official offseason thread

[Leetonidas]

RC officially stepped down as GM last offseason. Maybe unofficially he had turned over the reigns earlier, but from here on its Wright at the helms aka the mastermind behind the DeRozan deal.

Pop is still the POBO though, there's no way he wasn't involved in that trade tbh

[Robz4000]

Pop is still the POBO though, there's no way he wasn't involved in that trade tbh

I'm sure all three were tbh, but Wright is the one who has been called the engineer of it.

[ace3g]

Marc Stein @TheSteinLine
37m The push for a Christmas Day start to the 2020-21 NBA season, which would naturally please the league's TV partners, is gaining momentum, league sources say

[ace3g]

Shams Charania ShamsCharania
1m
The NBA is targeting Dec. 22 for the start of the 2020-21 season and a 72-game campaign that finishes before the ‘21 Olympics, sources tell @TheAthleticNBA @Stadium.



Shams Charania ShamsCharania
33s
Beginning 2020-21 around Christmas Day means return to semi-normal schedule, significant financial ramifications, potentially allowing stars to play in Olympics, sources say. Details on @TheAthleticNBA: theathletic.com/2157291/2020/1…

[LkrFan]

[Chinook]

I'd like to see it. If not official NBA games, at least have a winter league so the young guys can play. Wouldn't be the worst thing to have a bubble honestly. I think if they let players go home to celebrate Christmas with their families, they'd be opening themselves up to big COVID risks.

[NASpurs]

I enjoyed watching basketball in the middle of summer. ing NBA

[ace3g]

Player development coach


Shams Charania ShamsCharania
5m
Six-time All-Star Amar’e Stoudemire has agreed to a deal to join new Brooklyn Nets coach Steve Nash’s staff as an assistant coach, sources tell @TheAthleticNBA @Stadium. Nash and Stoudemire starred together in Phoenix.

[Dejounte]

Brooklyn Suns

[ace3g]

Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
2m
Sources: NBA and Board Governors continued discussion on call today about playing something resembling more of a baseball series to limit travel outside of bubble. For example, a team might travel to New York and play its two road games against Knicks and one vs. Nets.

[exstatic]

RC officially stepped down as GM last offseason. Maybe unofficially he had turned over the reigns earlier, but from here on its Wright at the helms aka the mastermind behind the DeRozan deal.

DeRozan deal was in 2017, which is why I included most of the youngsters. I figured that Wright was doing most of the job if he was doing major deals.

[Collins21]

Feel like you read enough to have a sense of what I mean, and you were around long enough to have been here during the Leonard trade. You should know empirically that Leonard's trade value was because he was injured (and hamming that up) and said he wouldn't re-sign. DMDR by contrast had three years left of team control, was a relative iron man and was seen as the best player on a consistent playoff team. Yes, he had flaws, but he wasn't the type of player just anyone had. Most of the best offers were from teams in the East, and I could imagine Toronto didn't want to send DeMar there, and there was a rumor they were looking for a top-10 pick in the draft. My assumption is that the Spurs were looking to acquire DeRozan to add to Leoanrd and Aldridge using 18, Green and Gasol and probably some other incentive. That's an overpayment in my book, but an offer like that from SA is probably why the LA teams weren't able to get DeRozan in a trade either. That Spurs offer is probably comparable or better than the other offers like including Deng.

I think DeRozan still has more value than people realize, but he certain did have a decent amount back then, warts and all, and it's not hard to see Kawhi's value being lower than a lot of players who aren't as good as him because of the Lakers' tampering.

That's exactly what was going to happen. Most people fail to realize that DeRozan was going to be a spur even if they kept Kawhi. He was the other All Star that Pop promised him that he would acquire to make the team better. The problem here is that you have people on this site that ignore logic and like to twist things to suit some weird view they have of the events that occurred.

[talkspurs]

Never heard of DDR coming here except for the trade. When was all this speculation about him coming here. Never heard of teh Spurs offering a draft pick for him.

[r0drig0lac]

That's exactly what was going to happen. Most people fail to realize that DeRozan was going to be a spur even if they kept Kawhi. He was the other All Star that Pop promised him that he would acquire to make the team better. The problem here is that you have people on this site that ignore logic and like to twist things to suit some weird view they have of the events that occurred.

link?

[Collins21]

link?

It was a report in the San Antonio express News around that time that stated that Pop talked to Kawhi and promised him to acquire him another All Star to convince him to stay I think it came out a day before he requested a trade I'll try to find it.

