I think the reason they were pushed to the brink is because they were still learning how to win. 1st yr together and KG was never known as clutch performer/closer.
KG had a strong but not Dirk quality long jumper and his other offensive move was the tip in. I'm being harsh. Once KG stopped driving to the basket with a jump stop, he was no longer a #1 on le team. Garnet developed into hall of fame defender so I tip hat
3 vs 1, so I'll take my friend's DAF86 side.
Why when we use term "clutch" we include only scoring into equation? Winning important rebounds isn't clutch? Pass out of double-team to wide-open teammate who than makes extra pass to another guy (minus assist in boxscore for real playmaker) who sinks open jumper or scores easy layup isn't clutch? Is latter worse than chucking contested low-percantage jumper?
My point is, we can't give too much weight to scoring ability. One player scores 20 points and gives up 22, another scores 15 but allowes only 10. Who is more valuable?
Iirc (if I wrong I'm sorry) in 2011 run and during his career Dirk was often subbed out of games in clutch situations when Mavs needed crucial defensive stops. Why don't we critisize him for this? He literally had zero value at that moments.
If one player was better by a solid margin during first 43 minutes and another was only better for 5 minutes (and it questionable) how can we rank second player higher? I know how (meaning I know what my opponents in this debate'll tell me) and I disagree with it. The answer is narratives and winning bias.
Basketball is much much bigger than boxscore. In fact pre-assists can be more important than assists. Great at the rim shot contests without blocks don't get mentioned in boxscore and etc.
KG had elite passing, elite horizontal defensive game, elite awareness on both ends of the court. And you can see his extremely high value and impact in his elite box and non-box advanced stats where he absolutely destroys Dirk. He doesn't get called "King of all box and non-box" metrics for nothing.
His minor team success can be explained by the fact that he played in historically bad teams. Kobe at least had Lamar Odom. In fact the only time he had ok help in Minnesota he was close to taking down 3-peat Lakers team. And even than Sam Cassel possibly had series-altering injury.
During his Celtics days he won le when he finally had great team around in 2008 and then KG had career-altering injury in 2009. He was never the same after that. He was the guy who was bullying Pau Gasol in 2008 and became the guy who was bullied by Pau Gasol in 2010. Pure speculation from my part but if not for that injury Celtics would at least 3-peated and who knows how much more could they win after that. Big 3 was getting older but Rondo was entering his prime. Debatable, controversial but possible. Anyway bad luck is a bad luck. Magic was smart to avoid playing for Bulls. If he played for them who knows how his legacy would looked like today. KG and Magic are prime examples of how luck can change the way you're getting perceived by fans and media.
Backpick's GOAT aka Thinking Basketball aka Ben Taylor has made anic work and imho it's hands-down the best analysis on player's rankings I've ever read. It measures only pure player impact, not narratives and team success. And KG ranked higher than Magic because he was better more impacful player with better longevity. It's controversial for most fans but exactly what I see on tape (KG was just more impactful 2-way player).
This video perfectly encapsuletes what I mean by terms like "winning bias", "narratives", "non-boxscore impact".
Instead of trashing his list for no reason, I highly recommend to look througly Mr Taylor's work. It's deserves respect.
Also about KG defenive impact. Don't forget what happened in Boston under Thibodeau
DAF86 also gave Tim's and KG's numbers in clutch time. Nothing to add here.
In summary, no way I'm trying to tell that I'm better at ranking players. In fact, it quite possible that it's me who is mistaken. But it's my point of view at this moment.
It's shame that smart posters don't exposed to a 5-star restaurant-level basketball analysis like Backpicks, but instead to fast food level like First Take and Undisputed.
Webber pre knee injury
Looking back, outside of '04 Cassell, only Brandon was truly an All-Star caliber player among them, yet never made it as a Timberwolf.
Terry has a strong argument for being better than the rest (at least while they were Timberwolves).
The Mavericks perennially had a bloated payroll, filled with players who previously pilled up counting stats on mediocre-bad teams.
