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  1. #201
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    I think it's meaningless semantics saying someone is a 'superstar' or a 'star.' Manu played a huge part in Argentina winning a Gold Medal at the Olympics. You think there is one citizen in Argentina that doesn't think he's a 'superstar?' How about 4 NBA championships which he played a huge role in. He is a shoe-in Hall Of Fame player. Everything else is meaningless. Viva Manu! Just call him HOFer.
    It’s not meaningless at all. It’s a way to define a very good player, possibly a great player, versus someone that is an all-time great player. Personally I think he was a very good player, that had longevity thanks in large part to his head coach, and played on some all-time great teams. So not a superstar.

  2. #202
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    I think it's meaningless semantics saying someone is a 'superstar' or a 'star.' Manu played a huge part in Argentina winning a Gold Medal at the Olympics. You think there is one citizen in Argentina that doesn't think he's a 'superstar?' How about 4 NBA championships which he played a huge role in. He is a shoe-in Hall Of Fame player. Everything else is meaningless. Viva Manu! Just call him HOFer.
    I don't think the sentiment is that he couldn't have been a superstar, but he just didn't have that role in this team. That actually speaks to him humbleness and smarts that maybe if he took a lesser role, he would win a lot. And he did. On the NT his role was different, and while they also had success, they didn't have a TD.

  3. #203
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    I don't think the sentiment is that he couldn't have been a superstar, but he just didn't have that role in this team. That actually speaks to him humbleness and smarts that maybe if he took a lesser role, he would win a lot. And he did. On the NT his role was different, and while they also had success, they didn't have a TD.
    He was definitely very unselfish. He fit into the system perfectly. If he wanted to leave as a free agent and seek out a bigger role he obviously couldíve done that.

  4. #204
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    Sure.

    But not a player in the 50s range.

    Thatís generally reserved for players with large body of work and pr superstar
    The thing with him is that he's actually quite hard to rank because his path in the league has been very unique
    His raw stats are average and he was never the #1, but at the same time from 04 to 11 he was a top 5 SG in the league, he was way more impactful on winning than his numbers may suggest and he was so well rounded as a player he's thrived in any role he's been given
    Plus he has a serious case as the greatest international player ever, counting his accomplishments on both sides of the basketball world

  5. #205
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Sure.

    But not a player in the 50s range.

    Thatís generally reserved for players with large body of work and pr superstar
    Give me your top 50 players list, troll.

  6. #206
    Klaw apalisoc_9's Avatar
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    Give me your top 50 players list, troll.
    Not for you scrah. You know I like you as a poster, but you get butthurt if anyone puts manu outside of top 50. I mean playing like drexler, Pau etc have clearly achived more

  7. #207
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    Not for you scrah. You know I like you as a poster, but you get butthurt if anyone puts manu outside of top 50. I mean playing like drexler, Pau etc have clearly achived more
    For me if you are the man on a team, and you won the league MVP, had a finals run etc. That should count for more than being a part of an all-time great team and being a major contributor. Tons of franchise players could have won championships playing with a lot of talent. It just seems logical.

  8. #208
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Not for you scrah. You know I like you as a poster, but you get butthurt if anyone puts manu outside of top 50. I mean playing like drexler, Pau etc have clearly achived more
    I can live with players like Pau and Drexler being ahead of Manu. Give me 50 better though.

  9. #209
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    For me if you are the man on a team, and you won the league MVP, had a finals run etc. That should count for more than being a part of an all-time great team and being a major contributor. Tons of franchise players could have won championships playing with a lot of talent. It just seems logical.
    Bunch of players can win MVP given the perfect storm. Derrick Rose won NBA MVP.

  10. #210
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    Bunch of players can win MVP given the perfect storm. Derrick Rose won NBA MVP.
    And he was a great basketball player before the injuries. That’s a terrible example.

  11. #211
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    And he was a great basketball player before the injuries. That’s a terrible example.
    Not even half as good as Manu though.

  12. #212
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    Not even half as good as Manu though.
    Ok so now we are downgrading Rose.

    He was a 3 time all star, Rookie of the Year, first team all NBA, and league MVP. Bulls won 62 games best record in the league, lost to Lebron/Wade in the ECF. Manu should have played for Tom Thibodeau for 4 or 5 years the way he played his starters.. leaving Manu in a playoff game that was all over. With Pop Manu would have been comfortably chilling on the bench. Rose is tearing his ACL because Thibs was a fool..