[Seventyniner]

Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
2m
Sources: NBA and Board Governors continued discussion on call today about playing something resembling more of a baseball series to limit travel outside of bubble. For example, a team might travel to New York and play its two road games against Knicks and one vs. Nets.

The league should have been doing this all along anyway. There is no need to make a bunch of small road trips. Fewer, longer trips would reduce travel by a ton.

[Drom John]

Tanking. Because of the flattening of the draft there is more incentive to tank. Tanking for the 2nd or 3rd worst record is an easier target.

White as only young top 100? I'd add Poeltl who is younger than White. (Hmm, so is Lyles! though not top 100.)
FiveThirtyRaptor WAR:
38T Jarrett Allen, Eric Bledsoe, Ben Simmons, Derrick White
50T Joe Ingles, Patty Mills, Christian Wood
77T Derrick Favors, Wesley Matthews, Jakob Poeltl
89T Jae Crowder, DeMar DeRozan, Aaron Holiday, JaVale McGee
122T LaMarcus Aldridge, Jalen Brunson, Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Brandon Clarke, Seth Curry, Furkan Korkmaz, Kevin Love, Elfrid Payton
150T Tony Bradley, Mike Conley, Rudy Gay, Myles Turner
154T Dillon Brooks, Willie Cauley-Stein, Luguentz Dort, Aaron Gordon, Kyrie Irving, DeAndre Jordan, Timothe Luwawu-Cabarrot, Dejounte Murray, Nerlens Noel, Kendrick Nunn
239T J.J. Barea, Chris Chiozza, Wayne Ellington, Yogi Ferrell, Jerami Grant, Juancho Hernangomez, Keldon Johnson, Mike Muscala, Josh Okogie, Otto Porter, Jr., Austin Rivers, JaKarr Sampson, Cody Zeller
291T Kadeem Allen, Jordan Bell, DeMarre Carroll, Dewayne Dedmon, Dante Exum, Tim Frazier, Wenyen Gabriel, Daniel Gafford, Isaiah Hartenstein, Mfiondu Kabengele, Meyers Leonard, Trey Lyles, Terance Mann, Adam Mokoka, Juwan Morgan, Mychal Mulder, Frank Ntilikina, Coby White, Justise Winslow
325T Al-Farouq Aminu, Justin Anderson, Marques Bolden, Corey Brewer, Wendell Carter Jr., Nicolas Claxton, Jamal Crawford, Henry Ellenson, Dusty Hannahs, Dewan Hernandez, Jaylen Hoard, Talen Horton-Tucker, Justin James, DaQuan Jeffries, James Johnson, Frank Kaminsky, Jake Layman, Josh Magette, Eric Mika, Matt Mooney, Markieff Morris, Johnathan Motley, Dzana Musa, Kyle O'Quinn, Miye Oni, Luka Semanic, Alen Smailagic, Ish Smith, Max Strus, Sindarius Thornwell, Anthony Tolliver, Juan Toscano-Anderson
359T Jarrod Uthoff, Nigel Williams-Goss, Tyler Zeller

That's 361 players with #361 defining "replacement level." IOW, WAR is a calculation of how many wins a player contributes compared Tyler Zeller..

Below replacement level, only listing the Spur with two adjacent alphabetical order players

391T Thon Maker, Chimezie Metu, Luc Mbah a Moute
430T Antonius Cleveland, Drew Eubanks, Treveon Graham
452T Marco Belinelli, Jordan Bone ... Evan Turner, Lonnie Walker IV, P.J. Washington, Quindarry Weatherspoon, Johnathan Williams
479T Quinn Cook, Bryn Forbes, Marko Guduric

Worst 5 NBAers

526 Isaiah Thomas
527 Rui Hachimura
528 Anfernee Simons
529 Sekou Doumbaya
530 Darius Garland

[Dejounte]

Nobody intentionally tanks these days

If you do, you're a loser organization

Influencing your players to tank causes irreparable damage.

Think of the culture of the team. It's like trying to tell a chained elephant to move.

Holy , I never liked Hachimura but that list is pretty damning for him. Goes to show lots of people on ST can be very wrong about prospects, especially when they fall for the hype. Rui looked good on paper in the same manner as Vassell, but look how much of a garbage player he is.

