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  1. #51
    "The ball don't lie." dbestpro's Avatar
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    There's no functional difference in the role they played on either side of the ball. Duncan was always a C, he just started next to another C and primarily played nominal PF for his first 9 seasons, which is why it's accurate to refer to him as the greatest PF of all-time.
    Having watched basketball since the 1960s, I could not disagree more. Duncan was a true PF and only moved to a center role when Pop rolled out small ball. This thinking would basically say that any rebounding PF is actually a center. It simply is a false narrative brought on by the modern day destruction of the center position.

  2. #52
    Chunky Brazil's Avatar
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    More skilled ? at what tbh ?

  3. #53
    44-50-21-1 Biggems's Avatar
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    Ask the Admiral about Hakeem's 'Dream Shake"? But like others have mentioned in this thread, Tim gets my nod just for his longevity of greatness over a long career, much longer than Olajuwon.
    Ask the dream why he needed help all series to guard the Admiral. David was double and triple teamed game in and game out....Rudy T absolutely owned Bob Hill in the series.

  4. #54
    Veteran Maddog's Avatar
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    https://www.basketball-reference.com...x=bbr__players

    Raw Stat wise they are pretty even maybe even advantage Hakeem, But Tim really much higher on WS and WS/48. As mentioned earlier the game has changed. By the late 90s it had become very slow- then changes in defenses (Zones etc)

    Memories are often subjective, and Mario played with Hakeem at his peak- but also a few years as he declined.

    TD Hakeem
    5 rings 2 Rings
    6 Finals 3 Finals
    9 Conference Finals 4 Conference Finals
    251 Playoff games 145 Playoff Games

    I think Tim was the overall better player, but I think Hakeem is underappreciated- he played for some really mediocre teams that for 4 straight years in his prime couldn't get out of the first round.

  5. #55
    Veteran ginobilized's Avatar
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    I can't wait for TD to come out with his Brent Barry was more skilled than Mario Elie rebuttal

    That will teach him

  6. #56
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    Having watched basketball since the 1960s, I could not disagree more. Duncan was a true PF and only moved to a center role when Pop rolled out small ball. This thinking would basically say that any rebounding PF is actually a center. It simply is a false narrative brought on by the modern day destruction of the center position.
    That's not true. He was a C in college who only primarily played PF because he was drafted to a team with a top 2-3 C in the league at the time. Sure, traditionally many players have played up a position in college because the rosters are smaller, but his skillset always veered more towards it.

    Think about it. Sure, he had uncommon agility and handle for a C, but as far as core skills: dominant mid-low post scorer, rebounder and rim protector, with a so-so jumper and good, not great defender range. That basically sums up Olajuwon. The difference was, the Rockets listed Sampson as the nominal PF and Olajuwon didn't chafe at the C label.

    My take on positions: https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/sho...1#post10146981

  7. #57
    Groundhog Day TDfan2007's Avatar
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    Post play, Hakeem was way better than Duncan.
    They were different. Timmy had all of the moves, but his post moves were more about positioning, leverage, and footwork. Hakeem used more upper body jukes and spins, but less pivots/drop steps. Both were completely unstoppable on the block.

    Individual defense Hakeem has the most blocks all time and is top 10 in steals. He was more than slightly better individually
    You do realize that both of those stats are mainly a result of help defense, right? Also, that's a really simplistic way of trying to make a point...

  8. #58
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Individual defense Hakeem has the most blocks all time and is top 10 in steals. He was more than slightly better individually
    arent blocks more indicative of team defense (marcus camby) than individual D?

  9. #59
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    FT shooting: big edge to Hakeem
    Hakeem career FT% - 71.2
    Duncan career FT% - 69.6

  10. #60
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    Ask the dream why he needed help all series to guard the Admiral. David was double and triple teamed game in and game out....Rudy T absolutely owned Bob Hill in the series.
    Facts!! Bob Hill made not one single adjustment.

  11. #61
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    That's not true. He was a C in college who only primarily played PF because he was drafted to a team with a top 2-3 C in the league at the time. Sure, traditionally many players have played up a position in college because the rosters are smaller, but his skillset always veered more towards it.

    Think about it. Sure, he had uncommon agility and handle for a C, but as far as core skills: dominant mid-low post scorer, rebounder and rim protector, with a so-so jumper and good, not great defender range. That basically sums up Olajuwon. The difference was, the Rockets listed Sampson as the nominal PF and Olajuwon didn't chafe at the C label.

    My take on positions: https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/sho...1#post10146981
    But TD played center in college for the same reason he played it for long stretches for the Spurs......they didn't have anybody else. The 2 players recruited ahead of him were ruled ineligible.

  12. #62
    Groundhog Day TDfan2007's Avatar
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    Hakeem career FT% - 71.2
    Duncan career FT% - 69.6
    That's a fair point lol, but I'm docking Timmy for his FT shooting in his prime. It's arbitrary to do so, I know, but the Spurs lost quite a few big games because of his shakiness at the FT line. He improved significantly from 2011 on, but in his prime he was a liability there in all but one season (01-02).

