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  1. #301
    Veteran emanueldavidginobili's Avatar
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    I get it he over dribbles some times makes bad decisions and calls his number but this kid is still trying to feel things out and you can't without time on the court. He's been making strides each and every year. His passing and ball handling is light years better than it was when he first came in, even his decision making. Came out of UW raw as he didn't play his rookie year, started to play some his second year which was basically his rookie year, didn't play in year three, season four which was after a major injury and always takes a full season afterwards to get fully back and plus covid happened and now here we are and he's having his best season ever in his only year that he's had free reigns, also first year with playing over 25 minutes per game. The kids in a clear upward trajectory, and I expect him to make an even bigger jump next season.

  2. #302
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    For reference- this is the OP.

    Something tells me this was less about pragmatic roster building and more about an individual bone to pick with one player who promptly all over this take.

    hold the L.
    Again, it was both (they're one and the same, since I don't believe his archetype has a role on an upper echelon team in the modern NBA).

    He can fool casuals and homers/apologists alike with his counting stats improvement mostly borne of increase mpg/usage, but he's the same flawed offensive player he's ever been.

    At thinking a guy playing like it's '01 " all over this take" and that I need to "hold the L". If there were so much as a credible argument to the contrary of what I said, I obviously wouldn't have bumped the thread.
    Last edited by TD 21; 05-12-2021 at 04:00 PM.

  3. #303
    Believe. PrimeMinister's Avatar
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    Again, it was both (they're one and the same, since I don't believe his archetype has a role on an upper echelon team in the modern NBA).

    He can fool casuals and homers/apologists alike with his counting stats improvement mostly borne of increase mpg/usage, but he's the same flawed offensive player he's ever been.

    At thinking a guy playing like it's '01 " all over this take" and that I need to "hold the L". If there were so much as a credible argument to the contrary of what I said, I obviously wouldn't have bumped the thread.
    You called his combination of skills and mindset “untenable” - you did everything short of say he should be out of the league at a time when this entire board was at peak anti-Murray sentiment.

    he’s not a perfect player, but he’s also not a finished product and is improving. The criticisms of him on ST pre season we’re “low IQ” “can’t run an offense” etc... and while he has his shortcomings- he demonstrably proved most of these complaints to be false. And I’m not saying he’s an elite playmaker or anything like that- but strictly based on the expectations we had pre season, dejounte ran past them and anyone actually discussing in good faith would recognize that.

    YOU bumped the thread because you thought your conclusion was a hot take that aged well- but it didn’t. If your point at this moment is blow it all up, ok, fine. But your original take was that dejounte murray has an “untenable” combination of skills and low IQ on top of being “delusional” - you’re hilariously wrong and even more dumb for bumping the thread like it aged well.

  4. #304
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    You called his combination of skills and mindset “untenable” - you did everything short of say he should be out of the league at a time when this entire board was at peak anti-Murray sentiment.

    he’s not a perfect player, but he’s also not a finished product and is improving. The criticisms of him on ST pre season we’re “low IQ” “can’t run an offense” etc... and while he has his shortcomings- he demonstrably proved most of these complaints to be false. And I’m not saying he’s an elite playmaker or anything like that- but strictly based on the expectations we had pre season, dejounte ran past them and anyone actually discussing in good faith would recognize that.

    YOU bumped the thread because you thought your conclusion was a hot take that aged well- but it didn’t. If your point at this moment is blow it all up, ok, fine. But your original take was that dejounte murray has an “untenable” combination of skills and low IQ on top of being “delusional” - you’re hilariously wrong and even more dumb for bumping the thread like it aged well.
    They are in terms of driving winning. That doesn't preclude him from putting up empty calories counting stats on a bad team though, which seems to pacify the apologists. His only average-plus skill on offense, is the least valuable one: mid range pullups.

    He'll be 25 in 4 months. The torn ACL was an obvious setback, but there's been no attempt to modernize his game. He's the same flawed player he always was, just a more refined version.

    My takes have FWS (fine wine syndrome), you're just like the other brainwashed apologists, stuck in the past, lapping up out of context counting stats and unaware/unwilling to accept what wins in '21.

  5. #305
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    I've always thought that Derrick White ran the offense better and more smoother than Murray. If the Spurs aren't going to develop Tre Jones or give the reins to Derrick White, maybe the Spurs look to trade for a veteran PG?

