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  1. #51
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Parish would be close. He played with stacked talent. But Willis Reed for example was a franchise big man. Manu do you think he is a franchise player? He made the All Star team twice.. He was the 2nd maybe 3rd wheel on the Spurs. Tony gets shunned around here in the midst of the Manu love fest.. Had Manu not been on the Spurs it's a short career brother. Pop kept him healthy. And playing with a top 5 all time player helped just a little with the rings. I am not putting him above franchise level players, because he won rings with Tim Duncan.. We got some idiots saying he is better than AI.. Which is hilarious.. Lillard is 72. He's having a better career than Manu.. He just didn't play with TD.. It's easy to say "He would have averaged 25 a game" Well he didn't..
    So let me get this straight: you can assume guys like Iverson and Lillard would have won rings with better supporting casts but I can't assume Manu would have averaged 25 pts per game on a bigger role? That's quite the hypocritical argument, tbh.

    Manu played for several different teams on several different cultures, with barely taking a summer off during offseasons. I'm gonna go ahead and just assume he would have had a pretty healthy and lengthly career anywhere, tbh. It's easy to say "he would have gotten a career ending injury at age 26". Well, he didn't.

    Manu is as complete a player as we have ever seen and he proved several times he could do it at the highest level for long periods of time. If you don't think he could have done a pretty damn good job as a franchise guy, then I question your basketball knowledge, specially for a Spurs fan that oughtta know just how good Manu really was.

    Btw, I was the one that said Manu > Iverson.

    Height, strength, shooting, finishing, defense, IQ, leadership, clutchness. Outside of speed, I'm having a hard time finding things in which AI is better than Manu, tbh.

    If there was a fantasy draft right now, I would take Manu and the wins, you can have Iverson and the 30 pts on 30 shots, tbh.

  2. #52
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Agreed. He's very tough to rank for a variety of reasons. Manu had 4 GREAT years (2005, 2007, 2010, 2011), but his body failed him time and time again, especially in the playoffs, when his efficiency usually dipped. He was a guy who could kill you in spurts, but he wasn't on the level of a Kobe or DWade, guys who could consistently get their numbers and play at an MVPish level despite playing alongside generational talent. I'd say he's in the Reggie Miller and Ray Allen tier, but at the top of that tier.

    Manu's biggest issue was that he wasn't consistently great, especially in the playoffs. He'd give you moments and great games, but not night in night out consistent production. That's why he was always referred to as our X factor. If he had a great game, we were essentially unbeatable.
    What? the dude made a name for himself, exactoy for coming up big in the important moments more times than not. Not only in the NBA but in international play also. I don't know where are you getting this idea that Manu's production declined during the playoffs but numbers indicate exactly the opposite. Outside of a few outliers, Manu's production always went up during the playoffs compared to the regular season. Even the late TOSB version of Manu would see his play increase during the playoffs.

    One more thing that we need to remember when looking at Manu's advanced stats is that those numbers are based on playing a disproportionate number of minutes against bench players compared to other starts at his level.
    Sorry, but that's just not true and a hater's argument, tbh. Manu's stats are actually better when he starts.

  3. #53
    BLACK LIVES MATTER Play Boban's Avatar
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    Manu should be ranked higher than Jim tbh

  4. #54
    Groundhog Day TDfan2007's Avatar
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    What? the dude made a name for himself, exactoy for coming up big in the important moments more times than not. Not only in the NBA but in international play also. I don't know where are you getting this idea that Manu's production declined during the playoffs but numbers indicate exactly the opposite. Outside of a few outliers, Manu's production always went up during the playoffs compared to the regular season. Even the late TOSB version of Manu would see his play increase during the playoffs.


