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  1. #276
    Like I said... tmtcsc's Avatar
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    Good Gawd, no one on this roster is Untradeable. NO ONE. This thing is a mess and the one elite player we have doesn't play defense & can't stretch the floor. This team needs players who compete, can shoot the 3 and defend.

  2. #277
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I can't speak for Teeds, but I don't see Murray's performance as a counter to the push to trade him. Again, STers need to get out of their heads the idea that you should trade away bad players and keep good ones. It's dumb and leads to unrealistic trade expectations where you want value for garbage. DJM is the poster child for a guy who'd make a ton of sense on the block. He has talent and certainly can help win games in the right situation, but he didn't develop role-player skills and doesn't have the ceiling to be a star. I think this year has been way more evidence for how low the ceilings for the Spurs' prospects actually are. Walker is the only guy who's legit showing blue-chip potential at this point, and that's only if you squint.

    There's also the case to be made that Murray least fits the team out of any of the White, Murray, Walker, Vassell, Johnson and even DeRozan group. Far from being a bright spot, the WAY Murray has played has done nothing to change that. The entire offense shifting to accommodate playing him and White together with any offensive player has led to a weird system that makes it hard to generate three-point looks. He's been healthier than Derrick, and that's really important, but that is more telling of Derrick's limitations than DeJounte's advantages. It's just really hard to imagine DJM giving up the ball so much that a star could actually have it while also having a more traditional playing style that generates good shots. It's true that Murray isn't the only one at fault. DeRozan and Johnson both get it in their heads way too often to try to beat their men off the dribble in order to take contested shots. But Keldon's at least young enough to change, and DMDR is better at being a ball-dominant downhill offensive engine than Murray is.

    In an ideal world, something built around a healthy, durable White and two of Walker, Vassell and Johnson is a perimeter trio with potential. It might not be realistic to such an extent that the Spurs might have to look at trading White and coaching Murray to stop calling his own number. Their ceiling is lower that way, but the floor is probably a bit higher. DeJounte's improvement as an inside scorer is commendable, and it might even make sense to see if he could develop a better feel for the game while the team is a non-compe or anyway. Certainly, the benefits of him as a willing spokesperson for the team is helpful. But if the goal is to be a good team or to create an environment to develop Walker or some young perimeter guy who is a better prospect than Walker, then even giving Murray another year might not be tenable.

  3. #278
    Veteran The Truth #6's Avatar
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    I can't speak for Teeds, but I don't see Murray's performance as a counter to the push to trade him. Again, STers need to get out of their heads the idea that you should trade away bad players and keep good ones. It's dumb and leads to unrealistic trade expectations where you want value for garbage. DJM is the poster child for a guy who'd make a ton of sense on the block. He has talent and certainly can help win games in the right situation, but he didn't develop role-player skills and doesn't have the ceiling to be a star. I think this year has been way more evidence for how low the ceilings for the Spurs' prospects actually are. Walker is the only guy who's legit showing blue-chip potential at this point, and that's only if you squint.

    There's also the case to be made that Murray least fits the team out of any of the White, Murray, Walker, Vassell, Johnson and even DeRozan group. Far from being a bright spot, the WAY Murray has played has done nothing to change that. The entire offense shifting to accommodate playing him and White together with any offensive player has led to a weird system that makes it hard to generate three-point looks. He's been healthier than Derrick, and that's really important, but that is more telling of Derrick's limitations than DeJounte's advantages. It's just really hard to imagine DJM giving up the ball so much that a star could actually have it while also having a more traditional playing style that generates good shots. It's true that Murray isn't the only one at fault. DeRozan and Johnson both get it in their heads way too often to try to beat their men off the dribble in order to take contested shots. But Keldon's at least young enough to change, and DMDR is better at being a ball-dominant downhill offensive engine than Murray is.

