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  1. #101
    Believe. MultiTroll's Avatar
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    Are you making some of these names up?

  2. #102
    Big Body look_at_g_shred's Avatar
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    Have never been sold on him. I'd be really disappointed if we drafted him.

  3. #103
    Veteran gambit1990's Avatar
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    his name is spurs material.

  4. #104
    Veteran playblair's Avatar
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    Have never been sold on him. I'd be really disappointed if we drafted him.
    you dont watch college basketball then.........

  5. #105
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    It'd be insane to be upset about drafting Toppin at 11.

  6. #106
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    Maybe the Hornets draft him at #3.

  7. #107
    The St. Croix Boy duncan2k5's Avatar
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    Aren't Toppin and Poeltl somewhat redundant on offense? Without a respectable jumper, where does Poeltl space to in order to allow Toppin room to roll to the rim?

    White/Walker/Johnson/Toppin/Aldridge would be far better imo. If giving up DeRozan can get the Spurs far enough up the draft board to get Toppin then that lineup can happen.
    AD played with Howard or McGee at center the entire season and still had plenty of time runs

  8. #108
    Veteran R. DeMurre's Avatar
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    Brandon Clarke's advanced stats from his last season in college are so much more impressive than Toppin's, and against better compe ion. And Clarke had defensive chops & results in college. It's interesting that he slipped so much, but Toppin is still seen as being worthy of getting picked 15+ spots higher than him. I dunno, I just see a lot of red flags with this guy. His growth between years one and two at Dayton is relatively small, and his terrible defense wasn't against good compe ion, like Zion, Clarke, and others-- it was mostly against guys younger than him who aren't close to being NBA prospects. If his absolute highest ceiling is, say, Blake Griffin, is he a good pick? I think he's one of those players that wins you a bunch of games while also guaranteeing you can't compete for a championship... so, another DeMar DeRozan, another Blake Griffin... Is the goal of the Spurs to win more games fast, or to compete for a championship in a few years? If it's the latter, I think Toppin just becomes another problem to deal with. Do we want a future 47 win team built around a significant defensive liability? I don't.
    Last edited by R. DeMurre; 10-15-2020 at 12:51 PM.

  9. #109
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    Brandon Clarke's advanced stats from his last season in college are so much more impressive than Toppin's, and against better compe ion. And Clarke had defensive chops & results in college. It's interesting that he slipped so much, but Toppin is still seen as being worthy of getting picked 15+ spots higher than him. I dunno, I just see a lot of red flags with this guy. His growth between years one and two at Dayton is relatively small, and his terrible defense wasn't against good compe ion, like Zion, Clarke, and others-- it was mostly against guys younger than him who aren't close to being NBA prospects. If his absolute highest ceiling is, say, Blake Griffin, is he a good pick? I think he's one of those players that wins you a bunch of games while also guaranteeing you can't compete for a championship... so, another DeMar DeRozan, another Blake Griffin... Is the goal of the Spurs to win more games fast, or to compete for a championship in a few years? If it's the latter, I think Toppin just becomes another problem to deal with. Do we want a future 47 win team built around a significant defensive liability? I don't.
    And this post is how I think the Spurs operate... Always thinking ahead in years.

  10. #110
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Brandon Clarke's advanced stats from his last season in college are so much more impressive than Toppin's, and against better compe ion. And Clarke had defensive chops & results in college. It's interesting that he slipped so much, but Toppin is still seen as being worthy of getting picked 15+ spots higher than him. I dunno, I just see a lot of red flags with this guy. His growth between years one and two at Dayton is relatively small, and his terrible defense wasn't against good compe ion, like Zion, Clarke, and others-- it was mostly against guys younger than him who aren't close to being NBA prospects. If his absolute highest ceiling is, say, Blake Griffin, is he a good pick? I think he's one of those players that wins you a bunch of games while also guaranteeing you can't compete for a championship... so, another DeMar DeRozan, another Blake Griffin... Is the goal of the Spurs to win more games fast, or to compete for a championship in a few years? If it's the latter, I think Toppin just becomes another problem to deal with. Do we want a future 47 win team built around a significant defensive liability? I don't.
    Why didn't you compare Toppin to Zion while you were at it ? Clarke was an absolute uber that last year in school. It's not even remotely fair to compare Brandon to anyone the Spurs have a chance at drafting in that regard.