    Sorry, but that's just not true and a hater's argument, tbh. Manu's stats are actually better when he starts.
    Yes, his EFFICIENCY and EFFECTIVENESS got worse, with only a few exceptions. For the sake of fairness, I'll include only prime years of 2005-2012

    -2005: season PER 22.3, WS/48 0.240; playoffs PER 24.8, WS/48 0.260 (this was GOAT playoff Manu)

    -2006: season PER 22.4, WS/48 0.234; playoffs PER 21.5, WS/48 0.154 (dribbled the ball off his foot to end game 3 against Dallas, fouled Dirk then missed the game-winning layup in game 7)

    -2007: season PER 24.1, WS/48 0.246; playoffs PER 21.9, WS/48 0.204 (absolute beast in the RS)

    -2008: season PER 24.3, WS/48 0.232; playoffs PER 17.1, WS/48 0.112 (maybe his best RS ever, but playoffs were marred by inconsistency after an ankle injury in round 1)

    -2009: injured in playoffs

    -2010: season PER 22.5, WS/48 0.216; playoffs PER 21.4, WS/48 0.149

    -2011: season PER 21.7, WS/48 0.195; playoffs PER 22.3, WS/48 0.155 (by far our best player in an embarrassing playoff sweep, despite playing with a broken arm)

    -2012: season PER 24.1, WS/48 0.257; playoffs PER 17.0, WS/48 0.120 (again, inconsistent play with flashes of brilliance; brilliant in game 2 against the Thunder, but completely disappeared in the deciding game 6)

  5. #55
    Believe. MultiTroll's Avatar
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    Stats, limited playing time coming off the bench, perception due to playing with Timmy....probably skewed his ranking a bit.

    I think Manu would say he is pretty happy with the career he had. First ballot Hall of Fame in my opinion...
    Agree, probably doesn't GAF about what ESPN/ABC/Disney has to say.

    Manu knows the fakery business part of the NBA and knows the Spurs overcame it 5Xs, 4 with him.

  6. #56
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    At people still citing counting stats and accolades without context.

    The irony of it, is that no team has shown more in the past decade how irrelevant they are. Look how good this team was in the first half of the past decade often without anyone putting up "All-Star numbers". Look how mediocre-bad they've been in recent years with multiple players putting up "All-Star numbers". Sure, the former had better depth/fit, but still.

  7. #57
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    So let me get this straight: you can assume guys like Iverson and Lillard would have won rings with better supporting casts but I can't assume Manu would have averaged 25 pts per game on a bigger role? That's quite the hypocritical argument, tbh.
    You can assume he can average 25 PPG with a bigger role.. But based on his injury history lack of durability, playing very few minutes at a young age.. Well do the math son. He wasn't going to last.. I don't know about AI winning rings, or Lillard? But if they are playing with TD, I would say the odds are better than average LOL..

    Manu played for several different teams on several different cultures, with barely taking a summer off during offseasons. I'm gonna go ahead and just assume he would have had a pretty healthy and lengthly career anywhere, tbh. It's easy to say "he would have gotten a career ending injury at age 26". Well, he didn't.
    No.. Pop micro managed those minutes starting at 30 years of age.. They didn't nick name Manu El Contusione for nothing..

    Manu is as complete a player as we have ever seen and he proved several times he could do it at the highest level for long periods of time. If you don't think he could have done a pretty damn good job as a franchise guy, then I question your basketball knowledge, specially for a Spurs fan that oughtta know just how good Manu really was.
    I think he would have been potentially a franchise guy for 3 or 4 years.. Then he would be so beat up, he is coming off the bench.. And put into context franchise guy? At what level? He is no Kobe or TD, or KG or Dirk, Wade etc.. Any of those guys.. You could play Manu 48 min a night he is not on that level..

    Btw, I was the one that said Manu > Iverson.
    Yeah well put the ing pipe down.. AI was a league MVP, led the league in scoring 4 times, was an 11 time All Star, and led a team to the finals almost by himself. That Philly Team Sucked..

    I would take Manu and the wins, you can have Iverson and the 30 pts on 30 shots, tbh.
    You mean you would take Tim Duncan, Manu and the wins.. That is a far more accurate statement... Yes I would take Tim Duncan, Manu and the wins over AI As well.

