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  1. #126
    Believe. Down Under's Avatar
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    The government should never restrict speech, but this goal can be achieved in a different way. Social media platforms just need to mercilessly crack down on "bull ." I can hear Chris, et al caterwauling about "Big Brother" as I typed that, but they forget FREEDOM OF ASSEMBLY is also a feature of the first amendment, and a PRIVATE company has the right to police their platforms in who they allow to assemble.

    A simple analogy is: If I had some conspira spouting dangerous nonsense in my house, I'd tell him to shut the up or leave.

    I'm okay with innocuous "conspiracy theories" being shared. Lizard people controlling the government, Aliens, flat earth, and what have you. But the buck stops when it comes to like this:

    https://www.snopes.com/tachyon/2020/...masks-post.png
    How is this going to happen unless Social media platforms are treated as 'publishers' & held accountable for what they 'publish'.

  2. #127
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    The government should never restrict speech, but this goal can be achieved in a different way. Social media platforms just need to mercilessly crack down on "bull ." I can hear Chris, et al caterwauling about "Big Brother" as I typed that, but they forget FREEDOM OF ASSEMBLY is also a feature of the first amendment, and a PRIVATE company has the right to police their platforms in who they allow to assemble.

    A simple analogy is: If I had some conspira spouting dangerous nonsense in my house, I'd tell him to shut the up or leave.

    I'm okay with innocuous "conspiracy theories" being shared. Lizard people controlling the government, Aliens, flat earth, and what have you. But the buck stops when it comes to like this:

    https://www.snopes.com/tachyon/2020/...masks-post.png
    That’s fine, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see a court one day say that twitter is a limited public forum that requires some level of first amendment protection. They’ve already started inching that way: https://www.americanbar.org/groups/c...-social-media/

    I think we’re largely of the same mind, but I do think it necessary to go further in terms of limiting speech. The notion of the marketplace of ideas was that good speech would drown out the bad. What we’ve seen is the exact opposite. Maybe your suggestion is the right way to go, and I’m glad to see things like the Facebook boycott, but there really needs to be harsh policing of blatantly false propaganda that’s being spewed on social media.

  3. #128
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Oh man that's sounds horrible and must be traumatic for you. If that person wasn't such a terrible human being he would've offered to send you the proper type of masks at his expense.
    defensive Trump supporter trying to feel superior and condescending.

    Why do you support Trump?

  4. #129
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    How is this going to happen unless Social media platforms are treated as 'publishers' & held accountable for what they 'publish'.
    Yeah, retroactively labeling them publishers might be the solution. Zucker , for instance, will never crack down on conspira nonsense because conspira s sharing bull with each other on the platform is what drives facebook activity today.

  5. #130
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    That’s fine, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see a court one day say that twitter is a limited public forum that requires some level of first amendment protection. They’ve already started inching that way: https://www.americanbar.org/groups/c...-social-media/

    I think we’re largely of the same mind, but I do think it necessary to go further in terms of limiting speech. The notion of the marketplace of ideas was that good speech would drown out the bad. What we’ve seen is the exact opposite. Maybe your suggestion is the right way to go, and I’m glad to see things like the Facebook boycott, but there really needs to be harsh policing of blatantly false propaganda that’s being spewed on social media.
    Yep, the internet has changed that dynamic. Before the internet, the marketplace of ideas had more efficacy since the lone dumbass minority opinion would get drowned out by a high ratio of truth, i.e. you might find one book in the library about an Alien conspiracy or one television special might air about it. Reasonable people would conclude if there's only one book about an Alien conspiracy in the library, it's probably not true. Now the "lone dumbass opinion" and can stay in their echo chambers with a simple google search. There's no longer "one book in the library," there's millions. And if there's millions of blogs and youtube videos about it, it MUST be true.

