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  1. #101
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    the XXY, XYY, XXXY etc hermaphrodite cases would of course be listed as "other", say "X" at birth. In which case they are already born into the third category I've been talking about all along, and are therefore set for life in the third category of non-binary.

    Three categories
    (M) for life
    (F) for life
    (X) - Non binary, either at birth or changed sex/gender iden y at any point in life.
    you are failing to recognize the distinction between sex and gender

    the gender binary, as we have it in our society (there are places, such as in parts of asia, where they actually recognize 3 genders), refers to people who identify as a man or woman. that is their gender. that is separate and distinct from their sex (genitals/chromosomes).

    lockdowns notwithstanding, you probably see hundreds of people per day and can make educated guesses about whether those people are men or women without ever seeing their genitals or running a DNA test. gender is your iden y and how you express yourself to the world. if you identify as a man or woman, you by definition fall under the gender binary

  2. #102
    Enemy of the System Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    people also go to certain bathrooms because there's a level of comfort. i dont go to the men's bathroom because i'm afraid of getting raped by women.
    And because, well, there's a sign, and, illegal or not, it would just be socially awkward to go into the one labeled for females.

    The bottom line is that, bathrooms should be gender independent, because-

    -Men should not necessarily be uncomfortable by the presence of women or non-binaries in the bathroom,
    -Women should not necessarily be uncomfortable by the presence of men or non-binaries in the bathroom, and;
    -Non-binaries should not necessarily be uncomfortable by the presence of cis-men, cis-women, or other types of non-binaries in the bathroom.

    At the end of the day, human waste is human waste, and it's all headed for the sewer no matter the sex/gender of the human bodies that eliminated such waste; it breaks down and decomposes, and eventually its atoms and molecules are re-instated, little by little, back into nature in its due time.

  3. #103
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    And because, well, there's a sign, and, illegal or not, it would just be socially awkward to go into the one labeled for females.

    The bottom line is that, bathrooms should be gender independent, because-

    -Men should not necessarily be uncomfortable by the presence of women or non-binaries in the bathroom,
    -Women should not necessarily be uncomfortable by the presence of men or non-binaries in the bathroom, and;
    -Non-binaries should not necessarily be uncomfortable by the presence of cis-men, cis-women, or other types of non-binaries in the bathroom.

    At the end of the day, human waste is human waste, and it's all headed for the sewer no matter the sex/gender of the human bodies that eliminated such waste; it breaks down and decomposes, and eventually its atoms and molecules are re-instated, little by little, back into nature in its due time.
    you have a fundamental misunderstanding about the relationship between sex and gender.

    transgender =/= non-binary

    transgender = when your gender iden y does not correspond with the one which was assigned to you at birth due to your sex

    non-binary = when your gender does not fit under the man/woman paradigm

  4. #104
    Enemy of the System Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    women dont want to walk in and see dudes on urinals
    You obviously would engineer it to where the urinals were away, maybe by having a separate stall door or par ion for the urinals away from the front entrance, lol.

  5. #105
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    You obviously would engineer it to where the urinals were away, maybe by having a separate stall door or par ion for the urinals away from the front entrance, lol.
    why are you so opposed to the dual bathroom system? has it been problematic?

  6. #106
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    Yes they will make this a major part of their platform.
    This goes nowhere. Not during an election.
    Just like Trump did not want to talk about a more fundamental candidate characteristic, honesty.
    He has never said that word.

  7. #107
    Believe. MultiTroll's Avatar
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    OMGosh - all my good thoughts of Dirty Harry just became like thoughts of Bruce Jenner winning the decathalon.


    I already believe in God, so will not need to check out of the human race if Clint were to pull that . You neither please.
    Brucette Kardashian, while I didn't see full on tranny coming, you can more or less expect super weird to any bio males who choose to engage with those demonic kunts.

  8. #108
    Enemy of the System Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    why are you so opposed to the dual bathroom system? has it been problematic?
    Well, I work in IT..... and those curry-smelling Indians straight off the plane from India, they have not a clue regarding Proper U.S. urinal etiquette, but it's whatever I guess, just a pet peeve of mine.

  9. #109
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    the XXY, XYY, XXXY etc hermaphrodite cases would of course be listed as "other", say "X" at birth. In which case they are already born into the third category I've been talking about all along, and are therefore set for life in the third category of non-binary.