    And what the ? Of course DeRozan and Griffin would be great picks at 11. They'd be fine picks at 1. All-NBAers don't just grow on trees.

    I'm sorry. There are reasons to be skeptical of Toppin. But saying, "He didn't play as well as Brandon Clarke" or "His ceiling may only be Blake Griffin" aren't among them.

  11. #111
    Veteran R. DeMurre's Avatar
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    I'm sorry. There are reasons to be skeptical of Toppin. But saying, "He didn't play as well as Brandon Clarke" or "His ceiling may only be Blake Griffin" aren't among them.
    My point was his absolute highest ceiling is Blake Griffin, and it's unlikely he achieves that. I don't want a Michael Beasley at #11. I think the Brandon Clarke comparison makes sense because he's an effective player that has lower expectations, but isn't viewed as a guy you'd (mistakenly) build a team around, like Amar'e or Blake. I'd rather have a useful glue guy who could be a piece in the future, rather than a flawed "star" who will make a championship nearly impossible, in the same way that I wouldn't trade Derrick White for Russell Westbrook. Is White better than Westbrook? No. But if the Spurs can somehow find a superstar to lead them in the next few years, White would be able to play alongside him, and Westbrook wouldn't.
    Last edited by R. DeMurre; 10-15-2020 at 02:22 PM.

  12. #112
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    My point was his absolute highest ceiling is Blake Griffin, and it's unlikely he achieves that. I don't want a Micheal Beasley at #11. I think the Brandon Clarke comparison makes sense because he's an effective player that has lower expectations, but isn't viewed as a guy you'd (mistakenly) build a team around, like Amar'e or Blake. I'd rather have a useful glue guy who could be a piece in the future, rather than a flawed "star" who will make a championship nearly impossible, in the same way that I wouldn't trade Derrick White for Russell Westbrook. Is White better than Westbrook? No. But if the Spurs can somehow find a superstar to lead them in the next few years, White would be able to play alongside him, and Westbrook wouldn't.
    Clarke has superstar stats. There are plenty of NBA stars who didn't outperform Brandon in college. It's a bad comparison. And a Griffin ceiling is a high ceiling. You have borked expectations in both regards.

    And no, on the same money, and at the same age, I'd totally take Westbrook. Russ is a HoFer. In the very least you take Westbrook and trade him for four firsts. White couldn't and didn't lead his team to the playoffs. Russ hasn't missed them in years.

    This is the kind of mentality that makes folks overpay for Robert Covington. Role-players have nothing on stars. It's great to have Cov over nothing, but you're farther from a le with him than DeRozan.

  13. #113
    Veteran R. DeMurre's Avatar
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    Clarke has superstar stats. There are plenty of NBA stars who didn't outperform Brandon in college. It's a bad comparison. And a Griffin ceiling is a high ceiling. You have borked expectations in both regards.

    And no, on the same money, and at the same age, I'd totally take Westbrook. Russ is a HoFer. In the very least you take Westbrook and trade him for four firsts.

    This is the kind of mentality that makes folks overpay for Robert Covington. Role-players have nothing on stars. It's great to have Cov over nothing, but you're farther from a le with him than DeRozan.
    1. Clarke has great advanced stats, but he's still coming off the bench for a borderline playoff team. Memphis isn't changing their approach to build around Clarke as their main (or future highest paid) star.
    2. Obviously, the Westbrook for White analogy is meant for now, not in a make believe world where they're the same age and available in the same draft, or make the same salary.
    3. Overpaying for Covington? What does that have to do with anything? That's not something I'd ever advocate for.

  14. #114
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    1. Clarke has great advanced stats, but he's still coming off the bench for a borderline playoff team. Memphis isn't changing their approach to build around Clarke as their main (or future highest paid) star.
    Yes, and that's my point. Clarke had tremendous stats, better than those most superstars put up in school. There's zero reason to use that to argue Toppin isn't as good as him or won't be. And I am like the biggest Clarke homer here, but the only player that would've had Brandon's stats was Wiseman. You're using Clarke as some baseline, since you think he's a borderline player for a borderline team and thus anyone worth a crap should be better than him. But that doesn't make sense. No one else in this draft (save Wiseman) was better than Clarke either.

