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  1. #176
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    Manu closed almost all of those games, tbh... that was pretty usual around that time.
    Yeah he was the closer in a lot of those situations. Which was good because he was pretty reliable in those spots, a good foul shooter. So it was a good role for him.

  2. #177
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Can anyone name more than 2 playoff series outside of 2005 (a magical year for him) in which Manu completely took over and was the team's best player? Off the top of my head, 2008 against the Hornets comes to mind and 2011 against the Grizz.

    Manu was the guy who would give you his brilliance in certain games (usually game 5s for whatever reason), but he rarely displayed the consistency to take over a playoff series. It is what it is. He was the heart and X-factor of 3 of our le runs, and his 2014 Finals performance is wildly underrated.
    That's a dumb argument. The reason Manu didn't regularly dominate playoffs series is the same reason why he never regularly dominate regular seasons: he played alongside Tim ing Duncan. You know, the guy that is probably one of the 5 best players of all-time. Kobe Bryant didn't completely take over, and became the team's best player regularly on playoffs series when he played alongside Shaq, either, tbh.

    Oh, and to answer your question: outside of that championship winning run in '05 (you know, no biggie. As if any NBA player has one of those), and those two series you mentioned, you have Dallas and Suns in 2010 and an argument could be made for Dallas and OKC in 2014.
    Last edited by DAF86; 05-30-2020 at 01:38 AM.

  3. #178
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Can anyone name more than 2 playoff series outside of 2005 (a magical year for him) in which Manu completely took over and was the team's best player? Off the top of my head, 2008 against the Hornets comes to mind and 2011 against the Grizz.

    Manu was the guy who would give you his brilliance in certain games (usually game 5s for whatever reason), but he rarely displayed the consistency to take over a playoff series. It is what it is. He was the heart and X-factor of 3 of our le runs, and his 2014 Finals performance is wildly underrated.
    Not only those 2014 finals, that entire 2014 playoffs run is one of Manu's most underrated gems. He just chilled on that gimmie of a series vs the Blazers, that's why his overall numbers don't look as impressive.

    That's another thing with Manu: he was the anti-stat padder. He would chill the out on games that didn't require him to do anything. Other guys would take advantage of easy games to get their numbers. Not Manu, those were the games he used to rest and he didn't give a if he ended with 2 pts on 2 half-assed jumpshots.

  4. #179
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Think he has a case for 14 vs Dallas and OKC, although I wouldn't say he "took over" (it was great team effort)
    But the point is his job wasn't to be the best player throughout a series (he played with a top 10 player ever and a great PG), he had to be the one who put us over the top and honestly he did many times, I think even his 07 run happens to be somehow underrated
    Could he be the main guy on a team? I think yes if given that responsibility, and it would have been fun to see him considering how that went outside of the NBA, but we'll never know and I guess he's happy with his 4 rings
    That shouldn't even be a question. There are many successful NBA teams in history that never had a player as good as Manu. Off the top of my head:

    -The mid 2000's Pistons. Swap Hamilton for Manu and Manu becomes "the man" on a championship level team.

    -The pre-Kawhi Raptors. That's a 60 wins team. Swap DeRozan for Manu and they might become real contenders.

    -The 2012-14 Spurs. Put prime Manu on that team and he might be seen as a top 20 player of all-time right now (put prime Duncan and he's the GOAT).

    -Heck, bring the entire 2000's Argentina NT to the NBA and that's a 50 wins team that Manu could lead for over a decade.

    In terms of talent, leadership, clutchness, intelligence, etc. There's no doubt Manu could have been a franchise player. The only card the haters have to play is the "durability" one, for a guy that played professional ball (with barely taking summers off) for a quarter of a century.
    Last edited by DAF86; 05-30-2020 at 02:07 AM.

  5. #180
    Groundhog Day TDfan2007's Avatar
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    Too many, tbh... Remember series against the Jazz, the Mavs... who could forget against the Suns??? Way too many.

    EDIT: Almost forgot about the block on Harden against the Rockets, sealing the series. Also used to pwn the Nuggets on the regular, when they still had Melo/AI.
    That's what I mean. He gave you moments and individual games (like game 5 in 2005 versus the Sonic's), but rarely put together a consistently great performance over a series.

