For those confused as i was before , Pat is a 4 can only guard 4's has potential to guard 3's with some body improvements but unlikely. Most likely his best position in the NBA is a 4.
I attribute Pat's passiveness to being a freshman and Florida State having a system set up like the Spurs. Watching Pat on that team is like watching Derrick (or any other intelligent rookie) in his 1st year on the Spurs: learning the ropes, learning where his spots are, not wanting to step on anybody's toes including the vets, wanting to please the coach by playing the right way, etc.
Regarding Vassell, the context matters, maybe ill go to more detail later but the summary is this:
Poor Kobe-like shot selection, will settle for an awkward long 2 when he has dribbled himself into a defender,
has poor understanding of spacing - has more of a tendency to look for the ball than try to create space for the ball handler
his aggressiveness is due to him being possibly being assigned the team's captain and it being his 2nd year - he knows the system and he's earned his coach's trust,
His defense is tailor made for college, where there's a lot of poor ball handlers and a lot of passing. He gambles for steals a lot and is good at weakside blocking - two strengths that will not be easy to translate to the NBA. Its the same manner with Dejounte.
His good defense was mainly against smaller players. Ive barely seen him guard standard size forwards in college from all the tape ive seen. If we are going to get a "SF" of the future, we need him to be able to guard his own position rather than guard the 1 and 2 otherwise we have another Bryn Forbes situation.
His size. It looks more like 6'6". Expecting players to bulk up easily isnt wise. Its a rare occurrence.
Basically you're seeing the tale of two coins: a Dejounte Murray type defender in Vassell, or a Derrick White type defender in Pat (he has a longer way to go)
Last edited by Dejounte; 08-24-2020 at 07:07 AM.
For those confused as i was before , Pat is a 4 can only guard 4's has potential to guard 3's with some body improvements but unlikely. Most likely his best position in the NBA is a 4.
Sugus
@4:11 he has a lot of possessions like this where you ask "where is he dribbling to?" And ends up going towards his own teammate and passing it off or takes an awkward shot right there
Another Devin signature ugly possession at 22:35
Hmmm I see what you mean. But I just don't know up to what point we can expect PatWill to "turn it up a notch" if he's been so passive (I assume it's been the same in other games?) on offense thus far. I think sometimes it's cases like you describe, just a player lacking confidence/not being used to a system and stuff, but other times it's cases like Lonnie (not saying the jury is out on him yet, just what he's been showing so far) where they have the physical tools and the game, but can never get out of their own head and assert their will on the court, always tip-toeing and happy to "wait for it" on the corner or 3pt line without doing much. While Vassell, though flawed, played with much more energy and intensity, not only in regards to steals/shots but also the energy he put out on the court overall.
I'll have to watch a few more games of Williams, but right now I'm kind of seeing last year's White. Can he eventually progress to Bubble White? Possibly... Though I'm feeling like it's as much of a long shot as Vassell putting on the muscle to succeed at guarding 3's in the NBA. Both prospects have their flaws.
E: I'd also say that (in regards to the Dejounte/White comparison), while I see the comp between Vassell and DJ (and hope it doesn't turn into the same failure story), I don't really see the comp of PatWill and White. Whenever I'm watching White, he always seems to be an energy ball on defense, constantly shuffling his feet and position and pushing over the defender to go where he wants him to go. PatWill has good pressure (as I pointed out from the last video, that 10 sec violation was all him), but I just don't see him being as active when he has to defend man-to-man. Moreover, he tends to sag off his man to play the rim defender role, which is fine in college especially given his size advantage but could be exploited in the NBA. White is much smarter in that regard, tends to go for offensive fouls which is brilliant in this day and age (I think he leads all guards in charges drawn or something like that). I *could* see PatWill develop into something like White, but it would take an impressive turn up of his motor, which from the footage I've seen doesn't look too likely. If you have a particular game where he was aggressive and seeking his own on both ends of the floor, I'd love to see it.
Last edited by Sugus; 08-24-2020 at 12:15 PM.
Haha, for sure Kobe-like, without the game to make up for it... Yet. To be honest though, I don't see that kind of decision-making blunders as something that can't be fixed: I see the physical tools are there, he can penetrate and dribble, his shot doesn't look mechanically bad, and he's got a confidence to his game that, beyond the mistakes, is eye-popping. I could see with NBA coaching that he betters his decision making, especially those dribble -> long 2's that he seems to do, because that's just not the way the NBA game is played anymore.