[exstatic]

You've admitted you don't really follow the league much outside of the Spurs, so take it from someone who does: The two teams had similar metrics, only the Kings best player/young talents missed significant amount of time, while the Spurs were mostly healthy. The Trail Blazers also had significant injuries. By the way, you brought up the Kings.

So now reports on the Spurs are credible if they support your argument. I wasn't even talking about them, just in general Gilgeous-Alexander was projected to go in the range he did.

DeRozan has less value than even that version of S bag did and I don't recall hearing of teams calling the Spurs about him immediately. No, the Raptors did that because the Spurs allowed them to. Sans Anunoby, they should have drawn the line at Gasol instead of gifting them Green.

I'm not thinking anything genius, I'm saying it's possible things would have played out differently. You're the one married to a certain scenario which again conveniently suits your argument.

Like I said, Johnson becoming a significant piece doesn't absolve them in the same way (Marc) Gasol didn't absolve the Grizzlies gifting the Lakers his brother because of the unlikelihood of landing such a piece at that stage of the draft. That's revisionist history and luck more than anything. They never had a chance to go for it. The fact that you thought this team could contend is bizarre.

Spurs youngsters were mostly healthy? What color is the sky on your world? DJ missed an entire season with an ACL tear, and Lonnie’s rookie year was derailed by meniscus damage, being limited to a score of games in Austin. Derrick has had repeated foot problems, causing him to miss time every season.

[Drom John]

Nobody intentionally tanks these days

If you do, you're a loser organization

Influencing your players to tank causes irreparable damage.

Think of the culture of the team. It's like trying to tell a chained elephant to move.

Holy , I never liked Hachimura but that list is pretty damning for him. Goes to show lots of people on ST can be very wrong about prospects, especially when they fall for the hype. Rui looked good on paper in the same manner as Vassell, but look how much of a garbage player he is.

Agree on tanking. I think it only makes sense for the last game of the year, and it changes a draft pick trade exception. The Warriors tanking for Harrison Barnes made some sense at the time. Harrison Barnes is a good argument for not tanking.

I never liked Hachimura, but that's because he looked bad on paper, unlike teammate Thybulle. Hachimura looked great on film.

[TD 21]

Feel like you read enough to have a sense of what I mean, and you were around long enough to have been here during the Leonard trade. You should know empirically that Leonard's trade value was because he was injured (and hamming that up) and said he wouldn't re-sign. DMDR by contrast had three years left of team control, was a relative iron man and was seen as the best player on a consistent playoff team. Yes, he had flaws, but he wasn't the type of player just anyone had. Most of the best offers were from teams in the East, and I could imagine Toronto didn't want to send DeMar there, and there was a rumor they were looking for a top-10 pick in the draft. My assumption is that the Spurs were looking to acquire DeRozan to add to Leoanrd and Aldridge using 18, Green and Gasol and probably some other incentive. That's an overpayment in my book, but an offer like that from SA is probably why the LA teams weren't able to get DeRozan in a trade either. That Spurs offer is probably comparable or better than the other offers like including Deng.

I think DeRozan still has more value than people realize, but he certain did have a decent amount back then, warts and all, and it's not hard to see Kawhi's value being lower than a lot of players who aren't as good as him because of the Lakers' tampering.

- DeRozan was not seen as the best player on the Raptors. That's like saying Parker was seen as better than Ginobili because of greater usage/ppg.

- He had limited value to the point where the off season prior, they offered him for Wiggins' albatross and were turned down. They'd been shopping him for 2 years before they found a sucker, who not only took him, but gave them a superstar, elite role player, cash and a Curry/Durant injury away from a championship.

- I hope he's traded for a myriad of reasons, one of which is to enlighten you and many Spurs fans on how limited his value is.

That's exactly what was going to happen. Most people fail to realize that DeRozan was going to be a spur even if they kept Kawhi. He was the other All Star that Pop promised him that he would acquire to make the team better. The problem here is that you have people on this site that ignore logic and like to twist things to suit some weird view they have of the events that occurred.

Based on what? All speculation. I doubt they'd have taken on a third major salary and a player who can only play on ball, which would have forced S bag and Aldridge into more off ball roles (I'm sure that would have gone over well with them).

They may have tried (I suspect they would have), but probably failed. My guess is Walker would have been the target.

Spurs youngsters were mostly healthy? What color is the sky on your world? DJ missed an entire season with an ACL tear, and Lonnie’s rookie year was derailed by meniscus damage, being limited to a score of games in Austin. Derrick has had repeated foot problems, causing him to miss time every season.