    2. Obviously, the Westbrook for White analogy is meant for now, not in a make believe world where they're the same age and available in the same draft, or make the same salary.
    No... It's meant to show how a player who has a great role-player skill-set is a better get than a star. Russ has an awful contract and is old now. The point you were making is that drafting someone with the ceiling of Blake or DeRozan is somehow bad because you 'can't win with that'. Pound for pound, Westbrook runs circles around White. If there were two players in the draft with those two as equally likely ceilings, the one mirroring Westbrook is the better get. You cross the bridge of not being able to win a le with him when you get good enough to worry about that.

    3. Overpaying for Covington? What does that have to do with anything? That's not something I'd ever advocate for.
    It has to do with you having a weird and skewed view on what "winning players" are. Cov is a good enough piece, but in now way, shape or form is he better than a star. It doesn't matter that he can slot into more lineups and do his thing. It doesn't matter that his advanced stats are great. He's arguably the most extreme version of what you were going for with White. If you told me there was a player at 11 who'd definitely be the next Covington, I'd gladly draft him, unless there was a guy who would almost certainly become a poor man's Blake or DMDR with a chance of being as good as the genuine article. I'd certainly love for there to be a way to draft both players, but the star is the easy choice.

  15. #115
    Veteran R. DeMurre's Avatar
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    No... It's meant to show how a player who has a great role-player skill-set is a better get than a star...
    I specifically said flawed "star," with the word star in quotes and the word flawed crucially important to the argument. You changed that to me making an argument that role players are better than stars. Sorry, but you're being disingenuous. My analogy specifically refers to highly flawed star like Westbrook being more harm than good in the pursuit of a championship. And that's also how I feel about Toppin. A big who's likely going to be a career defensive liability isn't a guy I think the Spurs should pursue.

  16. #116
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I specifically said flawed "star," with the word star in quotes and the word flawed crucially important to the argument. You changed that to me making an argument that role players are better than stars. Sorry, but you're being disingenuous. My analogy specifically refers to highly flawed star like Westbrook being more harm than good in the pursuit of a championship. And that's also how I feel about Toppin. A big who's likely going to be a career defensive liability isn't a guy I think the Spurs should pursue.
    I don't have an issue with your last sentence in a vacuum. It's when you try to extend it that it goes wrong. Griffin, Westbrook, Aldridge, DeRozan -- they're all way better than one can realistically expect typical high picks to be. It doesn't matter that they aren't bedrocks to le teams, because the guys like White aren't either. There are so few championship cornerstones in the NBA.

    I didn't miss your point. You're doubling down on what I pointed out as flawed reasoning by thinking that mentioning Westbrook's warts changes anything. This isn't a guy like Crawford who scores a lot of points but has been a net-negative his whole career. We're talking about an MVP who's been to the playoffs almost every year of his career and has played deep in the post-season multiple times. Right now, being old and expensive, Russ's ability to help a team is pretty low. But when he was White's age, he was a far better player. Yes, Westbrook could make a random bone-headed decision to lose a game, but he also made a bunch of plays to keep his team in the game before that. That's not something White or any other player of his ilk is going to do consistently.

    So yeah, not liking Toppin for his defense, age, position, etc. is defensible, even if I disagree. But considering Clarke's senior-year production as some rite of passage for good players or thinking assigning a flawed-star ceiling is a red flag really isn't. I like Toppin quite a bit, and I don't have confidence he has a higher ceiling than any of those players. I just also have no confidence that anyone else in the draft does.

