tony"

  18. #243
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Except that youíre the only one operating based on assumption. Iverson won an MVP. Sure it could be because of cir stances, but plenty of elite players had similiar cor stances and never won MVP.

    You on the other hand are making assumptions that Manu will surely do this and do that if he had his own team.
    Point me to where I said that. I'm just stating that winning MVP doesn't automatically make a player better than another. Chris Paul was a nunber one option just like Derrick Rose. Paul never won MVP, Rose did. Does that mean Rose is the better player?

    No one shouldbe ranked based on this assumptions.

    Manu made a decision to be 2íd or 3rd guy over a 1st guy, and he will take the positives of that such as winning championship and he deserbes to be penalized for that too by having no hard evidence to suggest he can be a top guy who can lead his team to even playoff.

    Weíre talking about a guy that is nowhere near close durable to be a franchise guy
    Talk about making unprovable assumptions.
    Last edited by DAF86; 4 Weeks Ago at 09:49 PM.

  19. #244
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    I hope Manu signed some cool for him..



    "Manu means wins" is the crux of your argument for 10 days. So me talking about "Winners intangibles" is an extension of what you have been saying all this time. There is no tangible evidence that Manu is a better player than AI. Because all ways one would measure this from stats, to individual honors, to leading his own team, Manu falls short.. He decided to be a Robin or 3rd wheel.. That disqualifies comparison with players like AI. Was he even better than Tony? Did Tony not have better stats, more individual honors, same number of rings, a coach that gave him a larger role over time? Who compares Tony to AI?
    No, the crux of my argument has always been that Manu shoots better, finishes better, assists better, rebounds better, blocks better, defends better, takes better decisions and does pretty much everything better than Iverson on a basketball court

  20. #245
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    No, the crux of my argument has always been that Manu shoots better, finishes better, assists better, rebounds better, blocks better, defends better, takes better decisions and does pretty much everything better than Iverson on a basketball court
    From the eyes of a Spurs fan from Argentina.. And with Manu playing the 3rd wheel at times.. Seems fair and 100% unbiased.

  21. #246
    Klaw apalisoc_9's Avatar
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    Point me to where I said that. I'm just stating that winning MVP doesn't automatically make a player better than another. Chris Paul never won MVP, does that mean Derrick Rose is better 'cause he did?



    Talk about making unprovable assumptions.
    Unprovable? He was injury prone with the spurs

  22. #247
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    From the eyes of a Spurs fan from Argentina.. And with Manu playing the 3rd wheel at times.. Seems fair and 100% unbiased.
    Ok, you don't agree with those things I said? Tell me in which of those things you think Iverson was better than Manu

  23. #248
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    Unprovable? He was injury prone with the spurs

  24. #249
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Unprovable? He was injury prone with the spurs
    Injury prone? Only 1 season ending injury in 23 years of professional basketball. If Manu is injury prone what does that make a guy like Kawhi? Is Kawhi not a franchise player because he is "injury prone"?

  25. #250
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    Manu played in nearly 1100 NBA games.. 218 playoff games. That is a lot to digest and critique in terms of his place in history.. I have NOT been unfair to Manu at all.. He should be in the HOF.. He meant a lot to the Spurs. But was he better than franchise players like AI or Ewing or Barkley? no.. IMO he was on the same level as Tony. Maybe Tony was better.. (Here comes a storm right)

    " Tony"
    I never said he was better than Barkley or Ewing, I don't think he was, I think he could've been a first option and I stand by that
    He chose to be a Robin, he's probably the best 3rd option of all time in terms of maximizing his production with a lesser role, the guy was a legit 19/5/4 guy on a Popovich team in the playoffs during his prime, he got rewarded with rings
    On a pure basketball standpoint I'm taking him over some first options because he was skilled, extremely versatile, played on both sides on the floor, did all the little things and he could deliver in the clutch, Barkley, Ewing, Malone were all-time great first options, of course I've got them before him, but not every first option in NBA history has been *that* great
    As for AI, his 76ers run was incredible, but I've got to say I'm not really a fan, he was wildly inefficient and couldn't adjust to any other way, still I'm not mad if you rank him over Manu, I just think it's closer than numbers might suggest
    Tony's great, don't think he's better than Manu tho

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