    Like I said, he was our x-factor. When he was on, we were essentially unbeatable, because a great Manu game wasn't just scoring. He would control the tempo, make big plays, and hustle his ass off.

  6. #181
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    That's what I mean. He gave you moments and individual games (like game 5 in 2005 versus the Sonic's), but rarely put together a consistently great performance over a series.

    Like I said, he was our x-factor. When he was on, we were essentially unbeatable, because a great Manu game wasn't just scoring. He would control the tempo, make big plays, and hustle his ass off.
    I 100% Agree. But HE was NOT a Superstar player. Just an All Star..

    If Manu was that true Superstar level player. Man the Spurs wins 7 or 8 rings easily. Look at 2008 and that ty loss in 5 to the Lakers. He averaged 12 PTS on 36% in 32 MPG. Tim shot the ball somewhat poorly that series as well shooting just 42%.. He put up 22/17 in the series. Tony average 19 on 47%. What we needed was the 3rd guy to really step up and put some points on the board that series to have a shot, because the Lakers had the better overall team. Manu just could not do it. Look at game 1 we lose by 4 Duncan goes for 30/18. Tony has 18 PTS on 7/17. Manu what did he do? 10 PTS from Manu in 37 Minutes.. He shot 3/13. Critical game 4 we have to tie the series.. Manu shoots 2/8 in 36 Minutes.. Spurs lose by 2.. That is not a Superstar..

  7. #182
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    I 100% Agree. But HE was NOT a Superstar player. Just an All Star..

    If Manu was that true Superstar level player. Man the Spurs wins 7 or 8 rings easily. Look at 2008 and that ty loss in 5 to the Lakers. He averaged 12 PTS on 36% in 32 MPG. Tim shot the ball somewhat poorly that series as well shooting just 42%.. He put up 22/17 in the series. Tony average 19 on 47%. What we needed was the 3rd guy to really step up and put some points on the board that series to have a shot, because the Lakers had the better overall team. Manu just could not do it. Look at game 1 we lose by 4 Duncan goes for 30/18. Tony has 18 PTS on 7/17. Manu what did he do? 10 PTS from Manu in 37 Minutes.. He shot 3/13. Critical game 4 we have to tie the series.. Manu shoots 2/8 in 36 Minutes.. Spurs lose by 2.. That is not a Superstar..
    Yeah but the guy was actually injured

  8. #183
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    Yeah but the guy was actually injured
    Durability... Not going to be that guy on heavy minutes.. Won't hold up..

  9. #184
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    That's what I mean. He gave you moments and individual games (like game 5 in 2005 versus the Sonic's), but rarely put together a consistently great performance over a series.

    Like I said, he was our x-factor. When he was on, we were essentially unbeatable, because a great Manu game wasn't just scoring. He would control the tempo, make big plays, and hustle his ass off.
    Yes but he wasn't asked to put up superstar numbers every game, he's always been the 3rd guy in terms of touches and many times he made the most out of it
    Which is why his big performances usually didn't come in blowouts or games we controlled throughout
    You mentioned his Game 5 against the Sonics, well he was consistent throughout that whole series tbh (he really was during that whole run) that was a pivotal game, Tony and Timmy were struggling and so he took over

  10. #185
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    Yes but he wasn't asked to put up superstar numbers every game, he's always been the 3rd guy in terms of touches and many times he made the most out of it
    Which is why his big performances usually didn't come in blowouts or games we controlled throughout
    You mentioned his Game 5 against the Sonics, well he was consistent throughout that whole series tbh (he really was during that whole run) that was a pivotal game, Tony and Timmy were struggling and so he took over
    But at times when he was asked to do more. He did not.. And when I point one example out you say "He was injured" Well I respect the heart. But goes to the prior point made about his durability. Manu was always going to be a 6th man eventually. One way or another that was happening..