  6. #131
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    ^the illustration of how the internet has changed the marketplace of ideas dynamic is the flat earth conspiracy. Belief of a flat earth has actually increased over the years

  7. #132
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    Yep, the internet has changed that dynamic. Before the internet, the marketplace of ideas had more efficacy since the lone dumbass minority opinion would get drowned out by a high ratio of truth, i.e. you might find one book in the library about an Alien conspiracy or one television special might air about it. Reasonable people would conclude if there's only one book about an Alien conspiracy in the library, it's probably not true. Now the "lone dumbass opinion" and can stay in their echo chambers with a simple google search. There's no longer "one book in the library," there's millions. And if there's millions of blogs and youtube videos about it, it MUST be true.
    The flip side to this, and one that I think is more terrifying, is that expertise seems to not matter anymore. And it’s not just us sitting here Monday morning epidemiologisting. It’s that lay people think they are as qualified if not more qualified than experts. I think this started with climate change, but we’re seeing people express flat out incorrect while at the same discrediting an experts opinion. Several here have posted blatantly incorrect tweets on legal issues. There should be a rule where if you get caught spreading flat out lies, your ability to speak on the subject is revoked.

  8. #133
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    The flip side to this, and one that I think is more terrifying, is that expertise seems to not matter anymore. And it’s not just us sitting here Monday morning epidemiologisting. It’s that lay people think they are as qualified if not more qualified than experts. I think this started with climate change, but we’re seeing people express flat out incorrect while at the same discrediting an experts opinion. Several here have posted blatantly incorrect tweets on legal issues. There should be a rule where if you get caught spreading flat out lies, your ability to speak on the subject is revoked.
    How you handle that though? Take Dan Patrick, the former politico turned armchair epidemiologist calling out Dr Fauci and a cadre of ignorants backing him up. (and you can have any disagreements with Dr Fauci, and point out mistakes he's made, but flat out saying he lacks authority to talk about the subject matter is ridiculous).

    You know what the real problem is? We have little memory. You would think the internet would enable the exact opposite, and allow us to educate ourselves and a guy like Patrick to be shunned as an idiot in charge for the rest of whatever political career he has left.

    Instead, smart people figured out how to cash out on the gullible idiots through JooTubes and Patreon. So there's the opportunists too. It just really has turned largely into an idiocracy, and guys like the POTUS has given that minority a megaphone.

    It's just not clear to me what you do about that, other than make sure to tell people to show up and vote, turn the page, and leave it as another black mark in American history.

  9. #134
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    How you handle that though? Take Dan Patrick, the former politico turned armchair epidemiologist calling out Dr Fauci and a cadre of ignorants backing him up. (and you can have any disagreements with Dr Fauci, and point out mistakes he's made, but flat out saying he lacks authority to talk about the subject matter is ridiculous).

    You know what the real problem is? We have little memory. You would think the internet would enable the exact opposite, and allow us to educate ourselves and a guy like Patrick to be shunned as an idiot in charge for the rest of whatever political career he has left.

    Instead, smart people figured out how to cash out on the gullible idiots through JooTubes and Patreon. So there's the opportunists too. It just really has turned largely into an idiocracy, and guys like the POTUS has given that minority a megaphone.

    It's just not clear to me what you do about that, other than make sure to tell people to show up and vote, turn the page, and leave it as another black mark in American history.
    So I think there are several ways of skinning that cat. Making state and federal officials have to have some sort of advanced graduate degree (ma, mpa, phd) could act as a sort of indirect filter for idiots like dan Patrick. I think the most important change has to be cultural. Not everyone is smart. Not everyone’s opinion matters. Not everyone is an expert. Idiots who spread lies threw social media under the guise of attacking experts as “deep state operatives” need to be silenced. We need to cultivate a culture of respect for knowledge and expertise. That’s all very general I know.

    I do agree with your sentiment that we should know better about charlatans like Dan P. He strikes me as a useful idiot type that big business (Fer a, Miller, etc) bought. I’ve always agreed that getting money out of politics is a critical first step so getting rid of Citizen's United would be another measure as well.

    But in the end, I don’t know. We may have crossed the rubicon on this front

  10. #135
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    So I think there are several ways of skinning that cat. Making state and federal officials have to have some sort of advanced graduate degree (ma, mpa, phd) could act as a sort of indirect filter for idiots like dan Patrick. I think the most important change has to be cultural. Not everyone is smart. Not everyone’s opinion matters. Not everyone is an expert. Idiots who spread lies threw social media under the guise of attacking experts as “deep state operatives” need to be silenced. We need to cultivate a culture of respect for knowledge and expertise. That’s all very general I know.