I'm kind of torn here, to be honest. PatWill seems like the more "ready vessel" where he has more physical prowess, and maybe sounder fundamentals, but would have to be taught everything from screening (I don't think I saw him in a P&R set in the game I watched yesterday at all, he seemed to prefer standing out on the perimeter, even though he hesitated on shooting on the rare occasion he did get the ball) to being aggressive on offense, which I have my doubts that can be taught, especially after seeing someone like Keldon as opposed to someone like Lonnie. Whereas Vassell, you would have to cut out his bad habits and work on his playmaking, but his intensity, hustle, and grit are already there, just needs some polishing. I don't know if he can defend larger players (I'd be just fine if he held his own at his position) and his D and spacing awareness need work, but it's a different story than PatWill.
Overall, I'd say I'd be fine with both prospects, to be honest. I can see each of them fail on the NBA level for the flaws aforementioned, just as I could see an organization like the Spurs successfully developing them. It's not a case where I absolutely don't think either will make it, and I for sure would prefer drafting either of them over, for example, Killian Hayes, who doesn't have a different level of talent to me and isn't a position of need.
Sugus
Your concerns are valid. I think the difference between the two for me is if I knew nothing about either player and there was an alternate reality #1 where they drafted Devin and an alternate reality #2 where they drafted Pat, I could see myself being more excited about reality #2 because Pat reaching his peak feels more special (because of his size) than Devin reaching his. Whoever the Spurs draft, I'll support no matter what.
I can fill in a little here. Vassell was a bigger part of the FSU offense and more aggressive with his shot because of experience. Kevin O'Connor tweeted back in April that Vassell hit one dribble jumper as a freshman then 39 as a sop re after improving his handle.
And I posted something about Williams and his assertiveness back in May. Basically, Vassell led FSU in scoring and FGA, and it's worth noting that FSU really spread it around.
Vassell did miss one game that Williams played in, vs Syracuse. And in that game, Williams came off the bench and led FSU in FGA with 14 (his season high), led the team in points with 17 (his major-conference high), tied his season high in minutes, 32 off the bench. When the opportunity was there to step up, he did.
I have no doubt in my mind that if he went back to school he'd be getting a lot more shot opportunities.
While he did fine there, and as pointed out elsewhere can do a lot as far as pressuring and causing violations, my ultimate point is that I'd still rather have White or Murray or maybe Keldon/Lonnie check smaller ballhandlers. I want Williams for the bigger guys. And as a comparison, I do think Okoro, who of course is smaller, does a better job against point guards as far as moving his feet and mirroring. But he's nearly point guard size himself, so he should
Thanks for pointing this out. This part about Vassell is good to keep in mind for everyone about college ballhandling and shots, something I tend to forget sometimes.
Lots of bad dribbling and whack shots in college, probably why in conjunction with size and speed differences that a lot of monster block and steal %s in college drastically reduce in the NBA, even for good defenders.
Hmm that's some interesting info, sad that he only got the opportunity to step up in one game only, but I see where you're coming from. To be honest, I still think a part of "stepping up" in the sense of making your presence felt on the court, shouldn't have to be reliant on a player being the focus of the offense or not; good players (especially players that aren't necessarily drafted with the projection of becoming stars, but more role-player like) should be focusing on doing their things and trying to make the most of possessions on both sides of the ball, even if they're not getting the ball in their hands or having plays called for them, which I didn't see Pat try to capitalize on (albeit in the short time I watched him). He seemed far too content to play the spot-up shooter in the corner role, which we don't really need any more of, but did more solidly on the defensive end.
After watching some additional tape on Achiuwa, though (and I don't want to derail PatWill's draft thread on Precious, I'm just saying), I feel like there's a marked difference in the way both players approach the offensive game. I don't see PW as a player who'll be able to create many shots for himself or others, to me his potential looks to be more of a finisher, but Achiuwa looks much more comfortable handling the ball and putting some pace on whilst bringing the ball up the court, which is a major difference and upgrade even if PA never turns into a proper playmaker. I'm leaning more towards him because of it, since they seem to be about equal in other areas, though I'd be content with both and am confident one of them (or even both) will be available by the time the Spurs are picking.
