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  1. #101
    Because I choose to. Neo.'s Avatar
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    Garnett has a career average of 18.2 ppg and 10.7 rpg in the playoffs.

    For comparisson's sake: Duncan, a similar style of player and one who was never acussed of not being clutch or not showing up for the playoffs, has a career average of 19 ppg and 10.8 rpg.

    Garnett did just fine, individually, in the playoffs. He just never played in a good enough team so he lost more often than not, therefore folks started this choker narrative. Kinda like Lebron in Cleveland. The same fame Dirk had prior to 2011.
    comparing timmy and kgs offensive skillset through ppg and rpg

    yes, garnett did just fine for his level of ability. no one questioned that. and i personally dont agree with those who consider him a choker. why would i consider him a choker when hes not a truly great scorer to begin with?

    kg on his own is an all-time great basketball player, with a great all-around game. the problem here is when you want to compare him to someone who's career accomplishments were more impressive, was a superior scorer, was superior in the clutch, was a superior leader, and has the results to back it all up.

  2. #102
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Nothing like them. At BEST you can say Kevin made it out of the 1st round twice as the man and 2008 I could argue he wasn't the man and Pierce was. Both Lebron and Dirk made it out of the 1st round multiple times as the man. Lebron also never missed the playoffs in his prime like Kevin did. And Dirk I think missed it in 2013 once when he was still kinda relevant but not really in his peak. You can only compare it really to Tmac.

    Duncan played nothing like Garnett which is how I know you never saw the Wolves play. Duncan was bigger and stronger than Kevin and played only in the post. Garnett had some post moves but was easy to move out of the box and liked to settle for jumpers. Kevin had no go to move at the end of games. he had no killer instinct. His stats look good because he is a good player but he isn't a take over player. When he should be scoring he rebounds. When he should be taking over he defers to Wally. Duncan has way more playoff games than Garnett which is the only reason why the stats are close. It's easy to play great for 3 games as you're getting swept by the Mavericks (something he didn't do btw as Kevin was ty in game 2), it's much harder playing great in later rounds and more brutal games. News flash, the compe ion gets harder the farther along you get, which I know Kevin Garnett didn't really know anything about that, so you can't tell me just because he averaged 25 points and 13 rebounds a game in 3 whole games in round one that means he would average that in round 2, CF, and the Finals. It's a ridiculous statement
    Garnett averaged more points in conference semis, conference finals and league finals than in the first round.

    You just keep getting on and back up your stuff with zero evidence

  3. #103
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    comparing timmy and kgs offensive skillset through ppg and rpg

    yes, garnett did just fine for his level of ability. no one questioned that. and i personally dont agree with those who consider him a choker. why would i consider him a choker when hes not a truly great scorer to begin with?
    Where in that post did I mention anything about offensive skillsets? I said "similar style" meaning that both were defensive minded PF's that weren't "scorers" per se. They would get their 20 a game because they were that good, but they were more all around players than just pure scorers ala Dirk.

    kg on his own is an all-time great basketball player, with a great all-around game. the problem here is when you want to compare him to someone who's career accomplishments were more impressive, was a superior scorer, was superior in the clutch, was a superior leader, and has the results to back it all up.
    I'm guessing you mean Duncan here.

  4. #104
    Veteran KobesAchilles's Avatar
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    Your entire argument is based on the idea that Garnett wasn't the go to guy in the clutch to try and sell the narrative that he wasn't clearly the Celtics' best player in 2008, and I'm the one getting on with zero evidence?

    That's rich son. Even the other guys that are on the Dirk > KG side of the discussion agreed that Garnett was the Celtics' best player in 2008. You know who else agrees with this? The MVP voting list of that year that had Garnett at 3rd in the entire ing league.