  11. #186
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    Durability... Not going to be that guy on heavy minutes.. Won't hold up..
    It is not a matter of heavy minutes, he was just injured and had already played through two series with it
    He's been the 3rd guy that put up numbers and came through when needed for most of his carrer, as much as we'd love it we can't really think that every year we didn't ring was a missed occasion, that's irrational
    You don't think he's a superstar? Fair enough, you put other all stars in his position thay want out after 2 seasons

  12. #187
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    But at times when he was asked to do more. He did not.. And when I point one example out you say "He was injured" Well I respect the heart. But goes to the prior point made about his durability. Manu was always going to be a 6th man eventually. One way or another that was happening..
    The point is that many of the times he was asked to do more he did (the whole 05 run, second part of the Suns series in 07, Jazz in 07, Hornets in 08, Mavs in 10, Grizz in 11, Mavs and OKC in 14 and there's probably more), but he didn't have to be the star, he was playing alongside and all time great

  13. #188
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    The point is that many of the times he was asked to do more he did (the whole 05 run, second part of the Suns series in 07, Jazz in 07, Hornets in 08, Mavs in 10, Grizz in 11, Mavs and OKC in 14 and there's probably more), but he didn't have to be the star, he was playing alongside and all time great
    He did step up.. And he also did not at times.. He was not a Superstar player. He was an All Star Level player.. 2013 finals was painful to watch man.. A 38 year old Tim playing that well.. And Manu Geez it was bad..

  14. #189
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    He did step up.. And he also did not at times.. He was not a Superstar player. He was an All Star Level player.. 2013 finals was painful to watch man.. A 38 year old Tim playing that well.. And Manu Geez it was bad..
    He was in 13, we all know it, it was probably the worst season of his career, but it was so bad I wouldn't take it as an example of anything if not that he was past his prime, injury issues took a toll on him more than in the past and he needed to adjust to survive (kinda like Wade the following year, or Timmy in 11)
    But yeah, Manu did not step up at times exactly like every basketball player in the history of the game, he still stepped up more times than not and we won 4 rings with him and made the WCF 4 other times, we shouldn't really talk about it as if that was the norm
    If you think he wasn't a superstar I'm okay with it, if you don't think he could've been more than a 3rd guy/fake 6th man on a team then not so much
    Last edited by From Downtown; 05-30-2020 at 08:31 PM.

  15. #190
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    But at times when he was asked to do more. He did not.. And when I point one example out you say "He was injured" Well I respect the heart. But goes to the prior point made about his durability. Manu was always going to be a 6th man eventually. One way or another that was happening..
    Key phrase being "at times". Most times than not Manu showed up when he needed, but he's only human. No player in history plays as well as needed everytime. If there were, we would have undefeated players.

  16. #191
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    It is not a matter of heavy minutes, he was just injured and had already played through two series with it
    He's been the 3rd guy that put up numbers and came through when needed for most of his carrer, as much as we'd love it we can't really think that every year we didn't ring was a missed occasion, that's irrational
    You don't think he's a superstar? Fair enough, you put other all stars in his position thay want out after 2 seasons
    He’s playing hurt when he is in more of a secondary role. What I am saying is that speaks to his lack of durability if much more was put on his shoulders with another franchise. Heavy minutes and he’s carrying the load for five or more years. He was going to break down. I think that’s pretty clear.

  17. #192
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    I 100% Agree. But HE was NOT a Superstar player. Just an All Star..

    If Manu was that true Superstar level player. Man the Spurs wins 7 or 8 rings easily. Look at 2008 and that ty loss in 5 to the Lakers. He averaged 12 PTS on 36% in 32 MPG. Tim shot the ball somewhat poorly that series as well shooting just 42%.. He put up 22/17 in the series. Tony average 19 on 47%. What we needed was the 3rd guy to really step up and put some points on the board that series to have a shot, because the Lakers had the better overall team. Manu just could not do it. Look at game 1 we lose by 4 Duncan goes for 30/18. Tony has 18 PTS on 7/17. Manu what did he do? 10 PTS from Manu in 37 Minutes.. He shot 3/13. Critical game 4 we have to tie the series.. Manu shoots 2/8 in 36 Minutes.. Spurs lose by 2.. That is not a Superstar..
    Dude, stop jumping on that flawed argument. Manu didn't need to be consistently great. He played alongside a top 5 player of all-time. But the fact that he didn't need to be consistently great, it doesn't mean he couldn't be. In fact, for the role he had, he was pretty ing consistent.

