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  1. #51
    Veteran Killakobe81's Avatar
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    All soft as Charmin, tbh.
    Your boys Bowen, Manu, Sjax Horry? david, Timmy and Pop didnt think so

  2. #52
    Because I choose to. Neo.'s Avatar
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    Brilliant post.

    But KG is not your typical all-around player, he was sensational all-around player and Dirk was scoring just a couple more points per game. Still, Dirk was considerably better scorer, was defended much tighter, drew doubles. He was warping defenses something Kevin couldn't do as well.
    oh i agree, i didnt intend to diminish how good of an all around player he actually was, just that its more common to find that type of player, than clutch scorers. in KG and Dirk's cases, KG was an elite all around player while Dirk was an elite clutch scorer.

    But KG was extremely versatile, he could defend point guards and centers, was beter passer and etc. He had so many checks at so many aspects of basketball. Just look at this:



    That's unbelivable level of play. Sometimes in the clutch, you have to do things other than scoring.
    i absolutely agree with this as well, which is what makes a guy like Lebron so incredibly great.

    I think Dirk's ring in 2011 made him greater than KG in the eyes of vast majority of people. He played for much better managed franchise too. It's a shame that Sam Cassell was injured in WCF in 2004. Minnesota could win it all that year. Coulda, woulda, shoulda...

    Still, I'm okay that Dirk ranked higher. I just think that it's not that one-sided and arguments can be made for both guys.
    again i agree. i feel dirk was a greater, more valuable player overall, but its not like hes just far and away above kg, its a pretty close call between the two, and each could be more useful than the other in a team building situation depending on how the team is built

  3. #53
    6X ST MVP
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    Your boys Bowen, Manu, Sjax Horry? david, Timmy and Pop didnt think so
    They know more than anyone about "the star treatment" that occurs in the NBA.

  4. #54
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    could have would have should have

    fact is manu never was a franchise player at any point of his career. i also dont doubt that he could have had success as i feel he was always very underrated and underappreciated. regardless, he never actually did.

    on the other hand, dirk had a type of long-term success that few players have ever had (winning 50+ for 11 straight years in a tough western conference, getting to the finals twice, winning a championship, finals MVP, league MVP, 11 all-nba selections including 4 first-teams in a forward heavy era), which is more baffling that you say he is not a true elite franchise player, when he actually legitimately was, unlike manu who never was the franchise player at any point, yet you think he is a tier right below true elite franchise players

    to say dirk wasnt a true elite franchise player (when he was), and that manu is in the same tier as him as being just below true elite franchise players (despite never at any point being a franchise player period), is about as ridiculous as it gets. basically, manu > dirk levels of bad.
    When I talk about true elite franchise players, I'm talking about guys like Duncan and Lebron. Dirk isn't on that level, imho.

  5. #55
    Because I choose to. Neo.'s Avatar
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    When I talk about true elite franchise players, I'm talking about guys like Duncan and Lebron. Dirk isn't on that level, imho.
    then manu should be two or three tiers below those guys, not one.

  6. #56
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    Couldn't agree more. And I think that two-way bigs are the most valuable commodity not only in basketball but in all of North American sports in general
    You mean like Magic and Tim?

  7. #57
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    These are just pla udes that don't address any point I brought up.
    It adresses it in the sense that if I were only by peaks I would have Kawhi at 7 or 8, but since I consider the longevity aspect you mention, he's not even on my top 20.

  8. #58
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    then manu should be two or three tiers below those guys, not one.

  9. #59
    Believe. i'm_still_beta's Avatar
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    You mean like Magic and Tim?
    Not like Magic but like 01-02, 02-03 Tim, 92-93, 93-94 Hakeem, 03-04 Garnett, 76-77 Kareem.