    I do agree with your sentiment that we should know better about charlatans like Dan P. He strikes me as a useful idiot type that big business (Fer a, Miller, etc) bought. I’ve always agreed that getting money out of politics is a critical first step so getting rid of Citizen's United would be another measure as well.

    But in the end, I don’t know. We may have crossed the rubicon on this front
    I just don't think degrees is a good barometer. We have both people that didn't get a formal education but are relatively brilliant and upstanding, and you have people with degrees that are bible thumping idiots or soulless opportunists.

    I think this circles around power and money, and so I'm more in agreement with the second part of your post. Capitalism is great, don't get me wrong, but at some point the drive for power breeds corruption, and I think we're seeing some of that.

    There's just some normalization of what was otherwise completely corrupt and reprehensible behavior (and this predates this administration, tbh, these fellas just took the mask completely off).

    Citizen United is one, the revolving door of public/private service, terms, a lot of that needs to be revisited.

  11. #136
    A neverending cycle Trainwreck2100's Avatar
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    How you handle that though? Take Dan Patrick, the former politico turned armchair epidemiologist calling out Dr Fauci and a cadre of ignorants backing him up. (and you can have any disagreements with Dr Fauci, and point out mistakes he's made, but flat out saying he lacks authority to talk about the subject matter is ridiculous).

    You know what the real problem is? We have little memory. You would think the internet would enable the exact opposite, and allow us to educate ourselves and a guy like Patrick to be shunned as an idiot in charge for the rest of whatever political career he has left.

    Instead, smart people figured out how to cash out on the gullible idiots through JooTubes and Patreon. So there's the opportunists too. It just really has turned largely into an idiocracy, and guys like the POTUS has given that minority a megaphone.

    It's just not clear to me what you do about that, other than make sure to tell people to show up and vote, turn the page, and leave it as another black mark in American history.
    he was saying open "open up the country the young kids can function, and lock up the old people" (parphrasing)They did that, now he's mad all the young kids are getting sick

  12. #137
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    No. Anarchy is freedom. Freedom doesn't always imply positive outcomes, but it's defined as complete freedom for hierarchy,
    mostly true, except for "anarcho-capitalism" which is apparently a thing

  13. #138
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    he was saying open "open up the country the young kids can function, and lock up the old people" (parphrasing)They did that, now he's mad all the young kids are getting sick
    It's worse. He didn't just ignore what the expert said, and ed up. He actually questioned his credentials. A person that lacks any foundation to do that. It's really idiocy and ignorance to it's maximum expression.

    Even more critical, you can check all the boxes that supposedly matter here: blood on his hands, irreparable damage, completely and absolutely wrong, etc... but somehow people apparently keep on voting for this guy. what gives?

  14. #139
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Okay, so Coronavirus has killed 130k people, and wingnuts on various forums and social media platforms keep insisting the media is "fear mongering" us so they can control us, drive up ratings, etc. They also keep saying, "Yeee haaaawwww, I'm less likely to die of the Covid than a car accident!" (not true). They'll also say that anyone fearing Covid (liberals) are pussies and need to toughen up and live life. Cool.

    But when a story breaks about an illegal alien murdering someone, Conservatives believe that is just the start of Messicans and other browns flooding into their neighborhoods and raping and pillaging everything in sight. Or we can go back further and do ent their fear of various Islamic terrorist factions, them thinking ISIS or Al Qaeda will be soon flying planes into every skyscraper in the country if we don't "shock and awe" the Middle East back to the stone age and ban travel from the Middle East.

    Facts are, you're much, much more likely to die of Covid than be killed by a Messican or Muslim, but conservatives fear the latter event much more.

