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  1. #101
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    People are forgetting it’s the Basketball HOF and not just the NBA HOF (which I think there needs to be one too and if that were the case Manu probably wouldn’t make it). Because of that Manu makes it because of his international career and accomplishments alone (leading his team to beat Team USA twice which was pretty impressive. He barely had to do anything in the NBA to make it.
    And I have always had a problem with that. Because It waters everything down. If these guys are spending 95% of their careers in the NBA. That’s what really counts. At least that’s what should count.

  2. #102
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    I think the point being made is that for say the baseball Hall of Fame, there are certain statistical benchmarks that usually need to be reached in order to get induction. This obviously limits the field quite a bit. Making the club of inductees for more exclusive. For the most part I think thatís the way that it should be. There are exceptions certainly. But you have to admit the basketball Hall of Fame is far too easy to get into. You have guys that basically had four or five good seasons that are in the basketball Hall of Fame. They donít belong there. Players that didnít win, and also didnít even put up consistent numbers that really pop out. But they are in the Hall of Fame.
    I know, but I'm saying that doesn't make sense for basketball. That's not the same as saying some of the inductees aren't questionable though and I agree it should be more exclusive, but not for that reason.

    Again, counting stats without context are largely meaningless. Ginobili, for example, did put up consistent numbers in catch all metrics, which are more indicative of impact.

  3. #103
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    I know, but I'm saying that doesn't make sense for basketball. That's not the same as saying some of the inductees aren't questionable though and I agree it should be more exclusive, but not for that reason.

    Again, counting stats without context are largely meaningless. Ginobili, for example, did put up consistent numbers in catch all metrics, which are more indicative of impact.
    You can spin numbers any which you want for all sports man. Football, Baseball they all use metrics today never used, or rarely used 30 years ago.. WAR, or Wins Above Replacement is something discussed all the time now in the modern game. But it was not used or discussed until 1982. But in Baseball you still must meet a common statistical standard based on position. That's why Craig Biggio for example with 3,000 hits had to wait a few years. It's a more exclusive club. Don Mattingly was incredible the first half of his career. Far more dominant in his sport, than Manu ever was in Basketball. He won a league MVP, a Batting le, he has 9 Gold Gloves, he was regarded as the best player in Baseball in 1985. Why is he NOT in the HOF? Well because he hurt his back around 1990 and the last 5 years of his career, he was injured, and ineffective. Now I could be all fancy with the numbers, and make his case. But he does not meet the usual criteria.. Like I said it's a more exclusive club..

  4. #104
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    You can spin numbers any which you want for all sports man. Football, Baseball they all use metrics today never used, or rarely used 30 years ago.. WAR, or Wins Above Replacement is something discussed all the time now in the modern game. But it was not used or discussed until 1982. But in Baseball you still must meet a common statistical standard based on position. That's why Craig Biggio for example with 3,000 hits had to wait a few years. It's a more exclusive club. Don Mattingly was incredible the first half of his career. Far more dominant in his sport, than Manu ever was in Basketball. He won a league MVP, a Batting le, he has 9 Gold Gloves, he was regarded as the best player in Baseball in 1985. Why is he NOT in the HOF? Well because he hurt his back around 1990 and the last 5 years of his career, he was injured, and ineffective. Now I could be all fancy with the numbers, and make his case. But he does not meet the usual criteria.. Like I said it's a more exclusive club..
    I'm not spinning anything. Baseball lacks the dynamics that basketball does. It's strictly about numbers, so it's easier to make definitive statements based on them.

    Ginobili had about a 7 year stretch where he was a top 10-15 player and for about 15 years a significant part of the most successful team in the NBA (and unlike Durant and S bag, they were unassailable) and the second or third most successful team internationally. He's clearly a Hall-of-Famer.

    A joke player like DeRozan shouldn't merit consideration because he might eclipse arbitrary thresholds like 20,000 points and because a bunch of archaic/unknowledgeable fools gave him a bunch of undeserved accolades based on team success in a weak conference.

