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  1. #26
    Dragon style JamStone's Avatar
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    Jokic's inability to be a rim protector is what holds him back from being an MVP candidate. The biggest weakness in his game is he's a terrible interior defender and is not good at defensive rotations. Unfortunately he can't help it because he's not quick enough laterally to ever be great defender. Duncan would not have those problems since he had great mobility and lateral quickness when he was in his prime.
    Because defense is what prevented guys like Steve Nash and Steph Curry and Dirk and Harden from being MVPs over the past decade and a half...

    Jokic isn’t an MVP candidate because in this offensive explosion of an era, a guy who scores 20 PPG might as well be scoring 12 PPG. There will be multiple players who hover around or over 30 PPG in today’s game, and they’ll always be viewed as MVP contenders. Right or wrong, agree or disagree, that’s just how it will be. Anthony Davis’ best season where he put up 28/11/2.6 blks/1.5 stls and led a Pels teams to their best record in like a decade, and he still finished behind Harden and LeBron for the MVP.

  2. #27
    Winner in a losers circle 140's Avatar
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    If anything Jim would dominate even more in tdays nba tbh

  3. #28
    Executive Mitch's Avatar
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    Being a sexual, it's quite likely he would be drafted #1 no matter since it'd be a good PR move. Rockets would love him

  4. #29
    6X ST MVP
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    Sure Duncan would be in the NBA. But would he get a lot of bench time like Capella, Boban, etc?

  5. #30
    Believe. Dirks_Finale's Avatar
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    Once Shaq got that first le he started piling on weight and it would be over for him. His pick n roll defense was maybe the worst in the NBA. Really would have required him slimming down and he just never had such discipline.



    Changed for the better or worse? Watching Giannis he can't do anything in the half court.. Give him a little of what Duncan or Hakeem had on the block and Heat would be down 2-0 right now.. Everything is head down to the basket.. And he can't shoot.. So a Big that can't shoot is going to win back to back League MVP's.. But everyone says the 6'11 guy must be a 3 PT shooter. Well he sucks at it..

    And so the Jackson's and Riley's of the world would NOT want Shaq? Or they would build a great physical half court team around him? Sure guys like Duncan and Hakeem would do better on D because of their mobility than Shaq.. But Surround Shaq with great shooters.. You play to the strengths. Shaq and Kobe together today can't win? What do you think? Seems silly to me..

  6. #31
    Believe. Dirks_Finale's Avatar
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    Sure Duncan would be in the NBA. But would he get a lot of bench time like Capella, Boban, etc?
    Boban can actually make a FT.

  7. #32
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    Because defense is what prevented guys like Steve Nash and Steph Curry and Dirk and Harden from being MVPs over the past decade and a half...

    Jokic isn’t an MVP candidate because in this offensive explosion of an era, a guy who scores 20 PPG might as well be scoring 12 PPG. There will be multiple players who hover around or over 30 PPG in today’s game, and they’ll always be viewed as MVP contenders. Right or wrong, agree or disagree, that’s just how it will be. Anthony Davis’ best season where he put up 28/11/2.6 blks/1.5 stls and led a Pels teams to their best record in like a decade, and he still finished behind Harden and LeBron for the MVP.
    1. You are right about Harden,Dirk,Nash,Curry. I didn't consider them when I thought about the defensive aspect of my argument. I was just factoring in why I feel Jokic is flawed. It's possible Jokic could win an MVP if the Nuggets have a break through season of winning 60 plus games and finish with the best record in the league. Winning I still believe helps tremendously in winning the MVP. Think about it Nash won 2 MVP's and it was mainly due to leading his Sun teams to elite records.
    2. Davis was never going to get the MVP simply because his Pels didn't finish with a top 4 record. Westbrook is the only guy in the last 40 years to win the MVP and not have a team with a top 4 record so it's rare you are going to get the award if your team is not elite.

  8. #33
    36/7/7
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    There's no way he'd sniff top 5 today. He'd be better than Gobert still, but come on.

  9. #34
    Because I choose to. Neo.'s Avatar
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    For the record, I question how Shaq would fit in today’s game too.