    Three categories
    (M) for life
    (F) for life
    (X) - Non binary, either at birth or changed sex/gender iden y at any point in life.
    If you really understand this:

    Genotype does not necessarily lead to a certain phenotype (which can be more than just a physical characteristic, it can be a behavior).
    Because you also understood genotype, not producing the expected phenotype is due to environmental influences.
    Mendelian genetics was a very valuable first step, but it has been expanded upon because it was way too simplistic as given above.

    And yes I think Mendel was one of the greatest thinkers because he was one of the first to put math and statistics to explain a biological phenomena that was extremely vexing. (Thus my name peagardn in his honor) In fact if Darwin had read him (Mendel had already published but was rediscovered in the early 1900s) it would have explained Darwin's frustration on where genetic biological diversity can arise from. Darwin always pointed the origin of diversity out as a weakness to his ideas on natural selection. He thought genetic diversity arose strictly from the environment. Mendel finding "genes" was huge.

    I know you like this stuff so Im giving it to you.

  10. #110
    Enemy of the System Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    If you really understand this:

    Genotype does not necessarily lead to a certain phenotype (which can be more than just a physical characteristic, it can be a behavior).
    Because you also understood genotype, not producing the expected phenotype is due to environmental influences.
    Mendelian genetics was a very valuable first step, but it has been expanded upon because it was way too simplistic as given above.

    And yes I think Mendel was one of the greatest thinkers because he was one of the first to put math and statistics to explain a biological phenomena that was extremely vexing. (Thus my name peagardn in his honor) In fact if Darwin had read him (Mendel had already published but was rediscovered in the early 1900s) it would have explained Darwin's frustration on where genetic biological diversity can arise from. Darwin always pointed the origin of diversity out as a weakness to his ideas on natural selection. He thought genetic diversity arose strictly from the environment. Mendel finding "genes" was huge.

    I know you like this stuff so Im giving it to you.
    correct, genotype is the cause/gene/brains/x variable, phenotype is the effect/dependent/y variable, like a physical characteristic or a behavior.

    High school Mendelian four-square genetics work great for a lot of things, especially binary things (are you or are you not wide-footed, or have a widow's peak, or be an achondroplasic dwarf or get Huntington's disease)? But it gets more complicated when you add more than two discrete outcomes to a given solution (eye color, hair color, etc) or a continuous outcome (hand/foot/brain/head/penis size; skin color) which are more polygenic than anything, meaning too many genes to count are added to a given solution of phenotype. Furthermore, there are other factors like sex-linked conditions such as colorblindness and mid-life balding, and even more that are spontaneously mutation-based and not explainable by Mendel (such as microcenphaly [tiny-head syndrome] linked to the Zika virus).

  11. #111
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    Conservatives love being afraid of things so much they make up things to be afraid of.

    It's the political equivalent of having a blow-up doll.

  12. #112
    900 DPH / Proud Narc
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    Some of us are reckx. Conservatives are really fighting this in 2020?

  13. #113
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    People are always going to be offended by . Why is it a woman's right to not see guys at urinals? I'm all for having individual bathrooms, because I'm not trying to stand or sit next to someone else taking a . I get so tired of this anti-male that gets paraded around as anti-trans bigotry. A man isn't going to start raping a woman just because he can hear her ting.

    "Oh my daughter tried her hardest but got second to a tranny". Shut the up. Let me know when she loses out on scholarships because a bunch of Lebrons in dresses stormed the compe ion. Until then, teach your daughter not to value herself based on a trophy. Stop telling your kids that the only way they can be validated in sports is if they win. Youth sports are already grossly unfair for so many reasons. I don't see why a person undergoing hormone therapy (which makes a big difference -- hence why juicing is a thing in the first place) shouldn't be able to compete wherever. I'm okay with the idea of having women's sports and then just sports and men and transwomen who haven't done the therapy can do the general category and cis-women and trans-women who've done the therapy can do the other one. I know that runs into the category of saying the men's group is the default, but 'em. If they want their own separate category, it's okay for it to be defined that way.

  14. #114
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    People are always going to be offended by . Why is it a woman's right to not see guys at urinals? I'm all for having individual bathrooms, because I'm not trying to stand or sit next to someone else taking a . I get so tired of this anti-male that gets paraded around as anti-trans bigotry. A man isn't going to start raping a woman just because he can hear her ting.