  8. #58
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    We’re not talking about turnovers in the 2013 Finals though.
    I know. Exactly

  9. #59
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Better than Porker tbh
    Water is wet post

  10. #60
    Spur-taaaa TDMVPDPOY's Avatar
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    looking at drob, besides rodman...does he have any team mate in top100 let alone top200 pre duncan? lol

  11. #61
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Yes, his EFFICIENCY and EFFECTIVENESS got worse, with only a few exceptions. For the sake of fairness, I'll include only prime years of 2005-2012

    -2005: season PER 22.3, WS/48 0.240; playoffs PER 24.8, WS/48 0.260 (this was GOAT playoff Manu)

    -2006: season PER 22.4, WS/48 0.234; playoffs PER 21.5, WS/48 0.154 (dribbled the ball off his foot to end game 3 against Dallas, fouled Dirk then missed the game-winning layup in game 7)

    -2007: season PER 24.1, WS/48 0.246; playoffs PER 21.9, WS/48 0.204 (absolute beast in the RS)

    -2008: season PER 24.3, WS/48 0.232; playoffs PER 17.1, WS/48 0.112 (maybe his best RS ever, but playoffs were marred by inconsistency after an ankle injury in round 1)

    -2009: injured in playoffs

    -2010: season PER 22.5, WS/48 0.216; playoffs PER 21.4, WS/48 0.149

    -2011: season PER 21.7, WS/48 0.195; playoffs PER 22.3, WS/48 0.155 (by far our best player in an embarrassing playoff sweep, despite playing with a broken arm)

    -2012: season PER 24.1, WS/48 0.257; playoffs PER 17.0, WS/48 0.120 (again, inconsistent play with flashes of brilliance; brilliant in game 2 against the Thunder, but completely disappeared in the deciding game 6)
    First of all, lol using TOSB PER as a sign of efficiency or effectiveness. Also, do you realize that if there's a drop off, it's an insignificant one? You made seem like Manu drastically decreased his level during the playoffs when that wasn't the case at all. You do realize that it's the norm for "efficiency" to go down in the playoffs, right? You are playing the best teams, with the best defenses, focused on you for 7 games series.

    Since you went with PER, for some reason, here's some numbers:

    Manu's total regular season PER is 20.2, his playoffs PER is 19.3. a 0.9 drop off.

    For comparisson's sake:

    -The second greatest Spurs of all time, David Robinson: RS PER: 26.2 - PO PER: 23 - 3.2 pts dropoff.

    -The second greatest SG of all time, Kobe Bryant: RS PER: 22.9 - PO PER: 22.4 - 0.5 pts dropoff.

    -Larry Bird: RS PER: 23.5 - PO PER: 21.4.- 2.1 pts dropoff.

    -Magic Johnson: RS PER: 24.1 - PO PER: 23 - 1.1 pts dropoff

    -Wilt Chamberlain: RS PER: 26 - PO PER: 22.7 - 3.3 pts dropoff

    You wouldn't accuse any of those guys for being any less great because they couldn't mantain their "efficiency" during the playoffs, right?

  12. #62
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    You can assume he can average 25 PPG with a bigger role.. But based on his injury history lack of durability, playing very few minutes at a young age.. Well do the math son. He wasn't going to last.. I don't know about AI winning rings, or Lillard? But if they are playing with TD, I would say the odds are better than average LOL..
    Yeah? 'cause I could easily assume that Lillard would get Duncan out of town like he did with Aldridge, or that Iverson, given his history, would rather get traded and things up than taking a backseat to Duncan.


    No.. Pop micro managed those minutes starting at 30 years of age.. They didn't nick name Manu El Contusione for nothing..
    And? Maybe he wouldn't have played 'till 42, maybe he played 'till 35. Still, not a shabby age to retire, tbh.

    I think he would have been potentially a franchise guy for 3 or 4 years.. Then he would be so beat up, he is coming off the bench.. And put into context franchise guy? At what level? He is no Kobe or TD, or KG or Dirk, Wade etc.. Any of those guys.. You could play Manu 48 min a night he is not on that level..
    Why the are you grouping Garnett, Dirk and Wade with Duncan, as if they were on the same level? Heck, Kobe isn't on Duncan's tier either.

    And, no, obviously I don't think Manu could be anywhere close to the level of franchise player Duncan was. But I do think he would have been a solid franchise player for about 10 years with a team with winning record and maybe a shot at regular season MVP, or a trip to the finals here and there. You know, like that inferior player, Iverson, did once of each.