    Look, you can think Dirk > KG all you want. It's pretty much a wash in my book. But don't come here trying to act like I'm not providing sound evidence while you come up with primary school level arguments like " but he doesn't take the last shot ".
    No my point is that Garnett lost in the first round 7 straight years. Went to the WCF once and missed the playoffs 3 straight years all in his prime. This didnít happen to Dirk. It didnít happen to Tim. It didnít happen to Robinson. It didnít happen to any of his contemporaries that heís compared to. My other point is that ty teammates isnít a good enough excuse for Garnett to have failed so badly as a Timberwolves. Duncan made it to the second round with Antonio Daniels as the starting PG and Robinson averaging 4 points a game. His 2003 team blows away any argument that having ty teammates is a good enough excuse to absolve KGís failure. Dirk made it to the Finals with ty teammates. Dampier was his starting center along with Harris as his PG. Robinson has Del Negro and AJ and made it to the WCF. Blaming KGís teammates as the sole reason for why they failed and why he didnít overcome us asinine. Just means he wasnít as good as his peers that heís placed in company with.

  5. #105
    Veteran KobesAchilles's Avatar
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    Your entire argument is based on the idea that Garnett wasn't the go to guy in the clutch to try and sell the narrative that he wasn't clearly the Celtics' best player in 2008, and I'm the one getting on with zero evidence?

    That's rich son. Even the other guys that are on the Dirk > KG side of the discussion agreed that Garnett was the Celtics' best player in 2008. You know who else agrees with this? The MVP voting list of that year that had Garnett at 3rd in the entire ing league.

    Look, you can think Dirk > KG all you want. It's pretty much a wash in my book. But don't come here trying to act like I'm not providing sound evidence while you come up with primary school level arguments like " but he doesn't take the last shot ".
    Garnett averaged more points in conference semis, conference finals and league finals than in the first round.



    Just bc you say bull doesnít make it true. He averaged 18 ppg in the finals in 08 and 15 ppg in Ď10. He averaged 20 points per game in the first round his 7 straight exits. I mean seriously you should get an award for how wrong a person can be in one argument

    Also in 2008 he averaged 21 points per game in Round 1 vs Atlanta. Which is definitely less than 18 ppg he averaged in the finals and the 19 ppg he averaged in the semis

  6. #106
    6X ST MVP Spurtacular's Avatar
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    Top Fifty

    1. Larry Bird
    2. Tim Duncan
    3. Lou Alcindor
    4. Bill Russell
    5. Len Bias
    6. John Stockton
    7. Wilt Chamberlain
    8. Scottie Pippen
    9. Pete Maravich
    10. Moses Malone
    11. Oscar Robertson
    12. Julius Erving
    13. Kevin McHale
    14. Manu Ginobili
    15. Hakeem Olajuwon
    16. Kawhi Leonard
    17. Karl Malone
    18. David Robinson
    19. Chris Webber
    20. James Worthy
    21. Shaquille O'Neal
    22. Drazen Petrovic
    23. Isiah Thomas
    24. Kevin Garnett
    25. Michael Jordan
    26. Paul Pierce
    27. John Havlicek
    28. Lebron James
    29. Reggie Lewis
    30. Bill Walton
    31. Robert Parish
    32. Dirk Nowitzki
    33. Pau Gasol
    34. Charles Barkley
    35. Steve Nash
    36. Dominique Wilkins
    47. Ralph Sampson
    38. Peja Stojakovic
    39. Grant Hill
    40. Ray Allen
    41. Clyde Drexler
    42. Earvin Johnson
    43. Vlade Divac
    44. Kevin Durant
    45. Alex English
    46. Tracy McGrady
    47. Kobe Bryant
    48. Toni Kukoc
    49. Bruce Bowen
    50. Roy Tarpley
    50. Rajon Rondo
    50. Patrick Ewing
    50. Tony Parker
    50. Rick Barry
    50. Jason Kidd
    50. Dennis Johnson
    50. Bill Laimbeer
    50. Adrian Dantley
    50. Bernard King
    50. Chris Mullin
    50. Shawn Marion
    50. Jerry West
    Okay, my bad for leaving Danny Ainge off the list.
    Damn, this dude did one year of minor league baseball and three years of major league baseball all while playing college basketball for four years!

    https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb...y-ainge-1.html
    https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...ingeda01.shtml
    https://www.baseball-reference.com/r...d=ainge-001dan


  7. #107
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    baseball is not a sport tbh

  8. #108
    6X ST MVP Spurtacular's Avatar
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    baseball is not a sport tbh
    Meh.