    Any theories on why that is? Seems to make no sense to me given the odds of each happening. Again, you're more likely to harmed or killed by the Coronavirus than an illegal alien or terrorist. Wonder why conservative don't call it fear mongering when the Fox Newses and Briebarts breathlessly report on instances of an illegal killing someone in a car accident or Muslim knife attack in the UK. Those events are exceedingly are.
    They have actually studied this at the brain level, so there actually is a scientific answer to that.

    Conservatives are much more fearful in general. Hitting their fear button works.

    There is a good blog here that runs through a lot of the studies.

    https://www.thescienceofpsychotherap...iberal-brains/

    “Neurocognitive Correlates of Conservatism and Liberalism” by Amodio, Jost, Master, and Yee, published in 2007.

  15. #140
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    It's worse. He didn't just ignore what the expert said, and ed up. He actually questioned his credentials. A person that lacks any foundation to do that. It's really idiocy and ignorance to it's maximum expression.

    Even more critical, you can check all the boxes that supposedly matter here: blood on his hands, irreparable damage, completely and absolutely wrong, etc... but somehow people apparently keep on voting for this guy. what gives?
    Pretty much. This fall will be very interesting to see enough people finally fed up with party of stupid. Texas is getting to be a battleground, and I think when it flips you will see a huge wake-up call for conservatives.

  16. #141
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    The government should never restrict speech, but this goal can be achieved in a different way. Social media platforms just need to mercilessly crack down on "bull ." I can hear Chris, et al caterwauling about "Big Brother" as I typed that, but they forget FREEDOM OF ASSEMBLY is also a feature of the first amendment, and a PRIVATE company has the right to police their platforms in who they allow to assemble.

    A simple analogy is: If I had some conspira spouting dangerous nonsense in my house, I'd tell him to shut the up or leave.

    I'm okay with innocuous "conspiracy theories" being shared. Lizard people controlling the government, Aliens, flat earth, and what have you. But the buck stops when it comes to like this:

    https://www.snopes.com/tachyon/2020/...masks-post.png
    They aren't innocuous though. Once you fall into the first one, you fall into others.

    Believe it or not, science has something to say about that.

    Mildly fun yootube that walks through it.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z98U1nMFrJQ

    Thing is once you start down the path, confirmation bias does most of the work. interesting thing about dopamine receptors in there as well.

  17. #142
    Pronouns: Your/Dad TheGreatYacht's Avatar
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    They aren't innocuous though. Once you fall into the first one, you fall into others.

    Believe it or not, science has something to say about that.

    Mildly fun yootube that walks through it.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z98U1nMFrJQ

    Thing is once you start down the path, confirmation bias does most of the work. interesting thing about dopamine receptors in there as well.
    Nah. It's more about once you see the truth, you can never go back. You act as if their has never been conspiracies that turned out to be true. You act as if our government never lies and have their best interest at heart. You axt as if the media never lies and has integrity.

    Don't forget that the word "conspiracy theory" was a term invented by the CIA to discredit anyone that exposes their criminal activity.

  18. #143
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Don't forget that the word "conspiracy theory" was a term invented by the CIA to discredit anyone that exposes their criminal activity.


    Not only is that a conspiracy theory in itself, it's false too.

    The Oxford English Dictionary defines conspiracy theory as "the theory that an event or phenomenon occurs as a result of a conspiracy between interested parties; spec. a belief that some covert but influential agency (typically political in motivation and oppressive in intent) is responsible for an unexplained event". It cites a 1909 article in The American Historical Review as the earliest usage example, although it also appears in journals as early as April 1870. The word "conspiracy" derives from the Latin con- ("with, together") and spirare ("to breathe").

    "Reviewed Work: The Repeal of the Missouri Compromise: Its Origin and Authorship by P. Orman Ray". The American Historical Review.
    "The claim that [David R.] Atchison was the originator of the [Missouri Compromise] repeal may be termed a recrudescence of the conspiracy theory first asserted by Colonel John A. Parker of Virginia in 1880."

    The CIA was created in 1947.

  19. #144
    Pronouns: Your/Dad TheGreatYacht's Avatar
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    Not only is that a conspiracy theory in itself, it's false too.