  6. #306
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    He'll be 25 in 4 months. The torn ACL was an obvious setback, but there's been no attempt to modernize his game.
    I know that you're a brainwashed apologist when it comes to the value of counting stats and you're stuck in the past where only rates for major categories matter but this is just an out-and-out falsehood, my guy. Murray's three-point shooting rate is up 50% from last season and 500% from his second season in the league. To deny he's trending in the right direction would be impossible, even for someone like you who bows at the altar of his idols. There are other stats that we can point to but that alone disproves what I quoted.

    Even ignoring the numbers, Murray's a guy who basically was forced to position himself in the dunker spot during his first two seasons because he wasn't able to do much else. These days, he's a legitimate ballhandler with ever-improving court vision and a low turnover rate by anyone's standards.

    @ "no attempt to modernize his game"

  7. #307
    5. timvp's Avatar
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    There's also the case to be made that Murray least fits the team out of any of the White, Murray, Walker, Vassell, Johnson and even DeRozan group. Far from being a bright spot, the WAY Murray has played has done nothing to change that. The entire offense shifting to accommodate playing him and White together with any offensive player has led to a weird system that makes it hard to generate three-point looks. He's been healthier than Derrick, and that's really important, but that is more telling of Derrick's limitations than DeJounte's advantages. It's just really hard to imagine DJM giving up the ball so much that a star could actually have it while also having a more traditional playing style that generates good shots.
    Ehhhhhh ... I understand the concerns regarding Murray; he can frustrate sometimes during this phase of his learning curve. But I think you're blowing it out of proportion, tbh. Murray's usage percentage is 23.5%, which ranks him ~60th in the NBA and lower than DeRozan and even Gay. Murray has the usage rate of like a second or even third option. Players around the same rate: Tim Hardaway Jr., Elfrid Payton, Dennis Schroder, Norman Powell. No one would point to one of those players as a reason why a star wouldn't/couldn't get enough touches. From my quick count, he's the 20th ranked point guard in usage percentage -- hardly the star-neuterer that you seem to be portraying.

    If the Spurs got a star, finding enough touches would simply be a matter of removing DeRozan and Gay from the equation. That alone would free up enough touches, tbh.

    I recognize that Murray isn't the easiest piece to fit when trying to complete a roster building puzzle. But he's not the impossible fit that some Spurs fans make him out to be, either. If he takes a few more leaps in terms of his three-point rate, learns to draw more fouls and continues to master pick-and-rolls, that'd take care of a lot of problems.

    I'm not even sure he needs to completely abandon his two-point jumper game. Every successful team needs a player who can freelance and make something out of nothing. Murray being able to score off the dribble and when a play has been snuffed out is a useful skill. It's mostly just a matter of Murray better learning to pick his spots. I don't think it's a matter of him being selfish or being dumb or anything like that. He's just early in his development.

    But, yeah, Murray has made great progress this year in a lot of areas. If he keeps improving, I think he definitely could be a key part of a good team. He'll always have weaknesses but that's true with every player. Even superduperstars have flaws if you get picky enough: Jokic defending the rim, Giannis shooting, Harden eating, Doncic perimeter defense, etc. Put the right star with Murray and it'd be seamless. The main issue right now is the "star" is DeRozan, who is basically the worst possible fit next to Murray because they have overlapping weaknesses.

  8. #308
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    I know that you're a brainwashed apologist when it comes to the value of counting stats and you're stuck in the past where only rates for major categories matter but this is just an out-and-out falsehood, my guy. Murray's three-point shooting rate is up 50% from last season and 500% from his second season in the league. To deny he's trending in the right direction would be impossible, even for someone like you who bows at the altar of his idols. There are other stats that we can point to but that alone disproves what I quoted.

    Even ignoring the numbers, Murray's a guy who basically was forced to position himself in the dunker spot during his first two seasons because he wasn't able to do much else. These days, he's a legitimate ballhandler with ever-improving court vision and a low turnover rate by anyone's standards.

    @ "no attempt to modernize his game"
    @ Still over my delivery, attempting to resort to semantics and not being able to comprehend stats.

    Murray's 3pAR: 19.8, 0.56, 17.4, 20.4. So other than the outlier, spent playing much of the time with another non 3-point shooter (Anderson) and around a post player, he's consistently hovered around in the same range, all of which are embarrassingly low for a non rim running center, in this era.

    Here's his pathetic FTr: 25.9, 24.3, 17.9, 13.9.

    For his career, a whopping 55% of his shots are in the midrange, including 60% this season.

    Again, more refined, but boiled down: Same, old flawed player. Handle and vision have to do with his position, not era and of course they improved. They were disgraceful for a so called PG and are now within' sniffing distance of mediocre. Congratulations!

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