    There are 3 phases of the game:
    1. Offense
    2. Neutral (rebounding)
    3. Defense

    Guys like Tim, KG, Hakeem and Kareem can dominate all 3 phases, and guys like Kobe and Jordan only 1 and it's offense. While I agree that guards have higher offensive ceiling because of their ability to drive to the hoop and play of the ball, 2-way bigs can still dominate offense and drawing double and triple teams, generating easy offense for teammates. Guards are to small to dominate boards (lol at those who think that 11 boards from Westbrook are as valuable as 11 boards from Duncan who don't steal them from teammmates and boxes out other centers and power forwards allowing teammates to take easy uncontested rebounds) and protect the rim.

  10. #60
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    Not like Magic but like 01-02, 02-03 Tim, 92-93, 93-94 Hakeem, 03-04 Garnett, 76-77 Kareem.

    There are 3 phases of the game:
    1. Offense
    2. Neutral (rebounding)
    3. Defense

    Guys like Tim, KG, Hakeem and Kareem can dominate all 3 phases, and guys like Kobe and Jordan only 1 and it's offense. While I agree that guards have higher offensive ceiling because of their ability to drive to the hoop and play of the ball, 2-way bigs can still dominate offense and drawing double and triple teams, generating easy offense for teammates. Guards are to small to dominate boards (lol at those who think that 11 boards from Westbrook are as valuable as 11 boards from Duncan who don't steal them from teammmates and boxes out other centers and power forwards allowing teammates to take easy uncontested rebounds) and protect the rim.
    Yup. Bigs like Cartwright, Wennington, Longley are unsung heroes in the Bulls success. Longley was an All-American IIRC ffs. And Cartwright made the all-star team as a rookie.

  11. #61
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Seeing a few KG over Dirk rankings and not sure how or why that is . KG never led his team to a le. 0 Finals MVP. I think he made it out of the first round once in Minnesota? And Dirk pretty much destroyed him head to head. 37-20 in their matchups. Swept KG in the 2002 playoffs.
    KG didn't lead his team to a championship? He was, by far, the Celtics best player in '08. That's why he finished 3rd in regular season MVP voting that year. Little known fact, he also lead them in scoring in the playoffs. People remember that Pierce won finals MVP that year and mistakenly believe that Garnett wasn't head and shoulders the main reason for them ringing that year.

    I think when comparing KG vs Dirk a lot of folks are underrating KG's overall game and impact on the floor. During his prime, KG would put up the same scoring numbers than Dirk, but he would also add assists, rebounds and all-time great defense. I would say that KG > Dirk is a pretty clear scenario, tbh.

  12. #62
    Because I choose to. Neo.'s Avatar
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    KG didn't lead his team to a championship? He was, by far, the Celtics best player in '08. That's why he finished 3rd in regular season MVP voting that year. Little known fact, he also lead them in scoring in the playoffs. People remember that Pierce won finals MVP that year and mistakenly believe that Garnett wasn't head and shoulders the main reason for them ringing that year.
    he was their best player, but certainly not "by far". otherwise he would have been their go-to guy in the clutch too, whereas he was generally the 3rd option behind pierce and ray.

    I think when comparing KG vs Dirk a lot of folks are underrating KG's overall game and impact on the floor. During his prime, KG would put up the same scoring numbers than Dirk, but he would also add assists, rebounds and all-time great defense. I would say that KG > Dirk is a pretty clear scenario, tbh.
    kg didn't put up the same scoring numbers as dirk by any means, he only twice averaged more than 23 ppg (his highest being 24.2), while dirk did so 9 times. and lets not even begin to compare their actual scoring skillsets, it's literally not comparable. dirk >>> kg by far in that department.

  13. #63
    Believe. Dirks_Finale's Avatar
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    he was their best player, but certainly not "by far". otherwise he would have been their go-to guy in the clutch too, whereas he was generally the 3rd option behind pierce and ray.



    kg didn't put up the same scoring numbers as dirk by any means, he only twice averaged more than 23 ppg (his highest being 24.2), while dirk did so 9 times. and lets not even begin to compare their actual scoring skillsets, it's literally not comparable. dirk >>> kg by far in that department.
    This post pretty much said it all. And agree with Neo's previous post on the subject. KG gets more check marks in the different aspects of the game. But Dirk's scoring ability, clutchness and ability to draw constant double teams makes him a tad more valuable. I have him maybe 18th overall and KG is not far behind.