    Yeah well put the ing pipe down.. AI was a league MVP, led the league in scoring 4 times, was an 11 time All Star, and led a team to the finals almost by himself. That Philly Team Sucked..
    Yeah, because he was put on the position to do just that. You pulling the MVP and 11 times all-star card is like me pulling the 4 rings and gold medal card. Iverson was put in a place of individual stat padding (and he kinda forced it too, or at least, didn't do anything to get out of that place), Manu was placed on a position of team success and infinite glory. I'm sure Manu wouldn't have had it any other way.

    You mean you would take Tim Duncan, Manu and the wins.. That is a far more accurate statement... Yes I would take Tim Duncan, Manu and the wins over AI As well.
    No, I take Manu and the wins. You are forgetting that besides being a Spurs fan, I'm Argentinian, and we are (or at least I am) discussing basketball in general, not just the NBA. And Manu got me plenty of wins as a basketball fan, tbh. With or without Duncan. I know for a fact Iverson wouldn't have gotten me even half the wins Manu got me. And, trust me, I know from experience, I was a huge Iverson fan.
    Last edited by DAF86; 05-18-2020 at 01:01 AM.

  13. #63
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    At people still citing counting stats and accolades without context.

    The irony of it, is that no team has shown more in the past decade how irrelevant they are. Look how good this team was in the first half of the past decade often without anyone putting up "All-Star numbers". Look how mediocre-bad they've been in recent years with multiple players putting up "All-Star numbers". Sure, the former had better depth/fit, but still.
    Spurs fans, of all people, should realize this fact. It's mind boggling that some of them are still so caught up with counting stats.

    "But he never averaged 25 ppg and he could never lead a team in the regular season".

    You know what player did both of those things? DeRozan. Do you see how flawed the reasoning of guys like dbreiden83080 is?

  14. #64
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    Spurs fans, of all people, should realize this fact. It's mind boggling that some of them are still so caught up with counting stats.

    "But he never averaged 25 ppg and he could never lead a team in the regular season".

    You know what player did both of those things? DeRozan. Do you see how flawed the reasoning of guys like dbreiden83080 is?
    DeRozan is not AI, or Willis Reed, or some of the others mentioned. You are trying to move the Goal Post.. I love Manu, but we can't compare him historically to players that were the center piece of a Franchise, and advanced very far without winning it all. That were league MVP winners. Dude they got Clyde Drexler at 57.. He was the 2nd best SG in the league for years, and the best player on the 92 Blazers that lost to yep... MJ and the Bulls.. This list is pretty ed the more I look at it.. Alonzo Mourning at 63. He was a beast in his prime a 20/10 player and dominant on D. Led his team to 1 deep run in 97 losing to the Bulls in the ECF. And where is Dennis Johnson? His career while he is a different player, he is more Manu like in that he played with some great players, had a key role, and won rings. But was never the Main Man..

  15. #65
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    At people still citing counting stats and accolades without context.

    The irony of it, is that no team has shown more in the past decade how irrelevant they are. Look how good this team was in the first half of the past decade often without anyone putting up "All-Star numbers". Look how mediocre-bad they've been in recent years with multiple players putting up "All-Star numbers". Sure, the former had better depth/fit, but still.
    I think one of the problems is Rings get credit for too much. For me Wilt is far, and away better than Russell.. He was the best player of that era by a God Damn Mile. He had mediocre team-mates while Russell was surrounded with HOF talent, in an era with only 8 teams..

    They got Pippen at 21 on this list WTF? Patrick Ewing is 37. In what ed up alternate universe Is Pippen better than Ewing? You played with Michael Friggin Jordan dude.. Knicks beat you in the playoffs with regularity otherwise.. Or Barkley is at 23? Barkley a former league MVP led the Suns to the Finals. The list is BS. Most of it..

  16. #66
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    I think one of the problems is Rings get credit for too much. For me Wilt is far, and away better than Russell.. He was the best player of that era by a God Damn Mile. He had mediocre team-mates while Russell was surrounded with HOF talent, in an era with only 8 teams..

    They got Pippen at 21 on this list WTF? Patrick Ewing is 37. In what ed up alternate universe Is Pippen better than Ewing? You played with Michael Friggin Jordan dude.. Knicks beat you in the playoffs with regularity otherwise.. Or Barkley is at 23? Barkley a former league MVP led the Suns to the Finals. The list is BS. Most of it..
    Less teams = less diluted league

  17. #67
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    Less teams = less diluted league
    With 90% of the talent on 1 team.. With less basketball to be played. Less chance for injuries, or just getting worn down. 16 wins to a le these days.. Might have to play 28 games. In the 60's it was 2 rounds. Potential for 14 games.. Modern era is far more difficult..