Poor reading comprehension 101: I said last season, the Spurs had among the most continuity and best health in the league and they still sucked.

All you apologists are so eager to criticize that you don't even take the time to read/comprehend what I actually said.

[Dejounte]

Agree on tanking. I think it only makes sense for the last game of the year, and it changes a draft pick trade exception. The Warriors tanking for Harrison Barnes made some sense at the time. Harrison Barnes is a good argument for not tanking.

I never liked Hachimura, but that's because he looked bad on paper, unlike teammate Thybulle. Hachimura looked great on film.

When I said on paper for Hachi, I meant more his measurements-- they were a decent for a SF. But I guess on film, people busted their nut because he shot the mid-range J kinda like Nephew...ignoring the fact that he was wildly inefficient. People were desperate to replace Kawhi (still are) and will go gaga over any player that has any semblance to him. Rui is a garbage man's Kawhi.

[Chinook]

You've admitted you don't really follow the league much outside of the Spurs, so take it from someone who does: The two teams had similar metrics, only the Kings best player/young talents missed significant amount of time, while the Spurs were mostly healthy. The Trail Blazers also had significant injuries. By the way, you brought up the Kings.

They don't really have similar metrics outside of both missing the playoffs though. I feel bad even having to defend this point, because it's clear you're not looking at anything else but want to come off like you do. The Spurs were a good offense and bad defense. The Kings were a bad offense and mediocre defense. The Spurs played bad defenders like Forbes and Beli and could easily improve defensively if they just didn't play those guys. The Kings don't have the same recourse because guys like Fox, Hield and Barnes are their bad defenders. They're going to be stuck playing mediocre defense unless they get designated defenders, and besides Fox, they don't expect to be led by any young players. I haven't given up on Bagley, but he was arguably a net-negative coming off a missed season. But there's no reason to see the Kings coming out of dregs because their holes are fundamental, not situational.

So now reports on the Spurs are credible if they support your argument. I wasn't even talking about them, just in general Gilgeous-Alexander was projected to go in the range he did.

Are you confusing me with someone else? When did I say the reports weren't credible before? Hindsight is arguing that the Spurs would've taken him, not that he was going to go at that pick. Seeing as the guy the Spurs picked and were rumored to want was also there, it stands to reason to believe the Spurs would not have passed on him to pick SGA.

DeRozan has less value than even that version of S bag did and I don't recall hearing of teams calling the Spurs about him immediately. No, the Raptors did that because the Spurs allowed them to. Sans Anunoby, they should have drawn the line at Gasol instead of gifting them Green.

It was a thing that other teams wanted DeRozan. But I'm not going to keep rehashing the Leonard trade with you. You want to show you're the maddest person about it. Fine. I think it's more constructive to believe that everyone is basically rational and trying to act for their interests though. Pop/Wright probably had good reasons for liking Toronto's package beyond them just being dumb or gullible. Doesn't mean I liked the deal. You of all people should know I didn't.

I'm not thinking anything genius,

I know.

Like I said, Johnson becoming a significant piece doesn't absolve them in the same way (Marc) Gasol didn't absolve the Grizzlies gifting the Lakers his brother because of the unlikelihood of landing such a piece at that stage of the draft. That's revisionist history and luck more than anything. They never had a chance to go for it. The fact that you thought this team could contend is bizarre.

I mean, it does though? Like yeah, a bad deal is a bad deal, but if the idea is that they should've tanked to get good young players instead of trying to compete, and they managed to try to compete and still got good young players, it does provide counter evidence. I don't love how they played the 2019 draft, but I also don't think the last couple of years clearly show that they would've been in a better position had they not taken that deal. I like fanficking off-seasons too, and I do think there were paths to having a better roster. But I also think they had and have paths to building a better win-now roster. That doesn't mean one scenario was the better choice.

[Chinook]

- DeRozan was not seen as the best player on the Raptors.

Yeah he was. He wasn't the best player on the Raptors, but that was his rep.

- He had limited value to the point where the off season prior, they offered him for Wiggins' albatross and were turned down. They'd been shopping him for 2 years before they found a sucker, who not only took him, but gave them a superstar, elite role player, cash and a Curry/Durant injury away from a championship.

The Wolves also balked at trading Wiggins for Butler, so I wouldn't take that as some sign of DeRozan having bad value. Remember that Minny literally just maxed the dude that year, so it's not like they didn't like him.