    "Oh my daughter tried her hardest but got second to a tranny". Shut the up. Let me know when she loses out on scholarships because a bunch of Lebrons in dresses stormed the compe ion. Until then, teach your daughter not to value herself based on a trophy. Stop telling your kids that the only way they can be validated in sports is if they win. Youth sports are already grossly unfair for so many reasons. I don't see why a person undergoing hormone therapy (which makes a big difference -- hence why juicing is a thing in the first place) shouldn't be able to compete wherever. I'm okay with the idea of having women's sports and then just sports and men and transwomen who haven't done the therapy can do the general category and cis-women and trans-women who've done the therapy can do the other one. I know that runs into the category of saying the men's group is the default, but 'em. If they want their own separate category, it's okay for it to be defined that way.
    So it's a civil rights issue that men and women be allowed to side by side?

  15. #115
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    I already believe in God, so will not need to check out of the human race if Clint were to pull that . You neither please.
    Brucette Kardashian, while I didn't see full on tranny coming, you can more or less expect super weird to any bio males who choose to engage with those demonic kunts.
    I have fond thoughts of growing up thinking what fine specimen of males Clint Eastwood and Bruce Jenner were - although my mother was shattered when she found out that Rock Hudson was gay. Now, I have no idea what girls think or re-think or ... and we won't even talk about these K-drama guys with their perfect hair/skin who look like I don't even know what you call them. It's like where are the REAL men?

  16. #116
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    People don’t just up and decide. I also recognize that the biology doesn’t disappear. see my post above
    They do decide to do something about it. Person X was living as a female for 20 years, but decides to transition. That's a decision. The psychological timelines aren't important to the discussion, the fact is this person was unable to compete against the opposite sex, suddenly they can. Where in your world view does this gender role change create a less problematic matchup for the sides?

  17. #117
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    You don’t have to speculate on what the pronoun should be. Pronouns are a shorthand of using somebody’s name. Somebody with a feminine name would be called she, etc.

    There are something like 150-200 trans ncaa athletes but naturally attention goes to the small handful that are excelling.

    at some point a lot of this stuff becomes arbitrary. Should they have made a separate black nba because they were too good for whites?
    They didn't?
    Should Lebron have been banned from high school ball because he was born with athletic advantages? The advantage lebron had over other boys far outweighed whatever advantage this June Eastwood person does.
    You said he cannot play in the WNBA because it would present problems. Why are you so squishy on this?
    If it can be demonstrated that trans athletes are ruining sports with any meaningful data we can discuss it. In the meantime this is a population with an astronomically high suicide rate where the single best way found to reduce that is strong support from family, showing that this is a a result of social stigma and their not being able to enjoy everyday experiences because they were unfortunate enough to be born with Genital that don’t comport with our socially invented set of expectations of personality and character for people with those genitals
    I think it's obvious by your stance that you have no skin in the game, meaning you don't have a daughter competing at the scholastic level and matching up against a she-man. You're looking at it through the lens of an attorney who would need to bull his way through court about it. The truth is you already illustrated you understand why someone like Lebron cannot play in the WNBA, but if he had a sex change suddenly he can. So you're saying that the sex change actually makes the person female when we know that's simply not true. It's bad science. Seems you don't have an issue with calling out bad science when it's about global warming, immunizations and other scientifically falsifiable claims. But because of hurt feelings, you think people should pretend a man who has surgery and hormone therapy is a woman. There's plenty who might sign off on it, but still never believe it.

    If you weren't married, would you date a tranny? If you say no, then you don't either.

  18. #118
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    They do decide to do something about it. Person X was living as a female for 20 years, but decides to transition. That's a decision. The psychological timelines aren't important to the discussion, the fact is this person was unable to compete against the opposite sex, suddenly they can. Where in your world view does this gender role change create a less problematic matchup for the sides?


    obviously they make a decision to transition. when i said they dont "up and decide" i meant its not some change they make on a whim overnight.

    i've already stated that i support timelines with hormone treatment before allowing them to compete

  19. #119
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    obviously they make a decision to transition. when i said they dont "up and decide" i meant its not some change they make on a whim overnight.

    i've already stated that i support timelines with hormone treatment before allowing them to compete
    You're the one who went all pedant on the topic with the "they don't decide" .

    Timelines are arbitrary. You're on a slippery slope by saying a male needs to have less male features and attributes to compete with females. You cannot offer any objective reasoning as to why that is, only the "fair play" concept which eventually ends up wrecking your argument.