  18. #68
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    DeRozan is not AI, or Willis Reed, or some of the others mentioned. You are trying to move the Goal Post..
    Moving goal posts? You were the one talking about 25 ppg and leading teams during a season. DeRozan did both those things. Heck, his Raptors won 59 games one season. Think of that, a DeMar DeRozan led team had a 60 wins season, but then folks try to sell me the idea that Manu wouldn't be able to be a franchise guy.

    I love Manu, but we can't compare him historically to players that were the center piece of a Franchise, and advanced very far without winning it all. That were league MVP winners. Dude they got Clyde Drexler at 57.. He was the 2nd best SG in the league for years, and the best player on the 92 Blazers that lost to yep... MJ and the Bulls.. This list is pretty ed the more I look at it.. Alonzo Mourning at 63. He was a beast in his prime a 20/10 player and dominant on D. Led his team to 1 deep run in 97 losing to the Bulls in the ECF. And where is Dennis Johnson? His career while he is a different player, he is more Manu like in that he played with some great players, had a key role, and won rings. But was never the Main Man..
    Why? Because they were put on a position to have all the shots and minutes they wanted? You probably would be one of those guys saying that Westbrook >>>>> Harden, just because Westbrook was a 25 ppg all-star while Harden was a 15 ppg bench guy.

  19. #69
    Groundhog Day TDfan2007's Avatar
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    First of all, lol using TOSB PER as a sign of efficiency or effectiveness. Also, do you realize that if there's a drop off, it's an insignificant one? You made seem like Manu drastically decreased his level during the playoffs when that wasn't the case at all. You do realize that it's the norm for "efficiency" to go down in the playoffs, right? You are playing the best teams, with the best defenses, focused on you for 7 games series.

    Since you went with PER, for some reason, here's some numbers:

    Manu's total regular season PER is 20.2, his playoffs PER is 19.3. a 0.9 drop off.

    For comparisson's sake:

    -The second greatest Spurs of all time, David Robinson: RS PER: 26.2 - PO PER: 23 - 3.2 pts dropoff.

    -The second greatest SG of all time, Kobe Bryant: RS PER: 22.9 - PO PER: 22.4 - 0.5 pts dropoff.

    -Larry Bird: RS PER: 23.5 - PO PER: 21.4.- 2.1 pts dropoff.

    -Magic Johnson: RS PER: 24.1 - PO PER: 23 - 1.1 pts dropoff

    -Wilt Chamberlain: RS PER: 26 - PO PER: 22.7 - 3.3 pts dropoff

    You wouldn't accuse any of those guys for being any less great because they couldn't mantain their "efficiency" during the playoffs, right?
    PER is a great advanced stat to use for effectiveness in the playoffs because it accounts for pace, and the playoffs are notorious for their slower pace. I also used win shares/48 minutes, which evened things out given Manu's lower total minute count, but okay.

    And to your point, yes David is ROUTINELY held against the fire for failing to elevate his game in the playoffs, as was Wilt. One of the main criticisms of Kobe is his lack of finals MVPs and his mediocre finals performances in 04, 08, and 2010. Regarding Magic and Bird, I'm a bit surprised by those numbers tbh, especially Bird. Maybe their numbers are skewed by particularly rough stretches later in their careers. That's why I made it a point to only use Manu's prime.

    Anyway, your mind is made up. I gave you the facts and the context. What you do with it is up to you *shrug*

  20. #70
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    PER is a great advanced stat to use for effectiveness in the playoffs because it accounts for pace, and the playoffs are notorious for their slower pace. I also used win shares/48 minutes, which evened things out given Manu's lower total minute count, but okay.

    And to your point, yes David is ROUTINELY held against the fire for failing to elevate his game in the playoffs, as was Wilt. One of the main criticisms of Kobe is his lack of finals MVPs and his mediocre finals performances in 04, 08, and 2010. Regarding Magic and Bird, I'm a bit surprised by those numbers tbh, especially Bird. Maybe their numbers are skewed by particularly rough stretches later in their careers. That's why I made it a point to only use Manu's prime.