    He literally could not play defense against 75% of the league now.
    Being great and having the same type of career he did are not the same. Expect Jokic to win multiple League MVPs and be the Finals MVP of multiple championship teams? Adapting, being a winner, being great. Take those out of the equation. In this era, would Tim Duncan win multiple MVPs, multiple championships as the franchise player, and go down as a top 10 player in league history? Is there any big man drafted in the past two decades that will have that type of career in today’s game?
    Play run-and-gun uptempo style and put him in pick-and-roll every time on defense, he dies of cardiac arrest by halftime.
    Big man PNR defense has changed, even more drastically just the last few years. Big men can’t drop in the lane anymore. They have to play up, they have to hedge the ball handler who is usually a good to great shooter, play man up on a guard if there’s a switch, and still have to recover to the roller if no switch. Makes you tired just thinking about it. Put Shaq in the PNR with Jamal Murray as the ball handler and for every dunk he makes, he’s giving up a wide open three pointer to a great three point shooter. At least on the other end, you can hack Shaq to prevent a dunk sometimes. Shaq dropping in the lane on PNR or having to play man up on a guard is game over.

    The game has changed man.
    It’s not an opinion piece on the state of the game. I didn’t say the game’s better. Just different. Even in the playoffs, there’s less and less halfcourt sets, at least the 20+ second, run multiple actions type sets. It’s transition, delayed transitioned, shoot the first open three, or drive and finish or drive and kick. Giannis is a 30 point scorer without being able to do anything in the halfcourt set.

    Giannis is not a good shooter. But he’s 7 foot physical freak who fits today’s game because the uptempo style doesn’t negatively affect his style. Put the Shaq comparison aside. He fits today’s game because he has a similar style to LeBron in that he’s a freak who can play all five positions and handle the ball, rebound, push the break, and finish at the rim.

    Phil Jackson would not be Phil Jackson in today’s game. And Riley would not want anything to do with 330+ pound Shaquille in today’s evolved game. In fact, I bet you Riley hated Shaq’s poor conditioning and got rid of him as quickly as he could after the championship.
    all this tbh

    plus the way you are allowed to defend the post is much different now as well, with zone defense being allowed. it allows much more strategy for denying the ball getting into the post cleanly. previously, you either had to blatantly send a double or it was an illegal defense. but with zone being allowed, teams can shade to discourage the entry pass much differently. the 04 Pistons were a perfect example of this in how they defended shaq in the finals. once shaq got the ball, it was pretty much an easy bucket, he could have averaged 40ppg that series, but they did such a good job denying him the ball in spots he was comfortable, that he just didn't get nearly as many opportunities as he would have liked. so many times they just couldn't cleanly get it into him, and had to leave it to kobe to find some way to make something out of nothing with a short shot clock against a defense full of wings who could make him work. take away the allowing of zone defense, and i highly doubt detroit wins that series.

    its just not as easy anymore to consistently get clean passes into the post with room to operate, even with a bunch of three point shooters around. defensive strategy has evolved to help reduce the effectiveness of low post players.

  10. #35
    6X ST MVP
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    Once Shaq got that first le he started piling on weight and it would be over for him. His pick n roll defense was maybe the worst in the NBA. Really would have required him slimming down and he just never had such discipline.
    But he could shoot 80 FG on dunks against these center-less teams.

  11. #36
    Believe. Dirks_Finale's Avatar
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    But he could shoot 80 FG on dunks against these center-less teams.
    What about his pathetic pick n roll defense though? You think he could get away with it in this day and age?

  12. #37
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    What about his pathetic pick n roll defense though? You think he could get away with it in this day and age?
    He'd have had to retired five years earlier or gotten in better shape; but I think you're over thinking it some.

  13. #38
    BLACK LIVES MATTER Play Boban's Avatar
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    For the record, I question how Shaq would fit in today’s game too.

    He literally could not play defense against 75% of the league now.
    Shaq would have a nice career in China imho

  14. #39
    R.C. Drunkford TimDunkem's Avatar
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    I know one thing. Young Dunc wouldn't be getting on by P.J. Tucker.