    "There was also some debate about how Thibodeau handled Rose during the ill-fated 2011-12 campaign. Rose battled numerous injuries throughout the year, sporadically missing time and ultimately playing in only 39 regular-season contests.

    But when Rose returned from missing games that season, a common theme was playing him big minutes right away instead of easing him back into the lineup. He suffered his first injury in a 42-minute outing against the Minnesota Timberwolves on Jan. 10. After missing a game, he played 39 minutes and 41 minutes before going on the shelf for four more games. When he returned from that absence, he played nearly 38 minutes per game over the next eight games. Shortly after that, he went on the shelf again for five more games"


    https://www.blogabull.com/2014/10/14...se-joakim-noah

    How many times do I need to say that Manu was lucky to play for Pop?
    Last edited by dbreiden83080; 05-31-2020 at 02:21 PM.

  13. #213
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    I can live with players like Pau and Drexler being ahead of Manu. Give me 50 better though.
    easily 50 better. I'll start with Iverson.

  14. #214
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    Gervin was better. Maravich

    They have Gervin ranked higher but Maravich was better and they have him ranked lower than Manu.
    Last edited by rascal; 05-31-2020 at 11:33 AM.

  15. #215
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    Gervin was better.
    47 on the ESPN List.. Nice they did NOT forget about him..

    Tim
    David
    Ice

    Top 3 Spurs.. Then we can fight about 4 and 5..

  16. #216
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    Parker was better and should be 4'th on the list. I value a starting pg over a backup sg especially when the scoring averages are close.

  17. #217
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    Lilliard, Bernard King and Bob Lanier are ranked lower and all better. Every player below Manu all the way to 74 is better except Mutombo and Cowens.

  18. #218
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    easily 50 better. I'll start with Iverson.
    Unseld
    Miller
    Walton
    Gervin
    Wilkins
    AD
    Hayes
    Barry
    Westbrook
    Cousy at 41..

    Cousy was a product of the era IMO.. 40 starts with Chris Paul and there is no argument for Manu from 39 down with players like Kidd, McHale, Ewing on there..

  19. #219
    Groundhog Day TDfan2007's Avatar
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    Manu's ranking is just fine. As many here have noted, he's really tough to rank because of the unique cir stances around his arrival and career (late start, willingly coming off the bench for the sake of strategy).

    In making these lists, I still think you have to go with guys who have the individual body of work like AI over Manu, because dealing in "well he could have" arguments is pointless. However, there's no way in those 2000s Spurs teams would have been as successful if you swap AI with Manu.

    Manu was put in a great situation and also made personal sacrifices for team success, the same way Tony and Timmy did. Those 3 were perfect for each other, and I wouldn't have had it any other way. Let's not forget that those Spurs teams were a few bounces away from even more les. I'm super proud to say I was about to watch all 3 together in their primes.

  20. #220
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Manu's ranking is just fine. As many here have noted, he's really tough to rank because of the unique cir stances around his arrival and career (late start, willingly coming off the bench for the sake of strategy).

    In making these lists, I still think you have to go with guys who have the individual body of work like AI over Manu, because dealing in "well he could have" arguments is pointless. However, there's no way in those 2000s Spurs teams would have been as successful if you swap AI with Manu.

    Manu was put in a great situation and also made personal sacrifices for team success, the same way Tony and Timmy did. Those 3 were perfect for each other, and I wouldn't have had it any other way. Let's not forget that those Spurs teams were a few bounces away from even more les. I'm super proud to say I was about to watch all 3 together in their primes.
    If you consider only the NBA, sure, maybe (although I could make a case that 4 championships as an all-star level player are better than a regular season MVP and one final appearance). However, if you consider basketball in general, there's no way Manu's entire career can be ranked lower than Iversons. And taking away accomplishments (which are a consequence of cir stances) and focusing only on skill and impact as a basketball player, I have Manu pretty damn ahead of Iverson too.
    Last edited by DAF86; 05-31-2020 at 06:19 PM.

  21. #221
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    (although I could make a case that 4 championships as an all-star level player are better than a regular season MVP and one final appearance).
    And you'd be wrong. Allen Iverson was driving the bus. Manu was a passenger. Lets not stop there.. Barkley, Ewing also had finals runs with no ring. Barkley a league MVP that same season. Manu better than them too?

    However, if you consider basketball in general, there's no way Manu's entire career can be ranked lower than Iversons. And taking away accomplishments (which are a consequence of cir stances) and focusing only on skill and impact as a basketball player, I have Manu pretty damn ahead of Iverson too.
    Iverson is regarded as one of the best players of his generation.. You are painfully undervaluing his career..