- I hope he's traded for a myriad of reasons, one of which is to enlighten you and many Spurs fans on how limited his value is.

Why would he be traded not no value though? How does that help SA? Even if he's traded for a paltry return like a late-first from LAL, that doesn't say anything against his value two years ago. That's a decent return from an expiring player to whom you're doing a favor. No one is arguing DeMar is going to get a high pick or even that he would've gotten one then. But he would've definitely garnered a lottery pick in 2018, to the point that the Spurs probably would not have been able to trade for DeRozan with the packages from the other teams, though maybe the Saric/Cov/10 package would've worked if it were truly on the table.

[TD 21]

They don't really have similar metrics outside of both missing the playoffs though. I feel bad even having to defend this point, because it's clear you're not looking at anything else but want to come off like you do. The Spurs were a good offense and bad defense. The Kings were a bad offense and mediocre defense. The Spurs played bad defenders like Forbes and Beli and could easily improve defensively if they just didn't play those guys. The Kings don't have the same recourse because guys like Fox, Hield and Barnes are their bad defenders. They're going to be stuck playing mediocre defense unless they get designated defenders, and besides Fox, they don't expect to be led by any young players. I haven't given up on Bagley, but he was arguably a net-negative coming off a missed season. But there's no reason to see the Kings coming out of dregs because their holes are fundamental, not situational.



Are you confusing me with someone else? When did I say the reports weren't credible before? Hindsight is arguing that the Spurs would've taken him, not that he was going to go at that pick. Seeing as the guy the Spurs picked and were rumored to want was also there, it stands to reason to believe the Spurs would not have passed on him to pick SGA.



It was a thing that other teams wanted DeRozan. But I'm not going to keep rehashing the Leonard trade with you. You want to show you're the maddest person about it. Fine. I think it's more constructive to believe that everyone is basically rational and trying to act for their interests though. Pop/Wright probably had good reasons for liking Toronto's package beyond them just being dumb or gullible. Doesn't mean I liked the deal. You of all people should know I didn't.



I know.



I mean, it does though? Like yeah, a bad deal is a bad deal, but if the idea is that they should've tanked to get good young players instead of trying to compete, and they managed to try to compete and still got good young players, it does provide counter evidence. I don't love how they played the 2019 draft, but I also don't think the last couple of years clearly show that they would've been in a better position had they not taken that deal. I like fanficking off-seasons too, and I do think there were paths to having a better roster. But I also think they had and have paths to building a better win-now roster. That doesn't mean one scenario was the better choice.

They do. Spurs were 17th in SRS, Kings 21st (.73 differential), 33-38 in expected w-l vs 31-41, 18th in MOV vs 21st (.93 differential) and again, they were far more decimated by injury. As usual, it's clear that you're just being a homer and pretending to know more about the league than you actually do and now you're again moving the goal posts by talking about the future. I'm talking about last season to right now.

I've seen you talk about taking reports on the Spurs with a grain a salt (which is generally true). Well, that wasn't the hindsight I was talking about.

Was it "a thing"? You want to show that you're the smartest guy in the room by attempting to talk down to people without actually knowing what you're talking about.

Compete for what? No, it doesn't absolve them because your should judge a trade based on the process, not the result. Only a casual, homer, apologists or some combination there of could attempt to defend that trade.

Yeah he was. He wasn't the best player on the Raptors, but that was his rep.



The Wolves also balked at trading Wiggins for Butler, so I wouldn't take that as some sign of DeRozan having bad value. Remember that Minny literally just maxed the dude that year, so it's not like they didn't like him.



Why would he be traded not no value though? How does that help SA? Even if he's traded for a paltry return like a late-first from LAL, that doesn't say anything against his value two years ago. That's a decent return from an expiring player to whom you're doing a favor. No one is arguing DeMar is going to get a high pick or even that he would've gotten one then. But he would've definitely garnered a lottery pick in 2018, to the point that the Spurs probably would not have been able to trade for DeRozan with the packages from the other teams, though maybe the Saric/Cov/10 package would've worked if it were truly on the table.

Only to casuals.

The difference was, that was back when they were still holding out hope for Wiggins. Some of the most connected people in the industry have said DeRozan has little value and it's obvious to anyone who really follows this, but you know better.

Because he could leave for nothing in a year and no, he wouldn't have garnered a lottery pick in '18 just like Aldridge, a better player, couldn't garner a top 10 pick in '17.