  5. #105
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    I'm not spinning anything. Baseball lacks the dynamics that basketball does. It's strictly about numbers, so it's easier to make definitive statements based on them.

    Ginobili had about a 7 year stretch where he was a top 10-15 player and for about 15 years a significant part of the most successful team in the NBA (and unlike Durant and S bag, they were unassailable) and the second or third most successful team internationally. He's clearly a Hall-of-Famer.

    A joke player like DeRozan shouldn't merit consideration because he might eclipse arbitrary thresholds like 20,000 points and because a bunch of archaic/unknowledgeable fools gave him a bunch of undeserved accolades based on team success in a weak conference.
    Basketball is a game of numbers as well.. So is Football. All sports are. What is the difference between MLB, NFL, and NBA HOF? Well MLB, and the NFL have a very strict criteria where Basketball simply does not.. The NBA needs it's own HOF, so the other NON-NBA Factors are out of the equation.. Now to the DD disrespect. Unfair and unwarranted.. He's a of a player.. Had a heck of a run in Toronto... Was traded to SA in a crazy set of cir stances. Spurs fans on him, because he is not Leonard. You know that is why. They are still NOT over what happened.. That we are NOT contenders anymore.. Y'all got spoiled is the problem.. TD spoiled everyone.. You need to factor in Manu, and all the great teams he has played on man.. Put Manu on the Raptors, and what is going to happen? They are going to win more than 59 games? Is that supposed to be easy? They are going to beat Lebron in a 7 game series? If we drafted DD into the Spurs system in 2002 or 2003 he could not have been brought up, to help TD, Tony and the Spurs win? Come on now.. Something should be said for supporting the guys on your team.. You say DD is a "Joke Player" Wow.. 22/6/6 on 52% FG this year, and he's a joke.. Wonder what you would have said about Manu had the Spurs been in this same position with him at the front? Probably the same thing..
    Last edited by dbreiden83080; 05-21-2020 at 04:54 PM.

  6. #106
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    Basketball is a game of numbers as well.. So is Football. All sports are. What is the difference between MLB, NFL, and NBA HOF? Well MLB, and the NFL have a very strict criteria where Basketball simply does not.. The NBA needs it's own HOF, so the other NON-NBA Factors are out of the equation.. Now to the DD disrespect. Unfair and unwarranted.. He's a of a player.. Had a heck of a run in Toronto... Was traded to SA in a crazy set of cir stances. Spurs fans on him, because he is not Leonard. You know that is why. They are still NOT over what happened.. That we are NOT contenders anymore.. Y'all got spoiled is the problem.. TD spoiled everyone.. You need to factor in Manu, and all the great teams he has played on man.. Put Manu on the Raptors, and what is going to happen? They are going to win more than 59 games? Is that supposed to be easy? They are going to beat Lebron in a 7 game series? If we drafted DD into the Spurs system in 2002 or 2003 he could not have been brought up, to help TD, Tony and the Spurs win? Come on now.. Something should be said for supporting the guys on your team.. You say DD is a "Joke Player" Wow.. 22/6/6 on 52% FG this year, and he's a joke.. Wonder what you would have said about Manu had the Spurs been in this same position with him at the front? Probably the same thing..
    Basketball is cerebral, dynamic, nuanced and for 99% context related and the context for Ginobili was that minutes/usage depressed his counting stats. The eye test (if you know the game) and metrics indicate he was significantly better than tons of players with superior counting stats.

    DeRozan is a talented individual player who's style doesn't translate to impact in a team setting under anything less than pristine cir stances and even then that only applies to the regular season. Again, his Raptors run was mostly thanks to Lowry (their version of Ginobili), the 2nd unit and the East. He is a joke because he's a whiner (Raptors culture), who's refused to attempt to expand his game to modern standards and it shows in his pathetic on/off splits annually.

    No, S bag and the front office going senile is why the Spurs are where they are. Had the team been set up well for the future like they should be (like the Pelicans and Thunder), I'd be fine with the inevitable downturn and I'm guessing most would too.

    Replace Ginobili with DeRozan and the Spurs are light 3 championships.