  14. #64
    Because I choose to. Neo.'s Avatar
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    i mean in the end i guess it all comes down to opinion, and no way is daf going to change his considering he truly believes that manu =/> dirk, and is only 1 tier below guys like mj, kareem, bron, and timmy

  15. #65
    Veteran KobesAchilles's Avatar
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    Dirk is better than KG. I always felt like KGs defense was overrated. Minn was never a great defensive team and his “great” individual defense led to no team success. And for all the that Dirk takes for his defense, KG doesn’t get for his running away from clutch moments. When Dallas needed a bucket they went to Dirk and he either delivered or atleast took the damn shot and didn’t run away from the moment. When Minn needed a bucket KG never stepped up, he passed up the ball a lot, and just seemed scared. And when Bos needed a bucket they went nowhere near KG.

  16. #66
    Because I choose to. Neo.'s Avatar
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    Dirk is better than KG. I always felt like KGs defense was overrated. Minn was never a great defensive team and his “great” individual defense led to no team success. And for all the that Dirk takes for his defense, KG doesn’t get for his running away from clutch moments. When Dallas needed a bucket they went to Dirk and he either delivered or atleast took the damn shot and didn’t run away from the moment. When Minn needed a bucket KG never stepped up, he passed up the ball a lot, and just seemed scared. And when Bos needed a bucket they went nowhere near KG.
    this

    even in boston i cant name how many times i watched as he was hitting wide open midrange shots all game long, then in crunch time suddenly started bricking them

  17. #67
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    he was their best player, but certainly not "by far". otherwise he would have been their go-to guy in the clutch too, whereas he was generally the 3rd option behind pierce and ray.
    Garnett's lead over the second best Celtic in '08: +.058 WS / + 1.4 OBPM / + 2.1 DBPM / +3.6 BPM

    For comparisson's sake, here are other "clear alphas" numbers in years they won:

    Kobe in '09: -.019 (yeah, that's negative. Gasol had a better WS/48 than Kobe) / + 1.6 OBPM / - 0.2 DBPM / +1.4 BPM

    Duncan in '05: +.005 WS / - 0.7 OBPM / 0.0 DBPM / 0.7 BPM

    Lebron in '12: +.071 WS / + 2.2 OBPM / 0.8 DBPM / 3.0 BPM

    And last, but not least, Dirk in '11: -.005 (would you look at this? Dirk's historic run has actually another player with the better WS/48 ) / + 2.8 OBPM / -1.8 DBPM / + 2.3 BPM

    So, as you can see. If Garnett wasn't clearly and "by far" the best Celtic player in '08, then neither of these other guys were. Would you agree with the statement that Dirk wasn't the Mavs' best player in '11 "by far"?

    ]kg didn't put up the same scoring numbers as dirk by any means, he only twice averaged more than 23 ppg (his highest being 24.2), while dirk did so 9 times. and lets not even begin to compare their actual scoring skillsets, it's literally not comparable. dirk >>> kg by far in that department.
    Why do you draw the line at 23 ppg? That's arbitrary as , tbh.

    Dirk's career ppg is 20.7 - Garnetts is 17.8 and the difference is actually shorter in prime years (which was literally what I said) because KG past prime years were a lot worse than Dirk's past prime years in terms of scoring.

    Since we are talking who the better player was, let's just look at the stats that help us indicate that:

    Garnett: PER: 22.7 - WS/48 .182 - BPM: 5.6 - VORP: 96.9
    Dirk PER: 22.4 - WS/48 . 193 - BPM: 4.5 - VORP: 84.8

    For all intents and purposes, KG was the better player, tbh.
    Last edited by DAF86; 06-22-2020 at 06:09 PM.