  15. #40
    Believe. Kyle_Kuzma's Avatar
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    Too slow, too unskilled, can’t shoot, too immobile. Maybe he could have a solid career in China still, but no chance he could make it in today’s nba.
    duncan would be a rich man jahlil okafor they both have the same offensive skill set

    back to the basket big men are dead. he’d still be a starter because of his defense but he’s pretty much useless offensively. 15 ppg and 10 rpg would be his ceiling.

    he’d be a top 7 big man for sure, above deandre ayton and steven adams.

  16. #41
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    duncan would be a rich man jahlil okafor they both have the same offensive skill set

    back to the basket big men are dead. he’d still be a starter because of his defense but he’s pretty much useless offensively. 15 ppg and 10 rpg would be his ceiling.

    he’d be a top 7 big man for sure, above deandre ayton and steven adams.
    Just because your boy AD can't back down PJ Tucker and Harden doesn't mean back to the basket style of play isn't effective.

  17. #42
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    duncan would be a rich man jahlil okafor they both have the same offensive skill set

    back to the basket big men are dead. he’d still be a starter because of his defense but he’s pretty much useless offensively. 15 ppg and 10 rpg would be his ceiling.

    he’d be a top 7 big man for sure, above deandre ayton and steven adams.
    Just because your boy AD can't back down PJ Tucker and Harden doesn't mean back to the basket style of play isn't effective.

  18. #43
    Believe. Kyle_Kuzma's Avatar
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    Just because your boy AD can't back down PJ Tucker and Harden doesn't mean back to the basket style of play isn't effective.
    come on bruh. i like duncan tbh but what i spit is nothing but truth.

    duncan wouldn’t be a top 10 player in this association.

    kawhi
    lebron
    harden
    giannis
    steph
    KD
    Luka
    AD
    tatum
    lillard
    donovan mitc
    jimmy butler
    cp3

    would all be in front of duncan


    ya cant build a championship with a center in today’s era.


    prime kobe would be a god if he played in today’s game

  19. #44
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    come on bruh. i like duncan tbh but what i spit is nothing but truth.

    duncan wouldn’t be a top 10 player in this association.

    kawhi
    lebron
    harden
    giannis
    steph
    KD
    Luka
    AD
    tatum
    lillard
    donovan mitc
    jimmy butler
    cp3

    would all be in front of duncan


    ya cant build a championship with a center in today’s era.


    prime kobe would be a god if he played in today’s game
    The only big man today that has a legit back to the basket game is Jokic and very few guys can guard him. No way would you ever see Harden or PJ Tucker trying to guard him. Only reason Jokic is not a top 5 player is because he's a poor defender and limited on the defensive end. Hard for me not to see Duncan not being even more dominant on the offensive end after watching what Jokic is doing. Duncan would be able to dominant the defensive end unlike Jokic.

    Playing back to the basket is lost art. It's why AD and Giannis are both getting exposed right now because both don't have the ability to play that type of game. AD can't do it simply because he's not strong enough to do it. Giannis can't do it because he never developed the footwork and fundamental skill set to do it.

  20. #45
    Klaw apalisoc_9's Avatar
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    Nah.

    Peak Duncan would easily be the 2nd best player today. Probably even the best player.

    That was a champion and the smartest superstar i have ever seen play the game of basketball.

  21. #46
    Believe. Kyle_Kuzma's Avatar
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    The only big man today that has a legit back to the basket game is Jokic and very few guys can guard him. No way would you ever see Harden or PJ Tucker trying to guard him. Only reason Jokic is not a top 5 player is because he's a poor defender and limited on the defensive end. Hard for me not to see Duncan not being even more dominant on the offensive end after watching what Jokic is doing. Duncan would be able to dominant the defensive end unlike Jokic.

    Playing back to the basket is lost art. It's why AD and Giannis are both getting exposed right now because both don't have the ability to play that type of game. AD can't do it simply because he's not strong enough to do it. Giannis can't do it because he never developed the footwork and fundamental skill set to do it.
    if jokic is your standard, be advised that he’s ineffective as seen in the playoffs

    jamal murray had to drop 2 50 pt games to carry that bamma to the second round


    AD is a soft ass but he’s still much more valuable than duncan because of his offense.

    defensively it’s a tie. dont think duncan can guard perimeter players like AD so by virtue, brow would be ranked higher in today’s association.


    duncan as the 1st option on any team would either make um worse or you wont see a significant improvement.

    replace giannis with prime duncan and the heat would still run circles on that bucks team, fasho.


    this is not an insult, its just the reality of today’s low quality, trash game.