    Either way Danny obviously sacrificed numbers and all star selections for the betterment of the team.
    Even if he did shoot the C's out of the 85 Finals.

  9. #109
    Because I choose to. Neo.'s Avatar
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    Where in that post did I mention anything about offensive skillsets? I said "similar style" meaning that both were defensive minded PF's that weren't "scorers" per se. They would get their 20 a game because they were that good, but they were more all around players than just pure scorers ala Dirk.
    you were comparing their ability to be clutch and show up for the playoffs. comparable numbers don't equate to a comparable presence. timmy and dirk presences >>> kgs presence



    I'm guessing you mean Duncan here.
    so clever

  10. #110
    Because I choose to. Neo.'s Avatar
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    Just bc you say bull doesn’t make it true. He averaged 18 ppg in the finals in 08 and 15 ppg in ‘10. He averaged 20 points per game in the first round his 7 straight exits. I mean seriously you should get an award for how wrong a person can be in one argument

    Also in 2008 he averaged 21 points per game in Round 1 vs Atlanta. Which is definitely less than 18 ppg he averaged in the finals and the 19 ppg he averaged in the semis
    @ him just making up stuff to fit his agenda

    like if he just prefers kg personally, that's one thing

    but for him to state it as a fact that kg>dirk and then to claim he has proof but actually doesn't and instead resorts to making up lies?

  11. #111

  12. #112
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Just bc you say bull doesn’t make it true. He averaged 18 ppg in the finals in 08 and 15 ppg in ‘10. He averaged 20 points per game in the first round his 7 straight exits. I mean seriously you should get an award for how wrong a person can be in one argument

    Also in 2008 he averaged 21 points per game in Round 1 vs Atlanta. Which is definitely less than 18 ppg he averaged in the finals and the 19 ppg he averaged in the semis
    Dude, Garnett averages 18.2 ppg in the playoffs for his career. On the conference semis, conference finals and NBA finals he averages 18.6 ppg combined. You do the remaining math.

  13. #113
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    you were comparing their ability to be clutch and show up for the playoffs. comparable numbers don't equate to a comparable presence. timmy and dirk presences >>> kgs presence
    Why? Because they had better teams and won more often? Sports is a world determined by cir stances and luck. I compared Garnett's numbers to Duncan's just to prove that, individually, Garnett did just as good as anyone. What's the difference? Team success. And, sorry to break it to you, but that's pretty much on team talent. There's only so much an individual can do.

    Dumb, mind numbing narratives like calling a player a choker just because his team doesn't win, despite him doing good individually, should be over by 2020.

    It's funny how untill 2010 Dirk was a soft jump shooting choker, but as soon as he got a great team around him he suddenly wasn't a choker anymore. Maybe he was never a choker and just didn't have good enough teams to go all the way.

    Same with Garnett, years of losing early in the playoffs. As soon as he got some help around him, he's suddenly good enough to be the leading man on a championship team. Damn, Garnett must have done some serious soul searching and jedi level training in the 2007 offseason to go from 1st round fodder to championship leader, tbh.

    so clever
    With the re ed I read on this thread I thought you might be referring to Dirk for a minutes.
    Last edited by DAF86; 06-24-2020 at 05:33 AM.

  14. #114
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    @ him just making up stuff to fit his agenda

    like if he just prefers kg personally, that's one thing

    but for him to state it as a fact that kg>dirk and then to claim he has proof but actually doesn't and instead resorts to making up lies?
    Dude, Garnett averagd 18.2 ppg in the playoffs for his career. On the conference semis, conference finals and NBA finals he averaged 18.6 ppg combined. You do the remaining math.
    Son, you should have stayed off his wagon as soon as you started reading arbitray qualifiers like "for his first 7 seasons" and "round 1 vs Atlanta".
    Last edited by DAF86; 06-24-2020 at 05:34 AM.

