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  1. #376
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    Last post for this thread tonight (it's a general comment, and not directed at Sugus ):

    I'll never suc b to the "any change is good change" thinking many people are starting to subscribe to due to the Spurs having a losing season. It's a shallow mindset and one lacking of patience or creativity. The losing season is exposing players who should stay and who should go. You choose your direction based on that. You don't kick out the players who actually know how to compete. Those are the guys you go to war with.

    Phew, it's been a while since I've gotten on a computer to post and not post through my phone.

  2. #377
    Veteran KobesAchilles's Avatar
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    Last post for this thread tonight (it's a general comment, and not directed at Sugus ):

    I'll never suc b to the "any change is good change" thinking many people are starting to subscribe to due to the Spurs having a losing season. It's a shallow mindset and one lacking of patience or creativity. The losing season is exposing players who should stay and who should go. You choose your direction based on that. You don't kick out the players who actually know how to compete. Those are the guys you go to war with.

    Phew, it's been a while since I've gotten on a computer to post and not post through my phone.
    I hate my phone too. Makes it a pain

    That being said, I want Murray gone for basketball reasons as well. It’s disingenuous to say one losing season. It’s been 3 losing season and probably not going to end next year as well. This team needs a rehaul and a new approach. At what point do we make changes then? 5 losing years in a row? Is that enough patience? So after we lose again next year, is that when my patience should be thinning?

    I believe in when you see a problem you try to fix it now instead of staving it off for later. Murray needs the ball in his hands to be effective. He isn’t good enough to be a #1. He can’t play off ball at all. He is still a ty 3 point shooter and his running the offense still leaves a lot to be desired. He has improved on that though. Plus his dribbling is still iffy.

    I said earlier that there is no fast fix for the Spurs. There is no Tim Duncan coming to save us. But this way of doing things isn’t working. I don’t think we have the right people in place in pretty much anywhere from owner to GM to coach to assistants to players. It’s a rough time for us but patience isn’t what is needed. A fire under the ass is what is needed. Everyone just got to damn comfortable

    Like i said earlier though I would only trade Murray for Brown. And that’s probably not realistic but that’s my asking price. Murray, Thad and our 10th pick.

  3. #378
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    You can disagree with the perspective; it doesn't make it any less true, tbh. Objectively (maybe Morey-vely?), getting even two late lottery picks for a player picked at #29 is a great ROI. You as a team simply can't keep every player you draft, and tough choices are made every year regarding who's kept, who's cut, and who's promising but has to go for the betterment of the team. Look at it this way: if there was no promise, no potential, no I-wanna-keep-him feeling over a player, why would another team want them? You gotta sell high sometimes and hope you're selling at the peak, and not selling Bitcoin in '15, if you know what I mean.
    I guess I didn't make my point of view very clear. The fact that the Spurs drafted DJ at #29 and him playing like a lottery pick on a good contract is the great ROI already. Their developing DJ into a quality starter definitely was a good deal value-wise for a #29 draft pick.

    Point #1: Trading him now for exactly what he's worth now doesn't give any higher or lower ROI than keeping him. You can only get a higher ROI at this point by trading him for more than he's worth. Whether a deal like that is out there is a matter of debate. It gets even more complicated when talking about trading for picks because picks are such a gamble, which brings up the next point.

    Point #2: Since the draft is such a crapshoot, I feel like trading DJ for anything less than a #5 pick would not be worth it. If you look at the lottery picks every year, most of them don't pan out the way that teams hope they would. Let's take a look at the 2016 NBA draft (DJ's draft). Which of these top 10 picks in DJ's year would you trade DJ for straight up?

    1. Ben Simmons - He's better than DJ but he's on a max contract.
    2. Brandon Ingram - Same as Simmons, he's slightly better but he's on a 5 year $158 million contract.
    3. Jaylen Brown - He's better on a decent contract so yes.
    4. Dragan Bender - Out of the league
    5. Kris Dunn - Out of the league
    6. Buddy Hield - I don't think he's better than DJ, so no.
    7. Jamal Murray - Again, better than DJ but on a max contract.
    8. Marquese Chriss - Out of the league
    9. Jakob Poeltl - I guess you can't trade with your own team
    10. Thon Maker - Out of the league

    So: 4 out of the league, 1 definitely no (Hield), 1 definitely yes (Brown), 3 better but on max contracts (Simmons, Ingram, J Murray), and 1 doesn't count (Poeltl). Which makes 4/9 better and 5/9 worse than DJ.

    Some other examples: I remember a few years ago everyone was anticipating trading Aldridge for the #2 pick and possibly picking James Wiseman with that pick. And now James Wiseman is looking like a bust. Also, a lot of the Spurstalk draft favorites in the recent past have turned out to not be that great. I remember a lot of talk about people like Jalen Smith and Precious Achiuwa, for example. So the reality is that a lot of promising draft candidates will never turn out to be even as good as DJ is now.