  22. #47
    Believe. Kyle_Kuzma's Avatar
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    Nah.

    Peak Duncan would easily be the 2nd best player today. Probably even the best player.

    That was a champion and the smartest superstar i have ever seen play the game of basketball.

    ...the “smartest” angle is probably one of the dumbest take tbh.

    there’s plenty of dumb players with championship rangs.

    talent/organization >*

  23. #48
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    if jokic is your standard, be advised that he’s ineffective as seen in the playoffs

    jamal murray had to drop 2 50 pt games to carry that bamma to the second round


    AD is a soft ass but he’s still much more valuable than duncan because of his offense.

    defensively it’s a tie. dont think duncan can guard perimeter players like AD so by virtue, brow would be ranked higher in today’s association.


    duncan as the 1st option on any team would either make um worse or you wont see a significant improvement.

    replace giannis with prime duncan and the heat would still run circles on that bucks team, fasho.


    this is not an insult, its just the reality of today’s low quality, trash game.
    1. Jokic was the reason why the nuggest won the series. Murray was terrible in game 7. It was Jokic that nuggets went to in the 4 quarter to win the game and get buckets. For a bum Jokic average 26 pts and 8 rebound along with 5 assists on above 50 percent shooting. I know you will bring up Murray's 50 point games but Jokic's presence on the court plays a huge role in Murray being able to get easy buckets. Jokic was also statistically better than Murray in the playoffs last year. Last year Jokic in the playoffs average 25-13-8 on 50 percent shooting while Murray averaged 21-4-4 on 42 percent shooting. It's clear Jokic is the best player on the Nuggets. Go ask Nuggets fans who they value more and they will tell you it's Jokic.

    2. Only thing AD does better on the offensive end compared to prime Duncan is he's a much better jump shooter. I'm not a fan of AD's game and never have been. He's in the mold of a Garnett-Robinson-Bosh type of bigman which is he's reliant on shooting jumpers and slashing to the basket to get his on the offensive end but has little to no post up game. It's why Houston can get away with guarding him with midgets and force the Lakers to play their game. Historically you don't win with those type of bigs as your number 1 option. I don't see prime Duncan struggling defensively he was great at switching on rotations and also has higher IQ than AD on the defensive end.

    3. Duncan would not struggle against Bam Adebyo. The problem with Giannis game is he's a 7 ft Russell Westbrook. He's reliant just barreling his way to the basket for a lay up or a dunk. He has no counters to doing anything else once a team forms a wall around him. It's what has hurt the bucks down the stretch when the game has gotten close against the Heat in the 4th quarter. Duncan again is great at switching so I don't see how he would have any problems defending against the Heat.

  24. #49
    Veteran Arcadian's Avatar
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    From '97-'06 he was super spry.From '06-'08 he started to lose his spryness. Then after '08 he had completely lost it.
    And then in 2011 he somehow got better again, culminating in his First Team All-NBA selection in 2013.

  25. #50
    Groundhog Day TDfan2007's Avatar
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    So... I'm confused. When are we saying this modern NBA started? Because Tim Duncan, on one knee, was the best player on a championship team in 2014, and was a bounce away from being finals mvp in 2013. He was smart and skilled enough to transition from the best post big in the league to arguably the best PNR big in the league by 2013. He could've adjusted to anything.

    Prime Timmy could hit the outside shot, had a faceup offensive game, and was one of the few bigs in the league along with Garnett and Wallace who could hedge on 3 point shooters and recover to his man/protect the rim. He routinely took guys off the dribble and either finished at the rim or made one of his finesse moves to score. He was much more than a low post scorer.

    Just imagine today's "switch everything" defense putting a guard on prime Timmy...he would average 30 or 20 and 7-8 assists depending on the team's double strategy.

    Embiid and Jokic are both arguably top 10 players in today's game. Timmy was better than both. Surround that man with shooters, and one perimeter play maker, even today, and it's over.

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