    In an ideal world, something built around a healthy, durable White and two of Walker, Vassell and Johnson is a perimeter trio with potential. It might not be realistic to such an extent that the Spurs might have to look at trading White and coaching Murray to stop calling his own number. Their ceiling is lower that way, but the floor is probably a bit higher. DeJounte's improvement as an inside scorer is commendable, and it might even make sense to see if he could develop a better feel for the game while the team is a non-compe or anyway. Certainly, the benefits of him as a willing spokesperson for the team is helpful. But if the goal is to be a good team or to create an environment to develop Walker or some young perimeter guy who is a better prospect than Walker, then even giving Murray another year might not be tenable.
    Solid points.

    My brief analysis is that while DJ’s progress happily surprised many, his style of play is not conducive to be an actual point guard. He needs to be a 2 guard (if these distinctions even exist anymore). His mid range game is great in isolation but creates more stagnancy in the the flow of the offense. Seems like a great time to consider trading high. I am ok with White and Jones if we could trade Dejounte to get a player with a better fit.

  4. #279
    Veteran KobesAchilles's Avatar
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    I agree that we should trade Murray but this isn't the year to do it. We should wait until next year. He has shown improvement in the midrange so maybe (just maybe) he will develop an actual 3 point shot during the summer. If he doesn't get one by next season then trade his ass. We don't need a mini- DeRozan. But the reason to wait a year is due to his value being somewhat low. He will be the main guy next year so his stats should improve. This will improve his trade stock as well. He will still be young and on a good contract for a team. For some reason I think that if Murray kept his ty ass, midrange, no feel game but upped his ppg to like 20 then teams would be more willing to offer a first rounder for him. Especially the bad teams who can convince themselves if we trade Murray and our 1t for their 1st then they are getting back a good player and a decentish pick

  5. #280
    D up! exstatic's Avatar
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    Murray would be a much better player if he didn’t attempt difficult shots when he didn’t need to. Last game he threw up a spinning fade away jumper, uncontested, and it bounced off the rim. He’s elite in the mid range when he dribbles straight into the shot, or levels off his man with a crossover, fading slightly left. DeRozan has been an awful influence in that regard.

  6. #281
    Believe. MultiTroll's Avatar
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    His development has been soo f'd up with Bryn Bryn, Wombat, Derozian, Coach telling him to pattern his game after Chrissy Paul (they are two COMPLETELY different playing styles + CPO hasn't won . Albeit he did very well against got State before the injury)

    All in all he has done excellent. Were he to be playing in his proper role with compatible players and a competent coach i firmly believe All Star is obtainable.
    Like to see any of you defend the perimeter with Bryn Bryn and Wombat at your side.

  7. #282
    Believe. GAustex's Avatar
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    If he could only shoot a decent percentage on the 3. All star 2 guard. Throw it to him when in need and he has a good chance to get a decent shot. Combine that with a high percent 3 pointer.
    Just cannot trust him as PG

  8. #283
    Believe. longhorn's Avatar
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    Good Gawd, no one on this roster is Untradeable. NO ONE. This thing is a mess and the one elite player we have doesn't play defense & can't stretch the floor. This team needs players who compete, can shoot the 3 and defend.
    Did...did you just call DeRozan an elite player?

  9. #284
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    Murray.is our second best player, no need to trade

  10. #285
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    There’s an argument blowing up the whole roster outside the 2019 and 2020 draft is the right course of action

    But I don’t think that’s how you arrived at this topic and singled out Murray before he had a breakout year and proved to be one of the few bright spots this year compared to expectations set for him going in.

    on its face the first comment from your original post could not be more hilariously wrong.

    Hold the L.
    It partially explains my arrival and the first comment was spot on.

    His incremental improvement has been conflated with his breaking out. All that's really happened is his play making and finishing went from bad to decent, his deep mid range pullup has been good (but his short mid range game, floaters/runners, etc. and his 3, have been bad).

    MPG, usage and his subsisting on a shot profile that beefs up his ppg, but bails out the defense and doesn't actually help the offense, mostly explain the counting stats uptick, but the catch-all metrics say he's similar to the same flawed player who can't/refuses to create/convert high value shots.