The Celtics matched up well with the Magic, I believe dominated them head to head and beat them the next season, when the former were slightly past their collective prime.
well your math sucks because he clearly played the following games:
wcs 04 vs sac - 7 games 167 points
wcf 04 vs lakers - 6 games 142 points
ecs 08 vs cle - 7 games 137 points
ecf 08 vs det - 6 games 137 points
fin 08 vs lakers - 6 games 109 points
ecs 10 vs cle - 6 games 113 points
ecf 10 vs orl - 6 games 62 points
fin 10 vs lakers - 7 games 107 points
ecs 11 vs mia - 5 games 72 points
ecs 12 vs phi - 7 games 138 points
ecf 12 vs mia - 7 games 134 points
ecs 14 vs mia - 5 games 24 points
7+6+7+6+6+6+6+7+5+7+7+5= 75 games
167+142+137+137+109+113+62+107+72+138+134+24= 1342 points
1342/75= 17.89 ppg
it really wasnt that difficult. looks like you left out 2012 and 2014. figures, anything to fit your narrative.
i never said anything about not respecting the work. you are taking this way too personally for some reason. all of it. it literally began as something much smaller than this, and youve turned it into a whine-fest of "oh why doesnt everyone agree with my non-biased fact based opinions" and claiming i view kg as a choker when i never once said he was a choker, and repeatedly have said i dont believe he was a choker. my main claim this whole time is that he had a limited scoring skillset compared to other elite PFs in his time, such as dirk and tim.
my original issue was him being "by far" the best player on the 08 celtics. i agreed he was the best player on the team. i dont personally feel he was "by far", and plenty of the advanced stats you like to use so much would agree.
the other issue was that in his prime he put up the same scoring numbers as dirk. he absolutely did not. stats proved that pretty easily.
i also pointed out the fact that you gave false stats and dont seem to comprehend simple addition and division.
the rest of this is just pointless back and forth that neither one of us are going to change our minds on and i dont care to waste time on anymore. you prefer kg. i prefer dirk. kg was a better all around player, while dirk was a more unguardable scorer. they had many comparable accolades. kg had a nice playoff run where his team won a championship. dirk had one of the most impressive playoff runs in nba history and won a championship. these are all the facts. end of story.
oh, and you think that manu is only one tier below michael jordan in terms of greatest players ever
tbh very underappreciated player
if he didnt get hurt they most likely win the championship in 02-03
or you know
2002*
KG in 22 seasons- 191.4 Win shares.
Dirk in 21 seasons- 206.3 Win shares.
One player was more impactful than the other. That''s all I have ever claimed. Love KG but Dirk has a slight edge on him.
2002 WCF officiating was nearly as bad as 2006 NBA Finals
Terry had a few great games in the 2011 Finals and then suddenly the history books were re-written on him
JET was a bonehead. Constantly out of place and missing defensive assignments. Turnovers at the worst possible times. Streaky shooter ,so if he's cold that means Dirk gets no help and needs to drop 40 for them to have any shot at winning. Oh, and that big mouth of his also got us into trouble too often.
Wally was steady in his prime. Not somebody KG should be deferring to in the 4th like he always did, but could give you 15-20 on a consistent basis with solid percentages. They were actually better than JET's, tbh.
it is interesting how some people want to use advanced stats to prove kg > dirk, but want to dismiss the ones that clearly favor dirk and strongly suggest that his offensive advantages over kg noticeably outweighs kgs advantages on defense, as many people feel and see without even needing to look at advanced stats
tbh jet was beyond amazing in the 05 and 06 playoffs. losing the finals in 06 got in his head and he pretty much was playoff-re ed until 2011 playoffs. literally every series they lost until 2011, could have been won if jet wasnt so horrible lolTerry had a few great games in the 2011 Finals and then suddenly the history books were re-written on him
JET was a bonehead. Constantly out of place and missing defensive assignments. Turnovers at the worst possible times. Streaky shooter ,so if he's cold that means Dirk gets no help and needs to drop 40 for them to have any shot at winning. Oh, and that big mouth of his also got us into trouble too often.
Wally was steady in his prime. Not somebody KG should be deferring to in the 4th like he always did, but could give you 15-20 on a consistent basis with solid percentages. They were actually better than JET's, tbh.