    Anyway, your mind is made up. I gave you the facts and the context. What you do with it is up to you *shrug*
    Didn't I just provide exactly the same thing?

  21. #71
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    Moving goal posts? You were the one talking about 25 ppg and leading teams during a season. DeRozan did both those things. Heck, his Raptors won 59 games one season. Think of that, a DeMar DeRozan led team had a 60 wins season, but then folks try to sell me the idea that Manu wouldn't be able to be a franchise guy.
    We were talking about AI.. A league MVP winner that led a team to the finals. Willis Reed a 2 time Finals MVP.. I guess things like league MVP's and 3 First team
    all NBA selections mean very little for AI. Manu made a grand total of 2 All Star Teams son.. 2..

    What about Drexler at 57? Care to tell me how Manu is anywhere close to a 10 time All Star that was first team all NBA in 1992? He was 2nd in the MVP voting. These are the guys you want to tell me "Manu is better than" Is he better than Drexler? Why? Because he is from Argentina, and you are biased as ?


    Why? Because they were put on a position to have all the shots and minutes they wanted? You probably would be one of those guys saying that Westbrook >>>>> Harden, just because Westbrook was a 25 ppg all-star while Harden was a 15 ppg bench guy.
    You just proved my point. You want to give credit to Manu for something he never did.. Even with your DD point guess what? DD did something Manu did NOT.. It was his team, and the Raptors got pretty far. He was only traded because one of the best players in the league was available.. A top 3 player.. He wasn't traded for scraps. As Spurs fans we know DD got caught up in a very crazy situation. Guys like Leonard don't just become available in their primes.. You can yell that Manu would have done it as a Franchise guy.. But Legacies are about what you actually did do.. Now with Harden he stepped out, and became one of the best players in the NBA. An MVP Winner, and Scoring champ. He showed us he was on that all time level. Manu stayed in SA, and kept contributing to a team not built around him. I deal in what happened. You wave the Poms Poms and say "Go Manu"..
    Last edited by dbreiden83080; 05-19-2020 at 09:24 PM.

  22. #72
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    We were talking about AI.. A league MVP winner that led a team to the finals. Willis Reed a 2 time Finals MVP.. I guess things like league MVP's and 3 First team
    all NBA selections mean very little for AI. Manu made a grand total of 2 All Star Teams son.. 2..
    The AI argument was already adressed. You gave me cir stancial accolades to say why you think Iverson was better than Manu; while I compared their respective skillsets, mentalities and profesionalism to explain why I think Manu was the better player.

    So no, we were no longer talking about AI. I was adressing comments like these:

    Manu do you think he is a franchise player?

    It's easy to say "He would have averaged 25 a game" Well he didn't..
    1) Yes, if guys like DeRozan were able to be "franchise guys" then Manu definitely could too.

    2) Again, if guys like DeRozan (or Kevin Martin or many others) were able to do it, then yes, I think Manu could too. And if he didn't, would he need to? Nash won B2B MVP's averaging 16 ppg.

    What about Drexler at 57? Care to tell me how Manu is anywhere close to a 10 time All Star that was first team all NBA in 1992? He was 2nd in the MVP voting. These are the guys you want to tell me "Manu is better than" Is he better than Drexler? Why? Because he is from Argentina, and you are biased as ?
    Now you are just resorting to personal attacks because you can't keep up with the arguments

    Regarding Drexler, I don't know, I didn't have the chance to see him much during his prime. But by looking at his stats, he seems to be well worthy of the praise he gets, tbh. Anyway, I don't why you bring him up so agressively. Wasn't he placed above Manu?

    You just proved my point. You want to give credit to Manu for something he never did.. Even with your DD point guess what? DD did something Manu did NOT.. It was his team, and the Raptors got pretty far. He was only traded because one of the best players in the league was available.. A top 3 player.. He wasn't traded for scraps. As Spurs fans we know DD got caught up in a very crazy situation. Guys like Leonard don't just become available in their primes.. You can yell that Manu would have done it as a Franchise guy.. But Legacies are about what you actually did do..
    Ok, now tell me this: do you think DeRozan is a better player than Manu Ginobili?