    The Oxford English Dictionary defines conspiracy theory as "the theory that an event or phenomenon occurs as a result of a conspiracy between interested parties; spec. a belief that some covert but influential agency (typically political in motivation and oppressive in intent) is responsible for an unexplained event". It cites a 1909 article in The American Historical Review as the earliest usage example, although it also appears in journals as early as April 1870. The word "conspiracy" derives from the Latin con- ("with, together") and spirare ("to breathe").

    "Reviewed Work: The Repeal of the Missouri Compromise: Its Origin and Authorship by P. Orman Ray". The American Historical Review.
    "The claim that [David R.] Atchison was the originator of the [Missouri Compromise] repeal may be termed a recrudescence of the conspiracy theory first asserted by Colonel John A. Parker of Virginia in 1880."

    The CIA was created in 1947.
    The CIA’s Invention of the “Conspiracy Theorist”: Smear Campaign to Discredit Dissenters

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-ci...enters/5403876


  20. #145
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    Gosh, who to believe, the Oxford Dictionary or GlobalResearch.ca?

  21. #146
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    They have actually studied this at the brain level, so there actually is a scientific answer to that.

    Conservatives are much more fearful in general. Hitting their fear button works.

    There is a good blog here that runs through a lot of the studies.

    https://www.thescienceofpsychotherap...iberal-brains/
    Yes, I'm familiar with these studies, and it makes sense that the conservative brain would be wired differently since they were reared in more insular and strict environments. The good news is the brain is remarkably plastic, even in older ages, and by exposing yourself to different experiences, you can very much rewire your brain into becoming "more liberal." Don't know how many anecdotes I've heard/read of people changing their political views after travelling abroad or when they return from college (and no, it's not because of "liberal indoctrination" as universities, but because you tend to meet people from different cultures).

    What makes no sense, though, is that it seems the typical conservative fear response isn't being triggered by Covid. Same with school and mass shootings. Conservatives will downplay those as being exceedingly rare events, but believe a home invasion robbery will happen at any time, especially if they see the illegal immigration numbers ticking up. Looks like their fear response is highly linked to their social and political perspectives.

  22. #147
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Cuomo 30K+ deaths, gets a free pass and even a participation award from the left.

    Abbott 2600 deaths, gets dragged through the streets and called everything but a white man by the left

    It's not about lives.
    muh Cuomo

  23. #148
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Yes, I'm familiar with these studies, and it makes sense that the conservative brain would be wired differently since they were reared in more insular and strict environments. The good news is the brain is remarkably plastic, even in older ages, and by exposing yourself to different experiences, you can very much rewire your brain into becoming "more liberal." Don't know how many anecdotes I've heard/read of people changing their political views after travelling abroad or when they return from college (and no, it's not because of "liberal indoctrination" as universities, but because you tend to meet people from different cultures).

    What makes no sense, though, is that it seems the typical conservative fear response isn't being triggered by Covid. Same with school and mass shootings. Conservatives will downplay those as being exceedingly rare events, but believe a home invasion robbery will happen at any time, especially if they see the illegal immigration numbers ticking up. Looks like their fear response is highly linked to their social and political perspectives.
    Tone at the top. They follow directives form authority, and you have Trump setting the tone.

    That is the difference. They have placed their trust in a con man, who does not give a rats ass about them, and who would literally throw them to the wolves to save his own skin in a heartbeat.

    His interest is in playing down the scope of the disaster so he is pushing any narrative that accomplishes that task.

  24. #149
    Believe.
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    Well, if you want to get specific, I noticed right wingers couldn't bring themselves to say anything critical of President Trump while going out of their way to shame me for buying and wearing masks in general. One tried to shame me for posting a picture of what was later to be determined the wrong kind of mask unless part of that mask was covered in tape when that mask wasn't even purchased.
    Bwahahahaaha ChumpDumper on that TimDunkem level.of insecure.

    Lolol9lololololololookl

    Tried to shame me. Lololoolololilokoolok


    This is why I feel bad trolling ChumpDumper. Spurstalk isn't just the internet to him. Its actually a real meaningful space.for him.

    Yikes

  25. #150
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    thldren still trying

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