  18. #68
    Because I choose to. Neo.'s Avatar
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    Garnett's lead over the second best Celtic in '08: +.058 WS / + 1.4 OBPM / + 2.1 DBPM / +3.6 BPM

    For comparisson's sake, here are other "clear alphas" numbers in years they won:

    Kobe in '09: -.019 (yeah, that's negative. Gasol had a better WS/48 than Kobe) / + 1.6 OBPM / - 0.2 DBPM / +1.4 BPM

    Duncan in '05: +.005 WS / - 0.7 OBPM / 0.0 DBPM / 0.7 BPM

    Lebron in '12: +.071 WS / + 2.2 OBPM / 0.8 DBPM / 3.0 BPM

    And last, but not least, Dirk in '11: -.005 (would you look at this? Dirk's historic run has actually another player with the better WS/48 ) / + 2.8 OBPM / -1.8 DBPM / + 2.3 BPM

    So, as you can see. If Garnett wasn't clearly and "by far" the best Celtic player in '08, then neither of these other guys were. Would you agree with the statement that Dirk wasn't the Mavs' best player in '11 "by far"?



    Why do you draw the line at 23 ppg? That's arbitrary as , tbh.

    Dirk's career ppg is 20.7 - Garnetts is 17.8 and the difference is actually shorter in prime years (which was literally what I said) because KG past prime years were a lot worse than Dirk's past prime years in terms of scoring.

    Since we are talking who the better player was, let's just look at the stats that help us indicate that:

    Garnett: PER: 22.7 - WS/48 .182 - BPM: 5.6 - VORP: 96.9
    Dirk PER: 22.4 - WS/48 . 193 - BPM: 4.5 - VORP: 84.8

    For all intents and purposes, KG was the better player, tbh.
    at all this picking and choosing of stats, particularly ones that are notorious for favoring big men in the post over mid-range and perimeter play

    lets throw it all out the window with this one simple stat

    15-16 spurs (67 wins)

    your hero kawhi had a ws/48 of .277
    boban had a ws/48 of .325

    boban was by far the best basketball player in the NBA apparently

    as for dirk in 2011, the regular season wasnt the historic part of that run, it was the playoffs, which he still led the team in ws/48, BPM and VORP

    however whats interesting is mahinmi was right behind him in ws/48 by .001, while having a bpm of -8.4. yes, i believe that advanced stats in some cases can help tell a story of value that normal stats dont show, but they can also be equally flawed and inconsistent as well. and they still dont tell the story of a players actual skillset, which when it comes to scoring, dirk >>> kg and only a moron like yourself would try to argue

    as for the 23ppg, that was KGs second best scoring season. so basically dirk had 9 seasons of scoring averages that were equal or greater than KGs 2nd best. so no, kg in his prime absolutely did not "put up the same scoring numbers" as dirk as you claimed

  19. #69
    Veteran KobesAchilles's Avatar
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    Garnett's lead over the second best Celtic in '08: +.058 WS / + 1.4 OBPM / + 2.1 DBPM / +3.6 BPM

    For comparisson's sake, here are other "clear alphas" numbers in years they won:

    Kobe in '09: -.019 (yeah, that's negative. Gasol had a better WS/48 than Kobe) / + 1.6 OBPM / - 0.2 DBPM / +1.4 BPM

    Duncan in '05: +.005 WS / - 0.7 OBPM / 0.0 DBPM / 0.7 BPM

    Lebron in '12: +.071 WS / + 2.2 OBPM / 0.8 DBPM / 3.0 BPM

    And last, but not least, Dirk in '11: -.005 (would you look at this? Dirk's historic run has actually another player with the better WS/48 ) / + 2.8 OBPM / -1.8 DBPM / + 2.3 BPM

    So, as you can see. If Garnett wasn't clearly and "by far" the best Celtic player in '08, then neither of these other guys were. Would you agree with the statement that Dirk wasn't the Mavs' best player in '11 "by far"?



    Why do you draw the line at 23 ppg? That's arbitrary as , tbh.

    Dirk's career ppg is 20.7 - Garnetts is 17.8 and the difference is actually shorter in prime years (which was literally what I said) because KG past prime years were a lot worse than Dirk's past prime years in terms of scoring.