Yeah, forgot about that run. He was nice that year.
In which way am I taking it too personal?well your math sucks because he clearly played the following games:
wcs 04 vs sac - 7 games 167 points
wcf 04 vs lakers - 6 games 142 points
ecs 08 vs cle - 7 games 137 points
ecf 08 vs det - 6 games 137 points
fin 08 vs lakers - 6 games 109 points
ecs 10 vs cle - 6 games 113 points
ecf 10 vs orl - 6 games 62 points
fin 10 vs lakers - 7 games 107 points
ecs 11 vs mia - 5 games 72 points
ecs 12 vs phi - 7 games 138 points
ecf 12 vs mia - 7 games 134 points
ecs 14 vs mia - 5 games 24 points
7+6+7+6+6+6+6+7+5+7+7+5= 75 games
167+142+137+137+109+113+62+107+72+138+134+24= 1342 points
1342/75= 17.89 ppg
it really wasnt that difficult. looks like you left out 2012 and 2014. figures, anything to fit your narrative.
i never said anything about not respecting the work. you are taking this way too personally for some reason. all of it. it literally began as something much smaller than this, and youve turned it into a whine-fest of "oh why doesnt everyone agree with my non-biased fact based opinions" and claiming i view kg as a choker when i never once said he was a choker, and repeatedly have said i dont believe he was a choker. my main claim this whole time is that he had a limited scoring skillset compared to other elite PFs in his time, such as dirk and tim.
my original issue was him being "by far" the best player on the 08 celtics. i agreed he was the best player on the team. i dont personally feel he was "by far", and plenty of the advanced stats you like to use so much would agree.
the other issue was that in his prime he put up the same scoring numbers as dirk. he absolutely did not. stats proved that pretty easily.
i also pointed out the fact that you gave false stats and dont seem to comprehend simple addition and division.
the rest of this is just pointless back and forth that neither one of us are going to change our minds on and i dont care to waste time on anymore. you prefer kg. i prefer dirk. kg was a better all around player, while dirk was a more unguardable scorer. they had many comparable accolades. kg had a nice playoff run where his team won a championship. dirk had one of the most impressive playoff runs in nba history and won a championship. these are all the facts. end of story.
oh, and you think that manu is only one tier below michael jordan in terms of greatest players ever
I'm just arguing ball on a sports message board, just like you. Explain how am I taking it more personal than you or any other guy in here?Besides I'm arguing in favour of a player that I couldn't care less about. You, on the other hand, I bet, are a Mavs fan.
whining about people not respecting statisticians, whining im calling kg a choker when i didnt, and resorting to making up false or incomplete stats to fit your narrativeIn which way am I taking it too personal?
I'm just arguing ball on a sports message board, just like you. Explain how am I taking it more personal than you or any other guy in here?
Where did I whine, tbh?whining about people not respecting statisticians, whining im calling kg a choker when i didnt, and resorting to making up false or incomplete stats to fit your narrative
If you consider, what I'm doing, whining, then I guess you consider you are whining too, tbh.
Judging the list OP created,
Hakeem over Moses but both near the top
1. Dr.J
2. Oscar
3. West
4. Curry (will move up)
Forward. This part is quite difficult.
Barkley vs Malone
Dirk vs Durant
Kobe certainly in this range... but lol @ KG being top 20... and why is a choker like Malone being rewarded? he was basically a product of Stockton...
Sorry, but you can explain away almost any narrative. Harden didn't have any issue scoring tons until pressure time. He didn't switch gears because CP3 was dominant, he deferred. That's what he's accused of.3 vs 1, so I'll take my friend's DAF86 side.
Why when we use term "clutch" we include only scoring into equation? Winning important rebounds isn't clutch? Pass out of double-team to wide-open teammate who than makes extra pass to another guy (minus assist in boxscore for real playmaker) who sinks open jumper or scores easy layup isn't clutch? Is latter worse than chucking contested low-percantage jumper?
My point is, we can't give too much weight to scoring ability. One player scores 20 points and gives up 22, another scores 15 but allowes only 10. Who is more valuable?