  13. #63
    Veteran Arcadian's Avatar
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    Such a meaningless statement. "Skills" is such a broad category, all you can say is they each had better skills in different ways. Tim the overall better player though.

  14. #64
    Groundhog Day TDfan2007's Avatar
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    Tim Duncan is one of the most complete basketball players ever. Anything he didn't do (shoot 3s, chuck 20+ shots to get his points) was all in the interest of the team. He knew what it took to win, and he did exactly what was needed, nothing more.

    Two aspects about Timmy that are very underrated are how clutch he was and his passing ability. He was the Spurs closer for their first 2 les and almost always stepped up his game in the playoffs, even in his later years. As for his passing, after his first couple of seasons, Timmy became one of the best big man passers in the game. He's one of the few superstars in NBA history who could totally control a game without dominating the ball, and it was beautiful to watch

  15. #65
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    Post play, Hakeem was way better than Duncan.
    Tim Duncan was so incredible on the block to say anybody is much better than him in terms of post play pretty much means to me you didn’t watch.

  16. #66
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    That's a fair point lol, but I'm docking Timmy for his FT shooting in his prime. It's arbitrary to do so, I know, but the Spurs lost quite a few big games because of his shakiness at the FT line. He improved significantly from 2011 on, but in his prime he was a liability there in all but one season (01-02).
    Foul shooting is the one strange thing about his career. Because by 2002 it appeared he was now very good at the line. Then for the next few seasons he really struggled. Was changing up his approach. Taking forever to shoot each foul shot, when he used to shoot them very quickly. For Whatever reason it became a little bit of a mental block.

  17. #67
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    But TD played center in college for the same reason he played it for long stretches for the Spurs......they didn't have anybody else. The 2 players recruited ahead of him were ruled ineligible.
    Other than around '09-'11ish, the Spurs were always well stocked with C's and it's not like they had a clear starter at PF, that necessitated his shifting to defending C's.

  18. #68
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    Other than around '09-'11ish, the Spurs were always well stocked with C's and it's not like they had a clear starter at PF, that necessitated his shifting to defending C's.
    That was actually the time frame I was referencing. I guess I should have been more clear. But to your point, he basically had to produce for both post positions in those years.

  19. #69
    Make a trade steal
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    Probably true - definitely more skilled than Shaq. But they're both better - Shaq was the most dominant offensive big man of all time, Duncan was more consistent & performed at a higher level for longer.
    Nope Wilt Chamberlain was the most dominate.

  20. #70
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    Ask the dream why he needed help all series to guard the Admiral. David was double and triple teamed game in and game out....Rudy T absolutely owned Bob Hill in the series.
    Not a Bob Hill fan at all, but his plan was twofold: play the shooters, and let Hakeem go one on one. David got scored on a lot, but it would have worked if Rodbaby would have done his job, and stayed on Horry. A nearly identical plan worked to perfection a little over a decade later against PHO. We played the shooters, and A'm'a'r'e went off, but we won. No one talks about him outplaying Tim because we won.

  21. #71
    Believe. Michael Jordan.'s Avatar
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    Tim Duncan was so incredible on the block to say anybody is much better than him in terms of post play pretty much means to me you didn’t watch.
    Post play, Hakeem had the speed and agility to take his defenders off the dribble and score at the rim. He was better at it than Tim. His moves in the post were unstoppable just about.

  22. #72
    Believe. Michael Jordan.'s Avatar
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    Tim Duncan was so incredible on the block to say anybody is much better than him in terms of post play pretty much means to me you didn’t watch.
    Post play, Hakeem had the speed and agility to take his defenders off the dribble and score at the rim. He was better at it than Tim. His moves in the post were unstoppable just about.

  23. #73
    Believe. Michael Jordan.'s Avatar
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    More skilled ? at what tbh ?
    Scoring. Free throw shooting. Post play. Steals. Ability to guard 1-5. Agility. Speed. Footwork.

  24. #74
    Believe. Michael Jordan.'s Avatar
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    Interesting stat, as Hakeem’s teammates Mitc Wiggins and Lloyd were both banned from the NBA in 87 for drug use, Lloyd averaged about 17 a game that 86 season and 7 points a game in that finals series against Boston.

  25. #75
    Groundhog Day TDfan2007's Avatar
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    Post play, Hakeem had the speed and agility to take his defenders off the dribble and score at the rim. He was better at it than Tim. His moves in the post were unstoppable just about.
    Someone needs to look up film of prime Tim Duncan. His faceup game was incredible and he could take almost anyone off the dribble from the high post. , even on 1 knee he was turning and facing effectively from 15 ft and in. Speed means almost nothing in low post play, btw, so not sure what you're getting at there.

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