  15. #115
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Hey, KobesAchilles and Neo, you wanted "evidence", "stats" and "analysis"? Here you have the mother of all "evidences", "stats" and "analysis". It has Garnett a full 10 positions higher than Dirk. You can sign in and tell that dude how he just keeps getting on and backs up his stuff with zero evidence, and how KG wasn't really that good because he wasn't "clutch", tbh.

    The premise and justification of the list:

    What This List Is Not
    This list will not make traditional ďargumentsĒ for players. I wonít attempt to balance Kobeís championships without Shaq, nor do I care about accolades like All-Star teams or the number of Hall of Fame teammates someone played with. I also donít care how many rings a player won; the very thing Iím trying to tease out is who provided the most lift. Sometimes that lift is good enough to win, sometimes itís not.

    There are no time machines either ó itís not about how players would do today if transported into the past or future. Itís about the impact each had in his own time over the course of a career.

    What This List Is
    This list also goes far beyond the box score ó indeed, the box score is merely a reference for quantifying tendencies ó so if youíre used to citing points per game and Win Shares, this will be a bit different.

    Instead, this is a career-value, or CORP list; it ranks the players who have provided the largest increase in the odds of a team winning championships over the course of their careers. This means that having great Finals moments or winning the hearts of fans with innovative passes is irrelevant. You can make a great list with those criteria, but thatís not what this exercise is intended to be.

    This list is really about evaluating players based on ďgoodness,Ē not merely situational value.
    https://backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the...n-nba-history/

    So, basically, it just takes bias and cir stances out of the way and just focuses on a player's actual impact on a basketball court. You can agree or not, but it doesn't get much more clinical than that, tbh.

    Quite an interesting site, tbh. Weird that I didn't heard about it 'till now.
    Last edited by DAF86; 06-24-2020 at 06:14 AM.

  16. #116
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    And would you believe it? Looking around on that page I saw this excerpt about Duncan and Garnett in the clutch:

    A criticism often volleyed toward Kevin Garnett is his reluctance to take over games down the stretch. Of course, most bigs are hampered by this. And, with regards to his chief rival, Tim Duncan, KGís clutch performance is quite similar. Heís nearly identical with TD over the last 8+ seasons, and outperformed him in his 3-year peak. Garnett actually shot it 21% more in his three-year peak (18.0 FGAís per 36, 618 minute sample) than Duncan did in his (14.9 FGAís per 36, 473 minute sample).

    Still, in this generation it seems no big is going to rival a perimeter player in late-game performance.
    https://elgee35.wordpress.com/tag/manu-ginobili/

    But I'm sure the metrics experts here will find a way to explain why these analyses are and their eye tests are a better parameter.

  17. #117
    Because I choose to. Neo.'s Avatar
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    yes a GOAT list that places kg ahead of magic and bird, Russell ahead of Shaq, Hakeem, timmy and wilt, and LeBron ahead of Mike but behind Kareem has absolutely no flaws whatsoever and is the perfect parameter of greatness

    You continue to apply narratives to me that I don't even claim or believe in. I never said kg is a choker, and I think it's a heavily overused label for many players. I simply said kg doesn't have the same level of scoring skills that guys like Dirk and Timmy have. and it shows come playoff time when you have to compete against the best defenses giving full effort every night
    a big difference than regular seasons when you are facing teams that either completely suck defensively, don't care as much bc it's regular season, or both.

    I fully agree that to an extent you can't always blame lack of team success on a single player, there's only so much he can do. but kg also had some pretty good teams that underachieved as well. and there were times that as the leader and best player on the team, his shortcomings at scoring were part of the reason his teams couldn't get over the hump. defenses simply didn't fear him the way they feared guys like dirk and timmy. I don't really consider it a fault, as much as it simply is something he wasn't capable of doing. ranking him lower than dirk isn't due to faults of kg, as opposed to simply having less capability of affecting the game the way dirk did. dirk literally transformed basketball. kg was basically a lesser version of hakeem.

    truth is, kg was generally not on the level of a postseason performer that dirk was.