    What? No they aren't lmao, what are you talking about? Other teams making bad draft choices has literally no correlation to the Spurs' own pickings and draft probabilities. The correlation is actually the opposite of what you're describing; given the Spurs had such prowess to make a great pick in selecting DJ with a #29th pick, it's perfectly fair to assume they can make even better selections, or at least consistently solid/outperforming ones, given an even higher draft pick. I perfectly know the draft is uncertain, but that's a given with anything regarding development of players, and I very much trust the Spurs' drafting department here.
    I don't believe the Spurs front office at this point in time is much better than other teams at making draft picks. Yes they do seem to make great late round picks, but their higher picks haven't been that great:

    Lonnie Walker IV: Not performing to expectations
    Luka Samanic: Cut
    Devin Vassell: Looks promising. But the jury's still out on whether Haliburton or someone else (Tyrese Maxey?) would have been better picks.
    Josh Primo: Also looks promising. I'm still disturbed by the feeling that the Spurs would have picked him with the #1 pick.

    So assuming Primo pans out, the Spurs own track record with recent high picks is that they have a 50/50 success rate which isn't that great.

    Uh, you can trade DJ for a pick and a player, you know that, right? I see where you're coming from though. At the end of the day, I guess it depends on how high you are on Dejounte - if you feel like he has "many levels" of untapped potential, then yeah, selling off just to get an uncertain draft pick(s) doesn't sound like a good plan. If, like me, however, you think he's close to his ceiling, and you don't think his ceiling is what the team needs, it's suddenly not such a crazy idea.
    Sure, it would depend on the pick and the player of course. But I don't want to see this team turning a Daryl Morey team where players are traded willy nilly like cattle. It should be a difficult decision to trade someone that the team spent so much time developing and who was so loyal to the team, so it should only happen when a great opportunity arises (George Hill -> Kawhi Leonard is a good example). Just trading DJ for some other player + a pick to "improve value" seems pretty cold and I wouldn't do it personally.

  4. #379
    The St. Croix Boy duncan2k5's Avatar
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    Trade a young player that has positive impact simply because he isn't perfect? Lol... Yeah ok... In that case every player ever y'all would want to trade

  5. #380
    OH YOU LIKE IT!!! slick'81's Avatar
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    Leave Dejounte alone

  6. #381
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    Dejounte and even Jakob are the building blocks of the future, you can also add vassel and Keldon to the list.

    Dejounte at the moment is on first options, but i can say he is a solid 2nd option, he defiently needs to improve his efficiencyto take that next step. But, one he starts going to the free throw line more, you could also see the efficency go up, and he could easily average 20ppg.

  7. #382
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    I don't see the building blocks on this team that everyone else seems to see here. Vassell and Primo look like building blocks. Tre looks like he might make it into that category IF he can develop an outside shot (at least a TP midrange). DJ, DW, and Poeltl look like decent pieces that may or may not fit depending on what foundational pieces we can add and if they don't fit you move them for other pieces that fit better. KJ is so much of a tweener that he needs to really become a high level 3 pt shooter to fit and depending on how other GM's see him coming off Olympic gold he might have more value as a trade piece than as a player. LW...well...I'm not convinced he'll ever figure it out...

  8. #383
    Since 1979 Das Texan's Avatar
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    I don't believe the Spurs front office at this point in time is much better than other teams at making draft picks. Yes they do seem to make great late round picks, but their higher picks haven't been that great:

    Lonnie Walker IV: Not performing to expectations
    Luka Samanic: Cut
    Devin Vassell: Looks promising. But the jury's still out on whether Haliburton or someone else (Tyrese Maxey?) would have been better picks.
    Josh Primo: Also looks promising. I'm still disturbed by the feeling that the Spurs would have picked him with the #1 pick.

    So assuming Primo pans out, the Spurs own track record with recent high picks is that they have a 50/50 success rate which isn't that great.


    I wouldnt exactly call picks 18 and 19 as high picks, I mean when the Spurs were contending for les year in and year out, thats high but in terms of regular NBA teams, I wouldnt consider any non lottery pick as 'high' tbh.

  9. #384
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    I wouldnt exactly call picks 18 and 19 as high picks, I mean when the Spurs were contending for les year in and year out, thats high but in terms of regular NBA teams, I wouldnt consider any non lottery pick as 'high' tbh.
    Sure but those 2 have underperformed their draft slot, and were the first top 20 picks in a while. And it sort of reinforces my point about there not being much evidence regarding very high picks. The Spurs haven't had a top 10 pick in forever (Duncan?) so I don't think people should automatically assume that they have some magic evaluation powers when it comes to the top end of the draft. And even if they do, they can only pick from whomever's available at the slot they get.