    Walker is the only guy who's legit showing blue-chip potential at this point, and that's only if you squint.

    There's also the case to be made that Murray least fits the team out of any of the White, Murray, Walker, Vassell, Johnson and even DeRozan group.

    In an ideal world, something built around a healthy, durable White and two of Walker, Vassell and Johnson is a perimeter trio with potential.

    But if the goal is to be a good team or to create an environment to develop Walker or some young perimeter guy who is a better prospect than Walker, then even giving Murray another year might not be tenable.
    Walker IV has been replacement level to this point. At this juncture, it's more so about whether he can be a legit rotation player than a foundational one, but I get and agree with the gist.


    Murray.is our second best player, no need to trade
    No, he isn't and even if he were that misses the point, which is that he has no role on a good - elite team (which granted I don't actually think is their goal, but is theoretically supposed to be every team's) and that this core as a collective is lacking in both talent and fit and therefore not worth continuing to invest copious amounts of time and money into.

  11. #286
    Like I said... tmtcsc's Avatar
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    Did...did you just call DeRozan an elite player?
    Absolutely. He's an elite mid-range scorer. Unfortunately, that day has come & gone in today's NBA. He still struggles to even take 3 pointers.

  12. #287
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    If the return is good? Sure. No one on this roster should be untouchable

  13. #288
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    you absolutely do not trade him

  14. #289
    The St. Croix Boy duncan2k5's Avatar
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    Did...did you just call DeRozan an elite player?
    Unbelievable!

  15. #290
    Believe. Prime BEEF's Avatar
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    If the return is good? Sure. No one on this roster should be untouchable
    Agreed

  16. #291
    Veteran The Truth #6's Avatar
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    It's tough. He works his ass off. Is super dedicated. Has a passion for defense. And has a passion to improve. Those are all amazing, which is why the idea of trading him seems like a bad idea. But if Pop can't convince him to play to his strengths and minimize his weaknesses, and allow others to flourish, then as Chinook suggested (as far as I interpreted it), then there is a ceiling for this team and it impacts how other wings can grow. It's a much better challenge to deal with then the DDR situation, but still a puzzle to see how everyone fits together. White, Vassel, Keldon, and IV can all play off the ball to some degree, and/or at least accept that role, but I don't see that with happening with Dejounte. It's a double edged sword. White can accept the second team role but he has challenges being assertive enough. Again, if Pop can reign Murray in, or at least hold him more accountable if he's going to be trusted to be the leader of the team, then I'm on board.

    In short, Pop needs to coach him way harder, just like he did Parker, in my opinion.
    Last edited by The Truth #6; 05-12-2021 at 12:04 PM.

  17. #292
    Still Sporting Ben Davis Allan Rowe vs Wade's Avatar
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    DeRozan has been an awful influence in that regard.
    but if derozan could influence DJM etal into getting to the free throw line

    at his size, and the way he does it (no gimmicks), he's arguably the best in the league

    only keldon seems to 'get it' -- free throws are free. if it's free it's for me.

  18. #293
    Veteran Dverde's Avatar
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    The player to replace him hurt all the time...Tre is a nice backup like Patty

  19. #294
    Believe. PrimeMinister's Avatar
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    I've seen enough. Delusional, low IQ and unskilled, is an untenable combination.

    Maybe someday he'll accept that his only path to being a useful player is to become a 3 and D type, but it more than likely won't be here. Without any elite young talent to put him in his place, he'll likely continue his delusions of grandeur. Either way, I'm not interested in wasting a bunch more years on the off chance that changes (the potential payoff isn't worth it), while he cramps the current and future youth of this team because he's such a poor fit.

    It's insane to think of the contract this bit player received based on nothing. On his own, he won't fetch much, but if Aldridge or DeRozan can return a pick (something like Aldridge for Olynyk and 23), they could add it to 11 to try to get to 5.
    For reference- this is the OP.