First, you derail this thread with Vassell. Next, you derail this thread with Precious! Tsk tsk (busting your balls)
with Williams ... not making a 100% guaranteed comp, but Kawhi Leonard had plenty of moments his first few years in the league where he was just 'waiting in the corner' or letting the game come to him. He didn't go grab the ball from Parker, Pop had to jump up and down and yell at Parker. Kawhi did almost nothing in the first 2 games of the 2014 finals that had the fans and media getting on his ass. Kawhi was so into filling his role as requested, that when a buffoonish ejection coach Boylen completely forgot to sub Kawhi back intot he second half of a game, that Kawhi didn't get in his face and demand to get back in and instead just sat on the bench waiting to be called. And if an uncle wants Kawhi to do something ... well, you can see where I'm going.
So I am not put off by Williams accepting his role, including accepting a bench role. That to me is being coachable. The team had it's hierarchy and it's system and Williams was the 18 year old freshman who went there to learn and improve. When he had the opportunity to step in and step up, he did. That's good enough for me.
Also Williams usage % was the second highest on the entire Florida State team. Higher than Vassell's. I don't know where this perception that he was a passive by-stander while Devin was an agressive go-getter comes from.
Good post. Hopefully other prospects see Number Two's career progression with the Spurs and are willing to take a couple of years to put everything together and then having that "aha!" moment, rather than expecting to start and get lots of minutes immediately.
I didn't watch early-career Giannis, but his stats in the first two years were pedestrian as well. Worse than Number Two's in fact.
I'm not gonna lie, I see your point, but to me it doesn't translate to every prospect. Kawhi, for as much of a as he is, is also an incredible player and talent, and I wouldn't assume that just because Kawhi particularly was initially hesitant at "taking the reigns" and slowly developed his role, that every player that does it is on a similar trajectory or close to it. From the admittedly not much of PW that I've seen, he gives off that rookie Kawhi vibe you're talking about, but I'm not confident the true "Kawhi" part about transforming into a complete & elite player is there. To me it's just like looking at any lanky young prospect and going "well, if he fills out like Giannis did, you got a superstar there..." which while true, is much more often a miss than a hit. There's only one Giannis, and I don't recall many players on Kawhi's trajectory (and who managed to reach such a ceiling from where they were pre-draft).
So it's a big maybe for me. I will say though, that I don't dislike PW at all, even though I've been critical of him here; my personal board goes something like Achiuwa -> PW -> Okoro -> Pokusevski -> Vassell/Hayes/other. Of course, mentioning only the prospects likely to be there at #11, though I am holding out hope for a draft day trade.
Lots of good info here. I’d add that the same foresight, eye for talent and player development program that chose and developed Kawhi is still likely in the organization. If there’s a gem available at 11, they will get him. Though it is more likely that they have to take more of a calculated guess with this particular draft. If they take PW, they truly see something special there. Only how many weeks left?!?!
Not really. Budenholzer wanted Kawhi and Chad Forcier developed him together with Chip. They both not here anymore
He's the CDR of this year. Even though his height works in the modern NBA he probably won't make it due to lack of IQ/NBA level skills.
Passiveness is probably due to this: "Game moves a little too quick for him at times", That's what pop always say regarding Lonnie, he's one of the youngest players in the draft so it's not that bad. Scouts think his potential is through the roof, with his defensive instincts, offensive baseline and frame that can probably make him one of the strongest players in his position if he fills out.
Just send him to the Spurs' length coach... he'll be fine.
I don't know if most of you watched him play. TIMVP calls him an anemic rebounder. He was almost a non-rebounder. He picked up boards because he was 6'8" and playing against college compe ion, off the bench. Mostly he just fielded what came his way. He had a good game against a short-handed UNC team, but other than that he didn't do much of anything to stand out all year. To me he looks lazy.
Edit: I just did a quick check. Half his rebounds were offensive. I can tell you it's not because he was in there rooting for them. If the Spurs were to spend #11 on this guy, there would be an epic meltdown by mid-season.
Forcier was a big loss. A lot more could be said about that, but I won't.
18 yrs old..........enough said! Hasn’t even stop physically developing yet
Enough said? Well sheeit! Sign him. He's 18 and that's all that needs to be said. The Spurs best draft pick since 1997, so pick a guy who's not ready and nobody thinks has superstar upside. Because he's 18.
You must be sharing this account, because one person couldn't come up with this much stupid.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)