    So for example, let's suppose the Spurs had the #5 pick last year. They could have ended up with one of:

    Jalen Suggs
    Josh Giddey
    Jonathan Kuminga
    Franz Wagner
    Davion Mitc
    Ziaire Williams
    James Bouknight
    Josh Primo

    I'm not sure that any of these guys are the future all-star that will get the Spurs back in championship contention. Even if they managed to pick the best one (which could be Primo), a weak draft year might mean that none of these guys will be future all-stars. It's hard to say right now, and it's also possible that someone the Spurs passed on (Sengun, Duarte, Moody, etc) could end up being the best of the bunch.

  10. #385
    Believe. MultiTroll's Avatar
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    Some other examples: I remember a few years ago everyone was anticipating trading Aldridge for the #2 pick and possibly picking James Wiseman with that pick. And now James Wiseman is looking like a bust.
    Was looking very good as a rookie before injury and now on path to recover. Bust?

    Muh Touches Softridge for Wiseman would have been a wise move.
    Holding on to LMA and then buying him out was pathetic and continued uber fail by PATFO.

  11. #386
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    Was looking very good as a rookie before injury and now on path to recover. Bust?

    Muh Touches Softridge for Wiseman would have been a wise move.
    Holding on to LMA and then buying him out was pathetic and continued uber fail by PATFO.

    Wise move? Sure, if you're the spurs. The warriors are glad they never touched that trade.

  12. #387
    Veteran tbdog's Avatar
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    Was looking very good as a rookie before injury and now on path to recover. Bust?

    Muh Touches Softridge for Wiseman would have been a wise move.
    Holding on to LMA and then buying him out was pathetic and continued uber fail by PATFO.
    No. Wiseman can't play in that heavy screen and motion Kerr's offense. Kerr had not adjusted his style for the roster and now they have a roster for his style again. Wiseman is a simple big and would do well in pick n roll style offense like the suns or the now spurs. I wouldn't be surprised if warriors ask for Poeltl, who suits the warriors perfectly. And they probably just attached Forbes in that deal.

  13. #388
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    Was looking very good as a rookie before injury and now on path to recover. Bust?
    From what I remember, he was their "Bryn Forbes", i.e. terrible on defense and a net negative whenever he played. But since he was a rookie it's not fair to label him a bust just yet. Let's just say he hasn't lived up to the amount of hype he was given.

  14. #389
    Dyna5ty BatManu20's Avatar
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    Bump.

  15. #390
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    I didn't want to rain on the parade yesterday and I'll admit under no cir stances did I think (and if they're being honest, most of the apologists likely felt the same) he'd ever be selected an All-Star, but let's not confuse that with his arrival as a certified star.

    There's plenty of random players who've been selected once or twice (or in DerRozan's case, five) because cir stances/narrative broke their way.

    I still have the same questions about his potential fit on a good team and think he's probably more of a floor (DeRozan, Vucevic, Sabonis, prime Westbrook, Wall, etc.) than ceiling raiser.

  16. #391
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    I didn't want to rain on the parade yesterday and I'll admit under no cir stances did I think (and if they're being honest, most of the apologists likely felt the same) he'd ever be selected an All-Star, but let's not confuse that with his arrival as a certified star.

    There's plenty of random players who've been selected once or twice (or in DerRozan's case, five) because cir stances/narrative broke their way.

    I still have the same questions about his potential fit on a good team and think he's probably more of a floor (DeRozan, Vucevic, Sabonis, prime Westbrook, Wall, etc.) than ceiling raiser.
    You could be right that he might only get this one time all-star selection or he could only be a floor raiser. However he has shown to work his socks off and improve year after year. As a fan of the team it is okay to celebrate when a player is recognised by the league regardless of our opinion of the player. Enjoy the hype and sort out the difference on another day. Cheers

  17. #392
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    I didn't want to rain on the parade yesterday
    As a fan of the team it is okay to celebrate when a player is recognised by the league regardless of our opinion of the player. Enjoy the hype and sort out the difference on another day. Cheers

  18. #393
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    When I said another day it does not mean to wait for one day, he was selected as an AS this season no need to keep ing on him. It's not even AS game yet.

  19. #394
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    TD21 trying his best to do some damage control

  20. #395
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    The point was and is, despite him admittedly being better than I thought, I stand by what I said because of the same old flaws.

  21. #396
    I needs six for my fix. UnWantedTheory's Avatar
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    TD21 trying his best to do some damage control
    I actually don't disagree with him. Murray has definitely improved and turned out better than most would have thought. However, he isn't a star and many of the same questions about him remain.

  22. #397
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    I actually don't disagree with him. Murray has definitely improved and turned out better than most would have thought. However, he isn't a star and many of the same questions about him remain.
    We should trade him for HOFer Andrew Wiggins.

  23. #398
    Veteran emanueldavidginobili's Avatar
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    I actually don't disagree with him. Murray has definitely improved and turned out better than most would have thought. However, he isn't a star and many of the same questions about him remain.
    What are those questions? Dude is playing with a sack of potatoes.

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