    Something tells me this was less about pragmatic roster building and more about an individual bone to pick with one player who promptly all over this take.

    hold the L.

  20. #295
    Veteran John B's Avatar
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    Nah, Pop already gave the keys of the car to DJ as the undisputed PG of the Spurs. I think he got the leadership, the motivation to win. I just hate when he gambles too much for a steal. Just keep in front of the guy.

  21. #296
    Believe.
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    I can't speak for Teeds, but I don't see Murray's performance as a counter to the push to trade him. Again, STers need to get out of their heads the idea that you should trade away bad players and keep good ones. It's dumb and leads to unrealistic trade expectations where you want value for garbage. DJM is the poster child for a guy who'd make a ton of sense on the block. He has talent and certainly can help win games in the right situation, but he didn't develop role-player skills and doesn't have the ceiling to be a star. I think this year has been way more evidence for how low the ceilings for the Spurs' prospects actually are. Walker is the only guy who's legit showing blue-chip potential at this point, and that's only if you squint.

    There's also the case to be made that Murray least fits the team out of any of the White, Murray, Walker, Vassell, Johnson and even DeRozan group. Far from being a bright spot, the WAY Murray has played has done nothing to change that. The entire offense shifting to accommodate playing him and White together with any offensive player has led to a weird system that makes it hard to generate three-point looks. He's been healthier than Derrick, and that's really important, but that is more telling of Derrick's limitations than DeJounte's advantages. It's just really hard to imagine DJM giving up the ball so much that a star could actually have it while also having a more traditional playing style that generates good shots. It's true that Murray isn't the only one at fault. DeRozan and Johnson both get it in their heads way too often to try to beat their men off the dribble in order to take contested shots. But Keldon's at least young enough to change, and DMDR is better at being a ball-dominant downhill offensive engine than Murray is.

    In an ideal world, something built around a healthy, durable White and two of Walker, Vassell and Johnson is a perimeter trio with potential. It might not be realistic to such an extent that the Spurs might have to look at trading White and coaching Murray to stop calling his own number. Their ceiling is lower that way, but the floor is probably a bit higher. DeJounte's improvement as an inside scorer is commendable, and it might even make sense to see if he could develop a better feel for the game while the team is a non-compe or anyway. Certainly, the benefits of him as a willing spokesperson for the team is helpful. But if the goal is to be a good team or to create an environment to develop Walker or some young perimeter guy who is a better prospect than Walker, then even giving Murray another year might not be tenable.
    The lineup of Murray - [ White/Vassell/Lonnie ] - Mills - Gay - Poeltl is a 30 net rating lineup. The #1 net rating lineup in the NBA for all lineups over 100 min played.

    The starting lineup with DJ-White has an offensive rating of 117.9 the only lineup higher with 300 min played is SAC and PHI starting lineups. Higher than UTA, PHX , POR , MIL starting lineup of top 10 offensive teams.

  22. #297
    OH YOU LIKE IT!!! slick'81's Avatar
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    Just move him to sg ,and teach him that three ball

  23. #298
    Believe. GAustex's Avatar
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    Just move him to sg ,and teach him that three ball
    This

  24. #299
    D up! exstatic's Avatar
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    Just move him to sg ,and teach him that three ball
    Back in 1985, the Pistons were just starting to emerge as an NBA force. They had Isiah Thomas at point, and he had been an All Star 4 times, including his rookie year. They had a pick in the teens, and drafted a PG from McNeese St. There just wasn’t any question that they would play them together, and the playmaking would sort itself out.

    Just play them together. Everything else will sort itself out.

  25. #300
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Just move him to sg ,and teach him that three ball
    That does nothing to solve the problem. The problem (directly as it relates to Murray and not Pop and the other players) is that Murray holds the ball and calls his own number too often. That's not going to change because he's the "SG". He did it with White and DeRozan on the court despite both of them being better play-makers. Murray's behavior and feel for the game are Murray factors, not factors for being called whatever position.

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