  7. #107
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    No, S bag and the front office going senile is why the Spurs are where they are. Had the team been set up well for the future like they should be (like the Pelicans and Thunder), I'd be fine with the inevitable downturn and I'm guessing most would too.
    Spurs lost a top 3 player in the NBA for reasons that were not their fault.. The Snake, and his Uncle had a plan revolving around LA for years... And he is a game changing franchise player. You don't recover from that in 1 or 2 years. That may set you back 5 years or more. Imagine if Duncan had gone to the Magic? Spurs are ed for likely 10 years or more.. Lean years happen for even the best franchises, and this is the time for the Spurs.. How have the Pelicans done a good job exactly? They had AD for basically a decade, surrounded him with , and lost.. They have Zion.. Who knows where he will be in 5 years? The way the league is going. He may be in a larger market..

    Replace Ginobili with DeRozan and the Spurs are light 3 championships.
    Or they could be heavy 2 Championships.. Maybe DD Listens to Pop in the Time Out, and does NOT Foul Dirk in Game 7 going to the rim..

    And maybe DD could manage Better than 9 PTS, and 8 Turnovers in a close out game 6 of the NBA Finals.. You know the same game Duncan had 30 PTS and 17 Reb.. Spurs may have 7 Rings...

  8. #108
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Oh no he doesn't think Manu is a top 58 player...

    He's trolling
    No, you are trolling. Just like rascal (a known long time Spurs hater) and hater. dbreiden83080 honestly thinks Manu isn't a top 58 player and that's why he isn't trolling.
    Last edited by DAF86; 05-21-2020 at 09:04 PM.

  9. #109
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    People are forgetting itís the Basketball HOF and not just the NBA HOF (which I think there needs to be one too and if that were the case Manu probably wouldnít make it). Because of that Manu makes it because of his international career and accomplishments alone (leading his team to beat Team USA twice which was pretty impressive. He barely had to do anything in the NBA to make it.
    In which timeline an all-star level player from a dynasty with 4 rings doesn't make the Hall of fame of a league? Manu is a HoF both in basketball in general and in the NBA.

  10. #110
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    Yao Ming for starters. But he helped to make the game global, yeah yeah heís not a Hall of Fame basketball player. He had maybe three Hall of Fame worthy seasons. Maybe four if we are generous.. In baseball, you have guys that won a World Series hit nearly 500 homeruns still not in the Hall of Fame, probably never going to get in the Hall of Fame like Fred McGriff. The standard is much higher. And frankly itís a standard I like much better.
    Yeah, I could agree with Yao Ming in terms of on-court production. Although that popularity aspect can't be discounted. Outside of him, how many players are there that don't deserve to be? I can't think of many.

  11. #111
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    Or they could be heavy 2 Championships.. Maybe DD Listens to Pop in the Time Out, and does NOT Foul Dirk in Game 7 going to the rim..

    And maybe DD could manage Better than 9 PTS, and 8 Turnovers in a close out game 6 of the NBA Finals.. You know the same game Duncan had 30 PTS and 17 Reb.. Spurs may have 7 Rings...
    And maybe DeRozan doesn't score 24 pts in the second half of that game and the go ahead 3 with seconds to go in the previous play.

    Dude, your basketball reasoning is extremely flawed. Good luck trying to give Duncan the type of floor spacing he needs to maximize his greatness with a non-shooting backourt of Tony and DeRozan.

  12. #112
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    And maybe DeRozan doesn't score 24 pts in the second half of that game and the go ahead 3 with seconds to go in the previous play.

    Dude, your basketball reasoning is extremely flawed. Good luck trying to give Duncan the type of floor spacing he needs to maximize his greatness with a non-shooting backourt of Tony and DeRozan.
    But it's a nice problem to try and figure when TD is your Team-Mate. Helps just a bit..

  13. #113
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    No, you are trolling. Just like rascal (a known long time Spurs hater) and hater. dbreiden83080 honestly thinks Manu isn't a top 58 player and that's why he isn't trolling.
    So it's all love for Manu or you are trolling huh? Yeah and I have flawed logic you say LOL.. Seems the people you think are trolls, have a level head on this issue.