Iirc (if I wrong I'm sorry) in 2011 run and during his career Dirk was often subbed out of games in clutch situations when Mavs needed crucial defensive stops. Why don't we critisize him for this? He literally had zero value at that moments.
If one player was better by a solid margin during first 43 minutes and another was only better for 5 minutes (and it questionable) how can we rank second player higher? I know how (meaning I know what my opponents in this debate'll tell me) and I disagree with it. The answer is narratives and winning bias.
Basketball is much much bigger than boxscore. In fact pre-assists can be more important than assists. Great at the rim shot contests without blocks don't get mentioned in boxscore and etc.
KG had elite passing, elite horizontal defensive game, elite awareness on both ends of the court. And you can see his extremely high value and impact in his elite box and non-box advanced stats where he absolutely destroys Dirk. He doesn't get called "King of all box and non-box" metrics for nothing.
His minor team success can be explained by the fact that he played in historically bad teams. Kobe at least had Lamar Odom. In fact the only time he had ok help in Minnesota he was close to taking down 3-peat Lakers team. And even than Sam Cassel possibly had series-altering injury.
During his Celtics days he won le when he finally had great team around in 2008 and then KG had career-altering injury in 2009. He was never the same after that. He was the guy who was bullying Pau Gasol in 2008 and became the guy who was bullied by Pau Gasol in 2010. Pure speculation from my part but if not for that injury Celtics would at least 3-peated and who knows how much more could they win after that. Big 3 was getting older but Rondo was entering his prime. Debatable, controversial but possible. Anyway bad luck is a bad luck. Magic was smart to avoid playing for Bulls. If he played for them who knows how his legacy would looked like today. KG and Magic are prime examples of how luck can change the way you're getting perceived by fans and media.
Backpick's GOAT aka Thinking Basketball aka Ben Taylor has made anic work and imho it's hands-down the best analysis on player's rankings I've ever read. It measures only pure player impact, not narratives and team success. And KG ranked higher than Magic because he was better more impacful player with better longevity. It's controversial for most fans but exactly what I see on tape (KG was just more impactful 2-way player).
This video perfectly encapsuletes what I mean by terms like "winning bias", "narratives", "non-boxscore impact".
Instead of trashing his list for no reason, I highly recommend to look througly Mr Taylor's work. It's deserves respect.
Also about KG defenive impact. Don't forget what happened in Boston under Thibodeau
DAF86 also gave Tim's and KG's numbers in clutch time. Nothing to add here.
In summary, no way I'm trying to tell that I'm better at ranking players. In fact, it quite possible that it's me who is mistaken. But it's my point of view at this moment.
It's shame that smart posters don't exposed to a 5-star restaurant-level basketball analysis like Backpicks, but instead to fast food level like First Take and Undisputed.
Nah, he was better than you think. Go back and look at his catch all advanced metrics. With the rise of them, he'd be more appreciated today, similar to Williams.Terry had a few great games in the 2011 Finals and then suddenly the history books were re-written on him
JET was a bonehead. Constantly out of place and missing defensive assignments. Turnovers at the worst possible times. Streaky shooter ,so if he's cold that means Dirk gets no help and needs to drop 40 for them to have any shot at winning. Oh, and that big mouth of his also got us into trouble too often.
Wally was steady in his prime. Not somebody KG should be deferring to in the 4th like he always did, but could give you 15-20 on a consistent basis with solid percentages. They were actually better than JET's, tbh.
Szczerbiak was nowhere near the same caliber of player.
I don't want to hear this All-Star/awards nonsense. To encapsulate just how cir stantial and arbitrary they are, DeRozan has made 4 All-Star teams, 2 All-NBA (1 2nd team), an Olympic and World Cup team . . . yet his teams have perennially been significantly better with him off the floor.
It's not just offense/initial defense. Garnett was a significantly better passer and rebounder, too.it is interesting how some people want to use advanced stats to prove kg > dirk, but want to dismiss the ones that clearly favor dirk and strongly suggest that his offensive advantages over kg noticeably outweighs kgs advantages on defense, as many people feel and see without even needing to look at advanced stats
The only things Nowitzki had on him was shot creation/range shooting, which he also did well.