  20. #120
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    you have a fundamental misunderstanding about the relationship between sex and gender.

    transgender =/= non-binary

    transgender = when your gender iden y does not correspond with the one which was assigned to you at birth due to your sex

    non-binary = when your gender does not fit under the man/woman paradigm
    I have no idea what all that means. When my kids were small, I sent my daughter in the women's bathroom alone and never worried. When my boys got old enough that they didn't want to go to the women's bathroom, I stood outside the men's bathroom and talked to them the entire time they were in there - of course, the men must have thought I was crazy but I didn't care. Oh, how times have changed...now, I guess I'd go with her every time.

  21. #121
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    i asked "should they" not "did they"

    You said he cannot play in the WNBA because it would present problems. Why are you so squishy on this?
    what am i being squishy about? im making the point that its ultimately arbitrary as to what cons utes such an inherent physical advantage that is so great that we need to separate leagues. currently we've set it at men and women (we also do by age... high schoolers dont play against college athletes, etc). i think that the divisions we've drawn have ultimately held up fine. i think we can accommodate trans people within that framework without the system falling apart

    I think it's obvious by your stance that you have no skin in the game, meaning you don't have a daughter competing at the scholastic level and matching up against a she-man. You're looking at it through the lens of an attorney who would need to bull his way through court about it. The truth is you already illustrated you understand why someone like Lebron cannot play in the WNBA, but if he had a sex change suddenly he can. So you're saying that the sex change actually makes the person female when we know that's simply not true. It's bad science. Seems you don't have an issue with calling out bad science when it's about global warming, immunizations and other scientifically falsifiable claims. But because of hurt feelings, you think people should pretend a man who has surgery and hormone therapy is a woman. There's plenty who might sign off on it, but still never believe it.
    my having or not having a daughter athlete is irrelevant, and you're just appealing to emotion with that. thats like saying men shouldnt discuss abortion rights, white people shouldnt talk about black issues, etc.

    i havent said anything about a sex change this entire conversation. i didnt say anything about a male becoming female, so your random anti-science rant has no weight. the science behind gender is there.

    If you weren't married, would you date a tranny? If you say no, then you don't either.
    no, i dont think i'd date a trans woman. im interested in having kids, so that would be a big issue. i'm also generally sexually attracted to females, so that would be problematic. so you can add them to the list of women i wouldnt be interested in when it comes to a romantic or sexual relationship. with that said, its possible, if not very probable, that i've seen women at bars or coffee shops, or on a school campus who i thought was good looking, and was in fact trans. i have no way of actually knowing.

    and people have used that "surprise" as a defense for assault claims... ie guy talks to girl at bar, they make out, turns out she has a , guy is confused/frustrated and beats her up, using the surprise element as a defense.

    this isn't about "pretending a man who has surgery and hormone therapy is a woman." a woman is somebody who identifies and presents themselves as a woman. that doesnt make them of the female sex.
    Last edited by spurraider21; 08-13-2020 at 06:18 PM.

  22. #122
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    I have no idea what all that means. When my kids were small, I sent my daughter in the women's bathroom alone and never worried. When my boys got old enough that they didn't want to go to the women's bathroom, I stood outside the men's bathroom and talked to them the entire time they were in there - of course, the men must have thought I was crazy but I didn't care. Oh, how times have changed...now, I guess I'd go with her every time.
    i noticed. thankfully your kids werent trans... having supportive parents is the #1 way to lower their suicidality rates. not sure they would have gotten that tbh
    Last edited by spurraider21; 08-13-2020 at 06:15 PM.

  23. #123
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    I couldnt care less about multigender bathrooms, but if a male athlete decides to identify as a female and compete against women that's ing wrong and 80% of the US agrees with me.

  24. #124
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    You're the one who went all pedant on the topic with the "they don't decide" .

    Timelines are arbitrary. You're on a slippery slope by saying a male needs to have less male features and attributes to compete with females. You cannot offer any objective reasoning as to why that is, only the "fair play" concept which eventually ends up wrecking your argument.
    i didnt say that people dont decide to transition. when i said "they dont up and decide im a woman now" i was pretty clear what i was referring to

  25. #125
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    I couldnt care less about multigender bathrooms, but if a male athlete decides to identify as a female and compete against women that's ing wrong and 80% of the US agrees with me.
    public support for moral validation hasnt always been the best indicator

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