  14. #114
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    Oh no he doesn't think Manu is a top 58 player...

    He's trolling
    He's too emotional on this issue.. No objectivity whatsoever.

  15. #115
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    So it's all love for Manu or you are trolling huh? Yeah and I have flawed logic you say LOL.. Seems the people you think are trolls, have a level head on this issue.
    Didn't you just read what I wrote?

    I don't think everybody that says Manu isn't a top 58 player is a troll. That's why I said You weren't a troll despite saying that. The thing is, I know, from years of posting here, that apalisoc_9, rascal and hater are well known trolls. apalisoc_9, for example, used to be all Manu and dismissive of Tony, now he turned his shtick around. That's why I engage on an argument with you, but not with them.

    Aren't you a long time poster? You should know these things.

  16. #116
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    He's too emotional on this issue.. No objectivity whatsoever.
    Dude, you are a bit slow, tbh.

  17. #117
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    But it's a nice problem to try and figure when TD is your Team-Mate. Helps just a bit..
    You never answered who you thought was the better player, Manu or DeRozan, tbh.

  18. #118
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    Didn't you just read what I wrote?

    I don't think everybody that says Manu isn't a top 58 player is a troll. That's why I said You weren't a troll despite saying that. The thing is, I know, from years of posting here, that apalisoc_9, rascal and hater are well known trolls. apalisoc_9, for example, used to be all Manu and dismissive of Tony, now he turned his shtick around. Aren't you a long time poster? You should know these things.
    Nothing that's been said was trolling. By anyone in the thread really.. The point was brought up that he is not a HOF player, I disagree with that, but that is not an unreasonable take.. Different people have different criteria for the HOF. I was discussing the MLB, and NFL HOF earlier, as the standards are higher.. Manu can be top 100 and that is reasonable.. Ranked somewhere 85-100 Still Reasonable. You telling me he is better than AI. Unreasonable..

  19. #119
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    He's too emotional on this issue.. No objectivity whatsoever.
    It has nothing to do with emotion or objectivity, tbh. I consider Gasol, for example, to also be a clearly better player than Iverson, tbh. And maybe, even better than Manu, too.

    I mention Gasol, 'cause he's another of those Manu level guys that is clearly underrated.

  20. #120
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    You never answered who you thought was the better player, Manu or DeRozan, tbh.
    Yes I did.. Go back and look..

  21. #121
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    Nothing that's been said was trolling. By anyone in the thread really.. The point was brought up that he is not a HOF player, I disagree with that, but that is not an unreasonable take.. Different people have different criteria for the HOF. I was discussing the MLB, and NFL HOF earlier, as the standards are higher.. Manu can be top 100 and that is reasonable.. Ranked somewhere 85-100 Still Reasonable. You telling me he is better than AI. Unreasonable..
    Just because you agree with those takes doesn't mean they weren't troll comments. Again, if you knew the history of those posters, you would realize what I'm saying.

  22. #122
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    It has nothing to do with emotion or objectivity, tbh. I consider Gasol, for example, to also be a clearly better player than Iverson, tbh. And maybe, even better than Manu, too.

    I mention Gasol, 'cause he's another of those Manu level guys that is clearly underrated.
    You might not like it. But I think he has your number on this one..

    You are from Argentina so you have a deluded homer opinion. Argentinian fan boys flooded Spurs talk after the Spurs drafted Manu and the hype for him skyrocketed.

  23. #123
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    Yes I did.. Go back and look..
    No, you never said "Manu" nor "DeRozan" on any of those answers.

  24. #124
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    Just because you agree with those takes doesn't mean they weren't troll comments. Again, if you knew the history of those posters, you would realize what I'm saying.
    Saying Manu is top 100 is not a Troll Comment. Saying he may not be a HOF player is not a troll comment either.. This was all laid out.. You just don't like the answers..

  25. #125
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    You might not like it. But I think he has your number on this one..
    He's a Suns fan posting hate comments about the Spurs since I signed here back in 2009, tbh.

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