  17. #117
    Spurs fan in Las Vegas Drom John's Avatar
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    The Ringer: 2020 NBA Mock Draft: What If LaMelo Ball Slips?: Mock Draft updated 11.3
    by Kevin O'Connor

    11
    Obi Toppin Obi Toppin
    San Antonio Spurs Logo San Antonio Spurs
    San Antonio Spurs

    Spurs fans should be ecstatic if Toppin falls to no. 11 and gets to develop in San Antonio’s system. Toppin would benefit from Gregg Popovich’s teachings on the defensive end and a top-notch strength and conditioning program. Toppin could also make for a juicy pick-and-roll fit with Dejounte Murray as a lob threat or pop-out shooter.
    OBI TOPPIN
    Big, Dayton, redshirt sop re

    Athleticism Athleticism
    Interior Scoring Interior Scoring
    Shot Blocking Shot Blocking
    PTS 20.0 25.3 per 40
    REB 7.5 9.5 per 40
    EFG% 67.4 387 FGA
    3PT% 39.0 82 3PA

    Age22.2
    Wingspan6'11''
    Height6'9''
    Weight220

    Pure athlete who runs the floor with grace and jumps with explosive power.
    Shades Of: Amar'e Stoudemire, Kyle Kuzma, Bouncy Marcus Morris
    PLUSES

    Glides through the air for ferocious dunks; he’s a major threat in the pick-and-roll, cutting, and running the break. He also possesses a soft touch with either hand around the rim.
    Nimble ball handler who can attack from the perimeter; he’ll be a weapon in fake dribble handoffs since he can facilitate, shoot, or get to the basket.
    Good shooter from NBA 3-point range, but he hasn’t fallen in love with his shot like many modern bigs.
    Strong playmaker. He makes quick decisions out of the short roll and could develop into a playmaking hub from the post.
    Has the leaping ability and quickness to theoretically be an effective shot blocker.

    MINUSES

    Brutal pick-and-roll defender who displays little recognition or feel for reading a screen; he’s almost always out of position.
    High center of gravity limits his defensive ability in the post. He’ll often get pushed around for low-post positioning—Zion would bury him under the rim.
    Doesn’t change directions well laterally; he has tight hips, which means NBA offenses will attack him relentlessly one-on-one.
    Poor help defender and rebounder who doesn’t play with great awareness or effort.
    Lacks an arsenal of low-post scoring moves and is raw shooting off the dribble
    .

  18. #118
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Would be a dream come true.

  19. #119
    Veteran R. DeMurre's Avatar
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    MINUSES

    Brutal pick-and-roll defender who displays little recognition or feel for reading a screen; he’s almost always out of position.
    High center of gravity limits his defensive ability in the post. He’ll often get pushed around for low-post positioning—Zion would bury him under the rim.
    Doesn’t change directions well laterally; he has tight hips, which means NBA offenses will attack him relentlessly one-on-one.
    Poor help defender and rebounder who doesn’t play with great awareness or effort.
    Lacks an arsenal of low-post scoring moves and is raw shooting off the dribble

    .
    Would be a dream come true.
    Honest question: I get that you like his instant offense, but does the bad D, poor instincts, feel, effort, IQ, etc scare you at all? Do you view Toppin as a guy to legitimately build around, or do you think he'll put up big numbers like a young Blake Griffin and become a potentially valuable trade piece in the future?

  20. #120
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Honest question: I get that you like his instant offense, but does the bad D, poor instincts, feel, effort, IQ, etc scare you at all? Do you view Toppin as a guy to legitimately build around, or do you think he'll put up big numbers like a young Blake Griffin and become a potentially valuable trade piece in the future?
    I think you're selling him sort offensively. That same post you quoted talked about how promising his play-making is. That doesn't suggest a bad feel or IQ. It doesn't scare me at all that he's a bad defender. That's something the team would have to deal with once they become good enough to worry about. His offense would make all of the young guys better. My hope for the draft was to pick up a defensive four to compliment a White, Walker, DeRozan, _____, Aldridge lineup. I'd still be happy with that, but I'm also down for picking up a guy to slot into the future White, Walker, Johnson, _______ Poeltl lineup. Toppin joining that unit raises the ceiling by a lot more than a defensive four would.