    and it's funny how you want to say that the choker label is unfair to use (despite me never once using that label for kg), then conveniently want to apply it to dirk every chance you get

    oh and then you want to criticize people for using what you referred to as the "eye test" but you conveniently want to use the eye test to claim that kg had no good teammates ever in minny, while dirk always was just surrounded by good talent. and then you want to conveniently ignore that kg won a championship with two hof teammates in their primes, while dirk won with a team that had no fellow allstars, nor a single player in the prime of their careers except maybe tyson.

    i really couldn't care less if you simply prefer kg (I mean you consider manu one tier below MJ, LeBron and Timmy for goodness sake) I just don't get your inconsistent arguments. you keep jumping all over the place, making stuff up, and picking and choosing.
    Last edited by Neo.; 06-24-2020 at 10:08 AM.

  18. #118
    Veteran KobesAchilles's Avatar
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    Son, you should have stayed off his wagon as soon as you started reading arbitray qualifiers like "for his first 7 seasons" and "round 1 vs Atlanta".
    I mean those are his prime years. I was only counting his prime years and specifically his first round playoff numbers to his Finals numbers. You do realize that playoff numbers include his Nets years which I didn’t count bc then I would just say hey he averaged 6 points in the playoffs one season. Lol dirk never did. And then the response would be yeah when he’s out of his prime and on the Nets. So be careful if you want those numbers included.

    Also and here’s a shocker, his playoff career numbers include his lower Finals numbers which lowers his playoff ppg average. And where THE did you see him average 18.6 points a game in the finals when he averaged less than that in 2008 and 15 ppg in 2010? 18+15=33. 33/2 is 16.5 ppg in the Finals. Like I said earlier just bc you say bull doesn’t make it true. Or do you not count his 2010 Finals for some reason but do include his Nets years?

  19. #119
    Because I choose to. Neo.'s Avatar
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    I mean those are his prime years. I was only counting his prime years and specifically his first round playoff numbers to his Finals numbers. You do realize that playoff numbers include his Nets years which I didn’t count bc then I would just say hey he averaged 6 points in the playoffs one season. Lol dirk never did. And then the response would be yeah when he’s out of his prime and on the Nets. So be careful if you want those numbers included.

    Also and here’s a shocker, his playoff career numbers include his lower Finals numbers which lowers his playoff ppg average. And where THE did you see him average 18.6 points a game in the finals when he averaged less than that in 2008 and 15 ppg in 2010? 18+15=33. 33/2 is 16.5 ppg in the Finals. Like I said earlier just bc you say bull doesn’t make it true. Or do you not count his 2010 Finals for some reason but do include his Nets years?
    to add to it, including his decrepit brooklyn season, it appears that his averages in the 2nd 3rd and 4th rounds combined actually are 17.9, not 18.6 as he claims

    so since his career playoff average is 18.2, and his averages in rounds 2/3/4 are 17.9, that must mean his first round average is... well we can let him "do the remaining math"

    at this guy literally making stuff up

  20. #120
    It's ok to be a man Dirks_Finale's Avatar
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    Why? Because they had better teams and won more often? Sports is a world determined by cir stances and luck. I compared Garnett's numbers to Duncan's just to prove that, individually, Garnett did just as good as anyone. What's the difference? Team success. And, sorry to break it to you, but that's pretty much on team talent. There's only so much an individual can do.

    Dumb, mind numbing narratives like calling a player a choker just because his team doesn't win, despite him doing good individually, should be over by 2020.

    It's funny how untill 2010 Dirk was a soft jump shooting choker, but as soon as he got a great team around him he suddenly wasn't a choker anymore. Maybe he was never a choker and just didn't have good enough teams to go all the way.