    Now with Harden he stepped out, and became one of the best players in the NBA. An MVP Winner, and Scoring champ. He showed us he was on that all time level. Manu stayed in SA, and kept contributing to a team not built around him. I deal in what happened. You wave the Poms Poms and say "Go Manu"..
    Again with the personal attacks because you notice You can't keep the argument going. It's ok son, I forgive you.

    Your problem is that you are all over the place and keep contradicting yourself.

    First you say "well, we can't assume things that didn't happen. Manu never led a team" and then go onto say things like "Well, if Iverson or Lillard played with better teams they would have more rings than Manu".

    So, what is it son? We can or can't assume things that didn't happen?

    You know what the worst part is? That Manu did lead teams during his career. On Europe, on the Olympics vs all-NBA teams, and yes, in the NBA too. Or are you just going to ignore years like 2008 and 2011?
    Last edited by DAF86; 05-19-2020 at 09:52 PM.

  23. #73
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    The AI argument was already adressed. You gave me cir stancial accolades to say why you think Iverson was better than Manu; while I compared their respective skillsets, mentalities and profesionalism to explain why I think Manu was the better player.
    No you waved your poms poms and said "Go Manu".. AI is a League MVP winner. He is one of the best players of his generation. You are too biased..


    1) Yes, if guys like DeRozan were able to be "franchise guys" then Manu definitely could too.

    2) Again, if guys like DeRozan (or Kevin Martin or many others) were able to do it, then yes, I think Manu could too. And if he didn't, would he need to? Nash won B2B MVP's averaging 16 ppg.
    I was not really a big Nash fan. But he was also putting up 11-12 APG, and orchestrating one of the highest powered Offenses of that era.. Probably in league history. Manu played for Pop, and had very low minutes to keep him as healthy as possible. He did not play 35-38 MPG for 12 years as a franchise centerpiece.. Manu is playing 26 MPG at 31 years old.. Nash is playing 36 MPG with the ball in his hands all the time. Spurs had TD, and also Tony. They didn't have to wear Manu out..


    Now you are just resorting to personal attacks because you can't keep up with the arguments

    Regarding Drexler, I don't know, I didn't have the chance to see him much during his prime. But by looking at his stats, he seems to be well worthy of the praise he gets, tbh. Anyway, I don't why you bring him up so agressively. Wasn't he placed above Manu?
    He was only 1 spot above Manu at 57. Which shows why that list is whacked.. I mentioned Dennis Johnson with the Celtics. He is nowhere.. He had a Manu like Career..


    Ok, now tell me this: do you think DeRozan is a better player than Manu Ginobili?
    A loaded question because he is now playing for a mediocre Spurs team.. I am not a huge fan of DD, but he has great offensive talent, and again was only traded for a top 3 player in the league.. Manu is traded for Leonard as well in a heartbeat.. I would say prime for prime they are pretty damn close.. Are you convinced he could not fit in with prime TD, and Tony to win some rings? This Spurs team is in transition and it is bad.. Manu never played for a bad Spurs team. He played for great Spurs teams. Some damn near historically great.. TD in 2003 dragged a young Manu, and Tony to a Chip.. Manu did very little in the 2003 playoffs.. People were pissed off Jackson was gone that off-season.. And you know that.. By 2005 Manu was playing at a very high level no doubt. But still had prime TD to carry the load.. 2007 who got finals MVP?? Not Manu or even Tim. Tony gets it.. Again Manu is playing on a great Spurs team. DD would have loved to get his shot with that squad..
    Last edited by dbreiden83080; 05-19-2020 at 10:15 PM.

  24. #74
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    lol son, it was a "yes or no" question, tbh. No reason to go on a tangent like you did.

    Or maybe you won't give a straight answer because you know you argued yourself into a corner.

  25. #75
    Klaw apalisoc_9's Avatar
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    58 is slightly higher for Manu considering his limited minutes and just overall body of work compared to the guys behind him.

    The big question with manu has always been durability. I think if we can confidently say he can be durable, I can easily see him average 25ppg. But that never happened.

    I would probably put him in the 65-70 range..Which is not that far from his current ranking.

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