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  1. #26
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    Isn't that what 'muh Chicago' is all about? Peeps shooting each other out?

    To be fair, NYC was also a hub of crime until the mid 90's (det 42nd street)... so there's more factors than just Chi-town.
    You said "crime to rise" and the chart is murder rate. How was the crime rate during the same period?

    What part of which gun laws caused the decline in murder rate? Let's be specific. Was it the high capacity magazine manufacturing ban, the "evil features" ban, the 1986 FOPA?

  2. #27
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    They're protesters, not rioters.


  3. #28
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    They're protesters, not rioters.


  4. #29
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    What does this chart say to you?

    This is the UK

  5. #30
    Damns (Given): 0 Blake's Avatar
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    That's murder rate.

    Surely you folks aren't this hard up.
    Sun's up guns up Trump shields activated

  6. #31
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    The 'straw purchase" is almost indistinguishable from buying a gun as a gift. It's illegal to straw purchase a firearm, knowing the individual you intend to give it to cannot legally purchase one. So there is a crime happening at the time of purchase. Making another law about it won't make it more of a crime. You cannot police intent, you can only police actions.

    There's no reason to create false narratives to support a pragmatic stance though. Gun ownership is a responsibility and only responsible people should own them but that's very difficult thing to police and enforce. In what way would you separate the responsible from the irresponsible? Are you going to use the science of anatomy and set rights based on it? That's a slippery slope if so.
    This is what we do with age of consent laws, driving laws, and drinking and gambling laws, the logic being a 13 year old isn't "mature enough," due to their stage of development to sign contracts or consent to sex or even vote.

    You always seem to want an all or nothing solution to gun laws. My proposal wouldn't weed out all irresponsible gun owners, but it would weed out some, and some is better than none.

  7. #32
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    What does this chart say to you?

    This is the UK
    Handguns were banned for most purposes after the Dunblane school massacre in 1996
    Looks like the trend (your graph is crime incidents) was skyrocketing until the 1996 ban.

    Gun laws WORK.

    Here's the thing, though. I wouldn't want a full scale ban like the UK. We're a different culture where the gun is (unfortunately) an important part of US culture, especially in rural communities. I don't want to take away that from other people, so I'm okay with the "social contract" of trading some safety for rights, as we do with other things in life, like alcohol and tobacco consumption and other dangerous/risky activity.

  8. #33
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Looks like the trend (your graph is crime incidents) was skyrocketing until the 1996 ban.

    Gun laws WORK.

    Here's the thing, though. I wouldn't want a full scale ban like the UK. We're a different culture where the gun is (unfortunately) an important part of US culture, especially in rural communities. I don't want to take away that from other people, so I'm okay with the "social contract" of trading some safety for rights, as we do with other things in life, like alcohol and tobacco consumption and other dangerous/risky activity.
    knife/club whataboutism graph incoming

  9. #34
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    Looks like the trend (your graph is crime incidents) was skyrocketing until the 1996 ban.

    Gun laws WORK.

    Here's the thing, though. I wouldn't want a full scale ban like the UK. We're a different culture where the gun is (unfortunately) an important part of US culture, especially in rural communities. I don't want to take away that from other people, so I'm okay with the "social contract" of trading some safety for rights, as we do with other things in life, like alcohol and tobacco consumption and other dangerous/risky activity.
    That's the conclusion you draw from this?

    Which gun laws work in the US?

  10. #35
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    Yep. Gun control WORKS.

    Most of the illegal guns in circulation were stolen from Bubbas who haven't a clue about how to properly secure and store a firearm, and just leave it in the top dresser drawer in the improbable event a Brown person will invade his home while he's there (criminals aren't stupid. They'll case a location and know when Bubba is and isn't home).

  11. #36
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    Chicago passed a ban on handgun ownership in 1982. ... In 2010, the ban was struck down by the U.S. Supreme Court, and in 2013, Illinois became the last state in the nation to approve concealed carry. Illinois is considered to have fairly tight gun laws.Dec 10, 2018

    Where is that ban in that graph?

  12. #37
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Wow, concealed carry doesn't help the homicide rate at all.

  13. #38
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    As has been well-do ented, much of the plunge in the national gun homicide rate took place in the mid-to-late 1990s, during which the rate was cut in half. In the years that followed, it stayed mostly level. It ticked up again in 2015, and likely increased again last year — final statistics aren’t out yet — driven by a ballooning gun-murder rate in a few cities. It’s unclear whether new regulations have done much to counteract this trend.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/gun-...y-state-2017-6

  14. #39
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    Wow, concealed carry doesn't help the homicide rate at all.
    So we now have open carry. Besides, we aren't cops. Our job isn't to reduce the homicide rate, just to prevent us being part of it.