    Do you remember Chris Bosh? He was consistently putting up 20+ pts when he was the man in Toronto. He went to Miami and became the scapegoat. It's not easy to be "consistent" having 3rd option touches.

  18. #193
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    Dude, stop jumping on that flawed argument. Manu didn't need to be consistently great. He played alongside a top 5 player of all-time. But the fact that he didn't need to be consistently great, it doesn't mean he couldn't be. In fact, for the role he had, he was pretty ing consistent.

    Do you remember Chris Bosh? He was consistently putting up 20+ pts when he was the man in Toronto. He went to Miami and became the scapegoat. It's not easy to be "consistent" having 3rd option touches.
    OK but you take it as an insult when I say he’s not a superstar. That’s not an insult. It’s an honest evaluation of the man’s career. Bosh also not a superstar. He’s an all star. These are not insults. Pop Saw to it that Manu had a very long and productive career.

  19. #194
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    He’s playing hurt when he is in more of a secondary role. What I am saying is that speaks to his lack of durability if much more was put on his shoulders with another franchise. Heavy minutes and he’s carrying the load for five or more years. He was going to break down. I think that’s pretty clear.
    You know everyone can get injured at any time right?

  20. #195
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    You know everyone can get injured at any time right?
    Yes..

  21. #196
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    OK but you take it as an insult when I say he’s not a superstar. That’s not an insult. It’s an honest evaluation of the man’s career. Bosh also not a superstar. He’s an all star. These are not insults. Pop Saw to it that Manu had a very long and productive career.
    When did I do that? IMHO, "Superstars" are only the true elite players like Duncan, Lebron, etc. I never said Manu was a "Superstar", just a more than capable franchise player.

  22. #197
    Veteran spurs10's Avatar
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    I think it's meaningless semantics saying someone is a 'superstar' or a 'star.' Manu played a huge part in Argentina winning a Gold Medal at the Olympics. You think there is one citizen in Argentina that doesn't think he's a 'superstar?' How about 4 NBA championships which he played a huge role in. He is a shoe-in Hall Of Fame player. Everything else is meaningless. Viva Manu! Just call him HOFer.

  23. #198
    Klaw apalisoc_9's Avatar
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    I think it's meaningless semantics saying someone is a 'superstar' or a 'star.' Manu played a huge part in Argentina winning a Gold Medal at the Olympics. You think there is one citizen in Argentina that doesn't think he's a 'superstar?' How about 4 NBA championships which he played a huge role in. He is a shoe-in Hall Of Fame player. Everything else is meaningless. Viva Manu! Just call him HOFer.
    Sure.

    But not a player in the 50s range.

    That’s generally reserved for players with large body of work and pr superstar

  24. #199
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    That's what I mean. He gave you moments and individual games (like game 5 in 2005 versus the Sonic's), but rarely put together a consistently great performance over a series.

    Like I said, he was our x-factor. When he was on, we were essentially unbeatable, because a great Manu game wasn't just scoring. He would control the tempo, make big plays, and hustle his ass off.
    Limited minutes, and his unselfishness to come from the bench, tbh... but I would agree a lot of times this team went only as far as he carried it.

    He was more of a leader for Team Argentina, and he obviously lifted that team to success also.

  25. #200
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    That's what I mean. He gave you moments and individual games (like game 5 in 2005 versus the Sonic's), but rarely put together a consistently great performance over a series.

    Like I said, he was our x-factor. When he was on, we were essentially unbeatable, because a great Manu game wasn't just scoring. He would control the tempo, make big plays, and hustle his ass off.
    And BTW, this applies to TD also, in the sense that he would average 30-10-5 in a series completely pedestrian. You would have to look at the numbers after the series to see what a monster he was.

    The few exceptions I would make to that with TD was the '03 series against the Lakers (Manu also played really well then), and a few others back in that time where our offense was basically 4-down almost every time.

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