  21. #121
    Veteran R. DeMurre's Avatar
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    I think you're selling him sort offensively. That same post you quoted talked about how promising his play-making is. That doesn't suggest a bad feel or IQ. It doesn't scare me at all that he's a bad defender. That's something the team would have to deal with once they become good enough to worry about. His offense would make all of the young guys better. My hope for the draft was to pick up a defensive four to compliment a White, Walker, DeRozan, _____, Aldridge lineup. I'd still be happy with that, but I'm also down for picking up a guy to slot into the future White, Walker, Johnson, _______ Poeltl lineup. Toppin joining that unit raises the ceiling by a lot more than a defensive four would.
    Blake Griffin has also been a good play-maker his entire career, with a much better than average assist rate for a PF. I just don't see building around a guy that most scouts agree is relatively clueless at least 50% of the time he's on the floor. My fear is come playoff time, even if he's averaging 22/8, he becomes the huge target of opposing offenses and efficient superstars-- similar to DeRozan's mediocre advanced stats (for a star) being markedly worse during his playoff stints. So while I'll agree with you that he raises the ceiling, my worry is he's the classic case, as a centerpiece, of short term gain/long term loss-- not in the sense of wins or playoff appearances, but in terms of championship probability.
    Last edited by R. DeMurre; 11-04-2020 at 11:46 AM.

  22. #122
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Blake Griffin has also been a good play-maker his entire career, with a much better than average assist rate for a PF. I just don't see building around a guy that most scouts agree is relatively clueless at least 50% of the time he's on the floor. My fear is come playoff time, even if he's averaging 22/8, he becomes the huge target of opposing offenses and efficient superstars-- similar to DeRozan's mediocre advanced stats (for a star) being markedly worse during his playoff stints. So while I'll agree with you that he raises the ceiling, my worry is he's the classic case, as a centerpiece, of short term gain/long term loss-- not in the sense of wins or playoff appearances, but in terms of championship probability.
    Ugh, man are we going to talk about this again? You literally can't expect to get more impactful players and Griffin or DeRozan at 11 (or 2). They are both top-30 players of the past decade. It's completely illogical to not want Toppin because you think "at best he'll only be an All-Star --level scorer and not a championship centerpiece". You'd have to build around him, or trade him and move on. But if the issue is that with Toppin as the best player the Spurs are just a consistent playoff team that struggles to get out of the second round, that's way better than any of the young guys on the roster and honestly in the draft project to be.

    Who do you want in the draft that you think will be better than you think Toppin will be?

  23. #123
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Meh, I think I would rather draft the next Danny Green or Robert Horry, than the next DeRozan or Blake Griffin, tbh.

    I understand that drafting an all-star level player, even if extremely flawed, is an absolute win, but meh, what's the point of drafting a guy that will raise your floor quick but will also keep you out of true contention for years to come? I don't know, I'm torn about this. Sometimes I lean one way, sometimes the other. Just draft the Marfan demi-God and start collecting rings.

  24. #124
    Veteran Sugus's Avatar
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    Meh, I think I would rather draft the next Danny Green or Robert Horry, than the next DeRozan or Blake Griffin, tbh.

    I understand that drafting an all-star level player, even if extremely flawed, is an absolute win, but meh, what's the point of drafting a guy that will raise your floor quick but will also keep you out of true contention for years to come? I don't know, I'm torn about this. Sometimes I lean one way, sometimes the other. Just draft the Marfan demi-God and start collecting rings.
    I'm on the same boat, tbh, not high on Toppin at all even if he falls down to #11. I'm not even convinced he's gonna be an All-Star either, even if he does put up good counting stats. But more than anything, if the Spurs are looking to draft a flawed or one-dimensional player, I'd much rather he be the defensive type - someone like Okongwu, who has a lot of offensive question marks/raw game - than an offense-only, turnstyle on D kinda player like Toppin.

    But no Marfan DemiGod, please. The league just isn't ready for him on the Spurs...

  25. #125
    Veteran R. DeMurre's Avatar
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    You literally can't expect to get more impactful players and Griffin or DeRozan at 11 (or 2). They are both top-30 players of the past decade.
    This is where we disagree. Sorry, DeRozan is not even close to being a top 30 player of the last decade in my eyes. DeRozan wasn't even top 50 in RPM for SFs this season, and was 288th overall in the league. How is it every other legit star-- LeBron, Giannis, Jokic, Leonard, Lowry, Doncic, Curry, Siakam, Butler, Tatum, etc., etc.-- managed to be near the top of this statistical category, and almost without exception leads his individual team in it, while DeRozan tests year after year (and moreso in the playoffs) like an average player at best, and at worst a liability?

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