  15. #40
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    Chicago passed a ban on handgun ownership in 1982. ... In 2010, the ban was struck down by the U.S. Supreme Court, and in 2013, Illinois became the last state in the nation to approve concealed carry. Illinois is considered to have fairly tight gun laws.Dec 10, 2018

    Where is that ban in that graph?
    Um, the difference is the UK's ban was NATIONAL, while this was citywide. Hmmm? Wonder how you can get a gun into the city? Oh, you buy one in Aurora and take it to Chicago!

    And how about det trend after the gun law was struck down and concealed carry was allowed?


  16. #41
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    As has been well-do ented, much of the plunge in the national gun homicide rate took place in the mid-to-late 1990s, during which the rate was cut in half. In the years that followed, it stayed mostly level. It ticked up again in 2015, and likely increased again last year — final statistics aren’t out yet — driven by a ballooning gun-murder rate in a few cities. It’s unclear whether new regulations have done much to counteract this trend.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/gun-...y-state-2017-6
    Assault weapons ban in '94. And how about many other countries around the world that saw their homicide and crime rate drop after nationwide handgun bans and such? They WORK.

    But chill out. I don't want those bans here. Bubba can buy his toy if he proves he isn't a re .

  17. #42
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    Um, the difference is the UK's ban was NATIONAL, while this was citywide. Hmmm? Wonder how you can get a gun into the city? Oh, you buy one in Aurora and take it to Chicago!

    And how about det trend after the gun law was struck down and concealed carry was allowed?

    If you want to coerce a point from a chart, you can draw a line between any date and the highest point and say they are related. You causally dismissed the years between though. This was during the Obama administration. Are you going to also draw that correlation or does that not fit your new epiphany of left good, right bad?

    So you're saying with guns being legal in Chicago, the data doesn't illustrate it became easier for a criminal to acquire one? Then what is the purpose of new gun laws? Total ban seems like about as far as you could possibly go.
    Last edited by DMC; 07-07-2020 at 01:47 AM.

  18. #43
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    Wow, concealed carry doesn't help the homicide rate at all.
    So we now have open carry. Besides, we aren't cops. Our job isn't to reduce the homicide rate, just to prevent us being part of it.

  19. #44
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    I could easily make the point that CHL has coincided with decreased murder rates in the US. I could find charts to support any point I want to make. This isn't the point of CHL though and the Chicago issue wouldn't be resolved by CHL. It's a class separation issue, basically you have the French Riviera in some parts and Mogadishu in others. Where do you think the shootings occur?

  20. #45
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    Let’s all pretend that you guys don’t love black people killing black people.

  21. #46
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    Let’s all pretend that you guys don’t love black people killing black people.
    Let's pretend you're a remote viewer and aren't also guilty.

  22. #47
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    If you want to coerce a point from a chart, you can draw a line between any date and the highest point and say they are related. You causally dismissed the years between though. This was during the Obama administration. Are you going to also draw that correlation or does that not fit your new epiphany of left good, right bad?
    It's often better to extrapolate trends over a period of time rather than day-by-day, year-by-year and what have you. Trends don't always emerge linearly.

    It was also after the Rs took control of the house and senate. That said, Obama wasn't really left anyway. Never a fan.

    I didn't need an epiphany to understand that left is good and right is bad (for the sake of the argument, I'm leaving out extremes, like communists and white nationalists, both equally ). I think the platform of the mainstream American conservative party is illogical, irrational, and harmful. It's a vacuous ideology that only makes sense if you really, really need a couple of more crumbs added to your yearly bottom line through their oh so generous tax cuts.

  23. #48
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    Let's pretend you're a remote viewer and aren't also guilty.
    You would be disappointed with the people I hired.

  24. #49
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    I could easily make the point that CHL has coincided with decreased murder rates in the US. I could find charts to support any point I want to make. This isn't the point of CHL though and the Chicago issue wouldn't be resolved by CHL. It's a class separation issue, basically you have the French Riviera in some parts and Mogadishu in others. Where do you think the shootings occur?
    About concealed carry permits:

    You have completed all the required training courses.
    What do I keep saying my demand of ALL gun owners is? Training.

    That said, it's funny how the maker of the graph left out the 1994 Assault Weapons ban. It's seems homicides were still sharply trending up at the beginning of the Concealed Carry era and then dropped after 1994 with the introduction of the assault weapons ban.



    Gun laws WORK.

    And yes, I wouldn't expect much of a change with an expansion of concealed carry since, as I've said, guns in the hands of PROVEN responsible gun owners likely doesn't tick up the murders.

  25. #50
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    So we now have open carry. Besides, we aren't cops. Our job isn't to reduce the homicide rate, just to prevent us being part of it.
    Still not a good look for the right. In fact they look downright stupid. lol the right.

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