Well, win shares is team dependent stat, meaning that player perfoming for 65-win team would always have higher mark over player with exactly the same production but who's perfoming for 50-win team for example. So, no surprise here.
In majority of advanced stats that don't have such limitation like vorp or bpm KG is comfortably ahead.
About putting his team on the back to the le. One player lost in 1-round while avareging 27.0 ppg 15.7 rpg 5.2 apg 1.7 spg 1.7 bpg on 51.4 fg% (53.7 ts%) againts Kobe's and Shaq's Lakers. Another won Finals MVP with 26.0 ppg 9.7 rpg
2.0 apg 0.7 spg 0.7 bpg on 41.6 fg% (53.7 ts) (he wasn't even best player in that series, DWade was).
KG was good, not great scorer (he had great turnaround jumpers, good mid-range jumpers, good post game that included up and unders, fakes, spins and hooks, he is not Tyson Chandler how you could think while reading this thread lol),
elite passer, defender and rebounder.
Dirk was elite scorer, below average passer, above average rebounder and average defender.
Defense and rebounding are very important for power forward.
One could argue that you don't have to dig into advanced or traditional stats to understand that KG is more impactful player just from eye-test.
And if you'll still decide to do it you can see that Dirk's ppg, apg and ts% numbers are not out of this world or transcendent and he is known for nothing outside of it.
In the end in 1964-1965 season Bill Russell wasn't leading scoring for the Celtics. He averaged 14.1 ppg in reg season and 16.5 in postseason, while Sam Jones's averaged 25.9 and 28.6 respectively. Russell was still the best player on that team.
Last edited by i'm_still_beta; 06-26-2020 at 04:27 PM.
Ok, I'll take JET over Derozan any day. So you have a point there. But I think Wally is better than you are crediting him for. Look at his FG% and 3-fg %...higher than Jet's.
In this modern game, Dirk would be less dominant as so many bigs have range and can put the ball on the floor some... But in his day, he completely changed the game, constantly forcing teams to go small or get killed for it. The spacing he caused opened things up for everyone around him. Pulling bigs from the basket all the way out to the 3 point line made bums like Devin Harris look good.
okay, lets just set the record straight on some of these advanced stats so we can move on from them
first, your claim about the win shares being dependents on the number of wins isnt entirely true. you can lose a lot of games and still have a very high ws/48. for example in 03-04, when the mavs lost to the kings in 5 games, dirk put up a ws/48 of .287, which was the highest of any player in the playoffs that year, because he was so dominant in that series despite his team being horribly outmatched.
now lets look at the actual advanced stats
regular season careers
ws/48
dirk - .193 (+.011)
kg - .182
total ws
dirk - 206.3 (+14.9)
kg - 191.4
bpm
dirk - 4.5
kg - 5.6 (+1.1)
vorp
dirk - 84.8
kg - 96.9 (+12.1)
ortg/drtg differential
dirk - +12 (+1)
kg - +11
per
dirk - 22.4
kg - 22.7 (+0.3)
so for their regular season careers, they are very close in most categories, and pretty much cancel each other out with notable differences in two categories (dirk in ws, kg in vorp). both had great careers and proved quite valuable to their teams during the regular season, racking up lots of wins.
now lets see the playoff stats
ws/48
dirk - .188 (+.039)
kg - .149
total ws
dirk - 23.1 (+6.7)
kg - 16.4
bpm
dirk - 5.9 (+0.8)
kg - 5.1
vorp
dirk - 11.8 (+2.4)
kg - 9.4
ortg/drtg differential
dirk - +10 (+4)
kg - +6
per
dirk - 23.8 (+2.7)
kg - 21.1
so come playoffs, dirk beats kg in literally every single one of these categories
for people to claim kg is so much better in so many facets of basketball, its odd that these stats clearly favor dirks value in the playoffs when facing top notch compe ion
either dirks offensive value just far outweighs kgs values in other aspects of basketball, or perhaps kg simply isnt that far ahead of dirk in those aspects. no question kgs a better defender, but dirk was at least passable on defense, a very underrated rebounder, and his exceptionally low turnover rate for a scorer like himself is underappreciated a lot too.
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