    Same with Garnett, years of losing early in the playoffs. As soon as he got some help around him, he's suddenly good enough to be the leading man on a championship team. Damn, Garnett must have done some serious soul searching and jedi level training in the 2007 offseason to go from 1st round fodder to championship leader, tbh.
    .
    Dirk was 25/10, career, in the postseason. Karl Malone and Hakeem are the only other guys I know of to do that for the duration of a career. He always elevated his level of play in the postseason...lone exception being 07 when Nellie bombed on him But I did not see that from KG in the playoffs. I saw him being passive in 4th quarters and giving up the rock to Trenton Hassell and Wally

    And I love KG...but that 08 C's team is one of the best I have seen. Towering over the 2011 Mavs in terms of talent. Just about anybody will look good playing next to Allen/Pierce/impactful Rondo and solid role players like Posey and Brown.
    Last edited by Dirks_Finale; 06-24-2020 at 03:32 PM.

  21. #121
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    The funny thing about Garnett-Nowitzki is this wasn't even considered a serious debate until they were past their primes and then all of a sudden people retroactively leaned Nowitzki.

    Blame recency bias and the increasing tendency to apply modern basketball ideology ("closer") to yesteryear.

    Sure, Garnett probably couldn't have pulled an '11 Nowitzki, but let's not make him out to be Mutombo, Wallace, Gobert, etc. either. There's a big difference between having a style suited to being an offensive hub for a championship caliber team and that and he veered far closer to the former than the latter.


    Why? Because they had better teams and won more often? Sports is a world determined by cir stances and luck. I compared Garnett's numbers to Duncan's just to prove that, individually, Garnett did just as good as anyone. What's the difference? Team success. And, sorry to break it to you, but that's pretty much on team talent. There's only so much an individual can do.

    Dumb, mind numbing narratives like calling a player a choker just because his team doesn't win, despite him doing good individually, should be over by 2020.

    It's funny how untill 2010 Dirk was a soft jump shooting choker, but as soon as he got a great team around him he suddenly wasn't a choker anymore. Maybe he was never a choker and just didn't have good enough teams to go all the way.

    Same with Garnett, years of losing early in the playoffs. As soon as he got some help around him, he's suddenly good enough to be the leading man on a championship team. Damn, Garnett must have done some serious soul searching and jedi level training in the 2007 offseason to go from 1st round fodder to championship leader, tbh.



    With the re ed I read on this thread I thought you might be referring to Dirk for a minutes.
    I agree with the sentiment, but despite Garnett's slightly superior regular season catch all metrics, what set Duncan apart was his low post game made him a championship caliber offensive hub, while Garnett's was always more suited to being complimentary at that level.

    They were essentially Robinson-Olajuwon II.

  22. #122
    Because I choose to. Neo.'s Avatar
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    The funny thing about Garnett-Nowitzki is this wasn't even considered a serious debate until they were past their primes and then all of a sudden people retroactively leaned Nowitzki.

    Blame recency bias and the increasing tendency to apply modern basketball ideology ("closer") to yesteryear.

    Sure, Garnett probably couldn't have pulled an '11 Nowitzki, but let's not make him out to be Mutombo, Wallace, Gobert, etc. either. There's a big difference between having a style suited to being an offensive hub for a championship caliber team and that and he veered far closer to the former than the latter.
    im pretty sure not one person here remotely suggested that whatsoever

  23. #123
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    im pretty sure not one person here remotely suggested that whatsoever
    The point is, if the argument for Nowitzki is he did the most important thing better, realize he didn't do it better by enough to supersede the massive gap in their all around games.

  24. #124
    Because I choose to. Neo.'s Avatar
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    The point is, if the argument for Nowitzki is he did the most important thing better, realize he didn't do it better by enough to supersede the massive gap in their all around games.
    in your opinion perhaps

    but he did something kg never did - put a team on his back and carry them to a championship. so perhaps he did do it better more than enough to supersede the gap in their all around games

    its hard to argue against actual results

  25. #125
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    in your opinion perhaps

    but he did something kg never did - put a team on his back and carry them to a championship. so perhaps he did do it better more than enough to supersede the gap in their all around games

    its hard to argue against actual results
    You're making the common mistake people make in debates, which is acting as if the cir stances were the same.

    When was Garnett ever in position to do what Nowitzki did in '11? '04 was the closest, but Cassell, their second best player, essentially missed the back half the WCF.

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