  22. #222
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    And you'd be wrong. Allen Iverson was driving the bus. Manu was a passenger. Lets not stop there.. Barkley, Ewing also had finals runs with no ring. Barkley a league MVP that same season. Manu better than them too?
    Manu wasn't just a passanger, he was a co-pilot, alongside Tim and Tony. Saying Manu was just a "passanger" makes it seem like he was closer to a Fabricio Oberto, when he was actually closer to a Tim Duncan.

    Iverson is regarded as one of the best players of his generation.. You are painfully undervaluing his career..
    Dude, I grew up watching Iverson play, he's my favourite player of all-time. If I had an NBA wish, I would wish for AI to come back out of retirement and get his ring. I'm not undervaluing his career, I know his career as well as anybody else and that's why I know he's one of the most overrated players ever. I love the guy, but it's true. He had a very flashy, very fun style of play, that's why he was so popular, but that flashy, fun style of play was very inefficient too.

    In today's NBA, whith better understanding of efficient shots and styles of play, there's no way he could pull off what he pulled in the early 2000's. No coach would put up with a 6 foot nothing guy using the basketball like a yo-yo for 20 seconds only to take a tough fade away jumper from 22 feet and go 10 for 30 from the field for 30 pts. That type of just wouldn't cut it. In today's NBA there's no chance he wins a scoring tle, heck he probably wouldn't even be a top option (at least not if you want to be a real contender). He would be a Westbrook minus the height, assists and rebounds.

    Iverson made the best out of the era in which he played and the team that was built around him. Everybody talks about how he had no help, but what most people don't realize is that those Sixers' rosters were built so that Iverson could maximize his ball-hoggin ways. He was surrounded by an all-time great defensive team that didn't demand the ball at all, so that Iverson could put up all the shots he wanted without anybody else rising an eyebrow. Everytime he was paired alongside offensive talent, he couldn't make it work (Webber, Carmelo, US NT). It pains me to say it, but he was kind of a cancer, tbh.
    Last edited by DAF86; 06-01-2020 at 01:50 AM.

  23. #223
    Veteran spurs10's Avatar
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    It’s not meaningless at all. It’s a way to define a very good player, possibly a great player, versus someone that is an all-time great player. Personally I think he was a very good player, that had longevity thanks in large part to his head coach, and played on some all-time great teams. So not a superstar.
    I get your point, but again he is a superstar in his home country. In San Antonio he's about as popular as you can get. I don't always agree with how players are labeled. Tim is a great example, one the greatest to have ever played, but because he didn't sell junk food to kids he might not be a 'superstar.'

  24. #224
    Groundhog Day TDfan2007's Avatar
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    If you consider only the NBA, sure, maybe (although I could make a case that 4 championships as an all-star level player are better than a regular season MVP and one final appearance). However, if you consider basketball in general, there's no way Manu's entire career can be ranked lower than Iversons. And taking away accomplishments (which are a consequence of cir stances) and focusing only on skill and impact as a basketball player, I have Manu pretty damn ahead of Iverson too.
    The list was based on NBA players and NBA play. If it was based on one's today body of basketball work, Manu would be higher for sure. But just based on NBA performance, I'd say Manu is ranked favorably

  25. #225
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    The list was based on NBA players and NBA play. If it was based on one's today body of basketball work, Manu would be higher for sure. But just based on NBA performance, I'd say Manu is ranked favorably
    Link? If the list is closely related to the tle of this thread, "best playa of all-time", then there's no NBA only qulifier. I know NBA people like to claim the entirety of the basketball World, hence the motto "World Champions" when they are only US and one Canadian team champions, but still, if you are going to label your list "best players of all-time" then I'm going to use all basketball related compe ions to discuss the matter.

    But, for the sake of arguing, let's say that, indeed, there's an NBA only qualifier. What's the criteria to rank these NBA players? If the criteria is "most counting stats for a player" then sure, go ahead and rank Iverson over Manu. While your are at it, go ahead and rank players like DeRozan, Kevin Martin, and a bunch of others, ahead of him too. But, if it's open for interpretation and any kind of analysis or reasoning could be use to rank the players, like, for example, asking yourself the question "leaving cir stancial consequences aside, like stats and accolades, who do you think is actually the better player between these two?", then, sorry, but I would have to go with Manu, tbh.

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