    Since we are talking who the better player was, let's just look at the stats that help us indicate that:

    Garnett: PER: 22.7 - WS/48 .182 - BPM: 5.6 - VORP: 96.9
    Dirk PER: 22.4 - WS/48 . 193 - BPM: 4.5 - VORP: 84.8

    For all intents and purposes, KG was the better player, tbh.
    And who did Bos go to in the clutch? Bc it certainly wasn’t Garnett. They went to Pierce or Allen. Garnett was an afterthought in the crunch which basically sums up his career

  20. #70
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    I always felt like KGs defense was overrated. Minn was never a great defensive team and his “great” individual defense led to no team success.
    His defensive skills weren't utilized in Minn. like in Boston. The 08 Celts had maybe the best defense in this century with KG anchoring it.

  21. #71
    Veteran KobesAchilles's Avatar
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    His defensive skills weren't utilized in Minn. like in Boston. The 08 Celts had maybe the best defense in this century with KG anchoring it.
    Spurs had several defensive teams better than the Celtics. Both 04 and 05 and arguably 06 as well. Plus the 04 Pistons were a much better defensive team. Celtics would be 3rd at best of the century but more realistically closer to the 5th best

  22. #72
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    His defensive skills weren't utilized in Minn. like in Boston. The 08 Celts had maybe the best defense in this century with KG anchoring it.
    I like that 2008 Celtic team. But if they were so great why were they getting pushed to the brink by the hawks

  23. #73
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    I like that 2008 Celtic team. But if they were so great why were they getting pushed to the brink by the hawks
    Hawks did better than Liftetime Achievement Award Kobe's Lakers did against the 08 Celtics.

  24. #74
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    Spurs had several defensive teams better than the Celtics. Both 04 and 05 and arguably 06 as well. Plus the 04 Pistons were a much better defensive team. Celtics would be 3rd at best of the century but more realistically closer to the 5th best
    03/04 Spurs D-Rating: 94.79
    03/04 Pistons D-Rating: 96.48
    04/05 Spurs D-Rating: 99.59
    07/08 Celtics D-Rating: 99.75
    05/06 Spurs D-Rating: 100.32

    You have a case. Of course, such ratings are a barometer, but not fully conclusive.
    There are other Spurs teams in the convo. There are other Celtics teams in the discussion
    The common denominators are Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett though.
    The 15-16 Spurs are in the discussion; and with that team TD's defense had evolved to look more like KG's expansive defense.

  25. #75
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    Top Fifty

    1. Larry Bird
    2. Tim Duncan
    3. Lou Alcindor
    4. Bill Russell
    5. Len Bias
    6. John Stockton
    7. Wilt Chamberlain
    8. Scottie Pippen
    9. Pete Maravich
    10. Moses Malone
    11. Oscar Robertson
    12. Julius Erving
    13. Kevin McHale
    14. Manu Ginobili
    15. Hakeem Olajuwon
    16. Kawhi Leonard
    17. Karl Malone
    18. David Robinson
    19. Chris Webber
    20. James Worthy
    21. Shaquille O'Neal
    22. Drazen Petrovic
    23. Isiah Thomas
    24. Kevin Garnett
    25. Michael Jordan
    26. Paul Pierce
    27. John Havlicek
    28. Lebron James
    29. Reggie Lewis
    30. Bill Walton
    31. Robert Parish
    32. Dirk Nowitzki
    33. Pau Gasol
    34. Charles Barkley
    35. Steve Nash
    36. Dominique Wilkins
    47. Ralph Sampson
    38. Peja Stojakovic
    39. Grant Hill
    40. Ray Allen
    41. Clyde Drexler
    42. Earvin Johnson
    43. Vlade Divac
    44. Kevin Durant
    45. Alex English
    46. Tracy McGrady
    47. Kobe Bryant
    48. Toni Kukoc
    49. Bruce Bowen
    50. Roy Tarpley
    50. Rajon Rondo
    50. Patrick Ewing
    50. Tony Parker
    50. Rick Barry
    50. Jason Kidd
    50. Dennis Johnson
    50. Bill Laimbeer
    50. Adrian Dantley
    50. Bernard King
    50. Chris Mullin
    50. Shawn Marion
    50. Jerry West
    lefty

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