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  1. #1
    The Good Doctor Rummpd's Avatar
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    Just the facts - from basketball reference note Duncan for four years of best defensive rating in league (and should have won DVP multiple times). James does have a higher PER and Win Share and is rightfully considered the better player. However, the true gap is not what is thought of; and if starting a team give me Duncan over the wandering James (as Duncan the ultimate winner by win percentage despite off and on far lessor support_.

    https://www.basketball-reference.com...duncati01.html

    https://www.basketball-reference.com...jamesle01.html

    https://clutchpoints.com/tim-duncan-...last-19-years/

    BLUF: It these two had ever paired up for even 8 years they would have won more championships than Jordan/Pippen, Shaq/Kobe etc.

  2. #2
    6X ST MVP
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    Just the facts - from basketball reference note Duncan for four years of best defensive rating in league (and should have won DVP multiple times). James does have a higher PER and Win Share and is rightfully considered the better player. However, the true gap is not what is thought of; and if starting a team give me Duncan over the wandering James (as Duncan the ultimate winner by win percentage despite off and on far lessor support_.
    No. That's basket dork stats. TD was truly dominant. LeCoward has to do roids and get calls.
    LeCoward ain't in Duncan's stratosphere. Duncan swept LeCoward in three finals if you don't count Suckovich giving one away.

  3. #3
    The Good Doctor Rummpd's Avatar
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    No. That's basket dork stats. TD was truly dominant. LeCoward has to do roids and get calls.
    LeCoward ain't in Duncan's stratosphere. Duncan swept LeCoward in three finals if you don't count Suckovich giving one away.
    I agree with you to a point that I would take TD over LBJ to start a franchise and mainly as LBJ has cowardly left Cleveland twice instead of helping rebuild.

  4. #4
    Because I choose to. Neo.'s Avatar
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    No. That's basket dork stats. TD was truly dominant. LeCoward has to do roids and get calls.
    LeCoward ain't in Duncan's stratosphere. Duncan swept LeCoward in three finals if you don't count Suckovich giving one away.
    proof?

  5. #5
    6X ST MVP
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    Dude, he's Barry Bonds'ing it.

    TOSB was washed up in his first year with the Lakers.

  6. #6
    The Good Doctor Rummpd's Avatar
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    Dude, he's Barry Bonds'ing it.

    TOSB was washed up in his first year with the Lakers.
    Truth as he is on something it seems

  7. #7
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    lol Jordan is the most ref protected player of all time and it's not even close

  8. #8
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    Dude, he's Barry Bonds'ing it.

    TOSB was washed up in his first year with the Lakers.
    Then why did the Lakers shut him down for the rest of the season if he was Barryboding?

  9. #9
    The Good Doctor Rummpd's Avatar
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    lol Jordan is the most ref protected player of all time and it's not even close
    That would be LBJ followed Harden actually

  10. #10
    6X ST MVP
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    Then why did the Lakers shut him down for the rest of the season if he was Barryboding?
    He shut himself down. Whatever "supplements" he takes were changed. Personnel changes didn't hurt either.
    But you don't get drastically better from one year to the next like that, naturally. Dude's probably doing Balco-level sh**.
    Unlike Bonds, he doesn't have the enemies ratting him out (yet).

  11. #11
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    That would be LBJ followed Harden actually
    Yes LBJ gets some call, but during his career hes had quite a few playoff games were the refs were ting on him

    It's Jordan and it's not even close

  12. #12
    The Good Doctor Rummpd's Avatar
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    Do you watch games? Jordan got no call vs Utah but never went to line aka LBJ, Kobe, Harden etc. I am a HS ref and grant not NBA level but game was called much differently back then and James like Shaq IMO most egarious non calls going to hoop ever.

  13. #13
    Veteran R. DeMurre's Avatar
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    The thing that almost all analysts miss when evaluating Duncan's career is that for the vast majority of his prime, he played for one of the most frugal organizations in the entire NBA. During their key rivalry years, the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, Kobe/Pau Lakers, and the Big Three era of Miami outspent Tim's Spurs by many many millions of dollars-- it wasn't even close. In 2013/14, San Antonio's payroll was $63mil compared to Miami's $81mil. In 2003/4 the Spurs' payroll was $46.4mil and the Lakers' was $64mil. Go back in a Time Machine and give Timmy an additional $10mil player each year, and he almost certainly finishes with 6 or more rings.
    Last edited by R. DeMurre; 10-19-2020 at 11:21 AM.

  14. #14
    The Good Doctor Rummpd's Avatar
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    The thing that almost all analysts miss when evaluating Duncan's career is that for the vast majority of his prime, he played for one of the most frugal organizations in the entire NBA. During their key rivalry years, the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, Kobe/Pau Lakers, and the Big Three era of Miami outspent Tim's Spurs by many many millions of dollars-- it wasn't even close. In 2013/14, San Antonio's payroll was $63mil compared to Miami's $81mil. In 2003/4 the Spurs' payroll was $46.4mil and the Lakers' was $64mil. Go back in a Time Machine and give Timmy an additional $10mil player each year, and he almost certainly finishes with 6 or more rings.
    Fair point

  15. #15
    Dragon style JamStone's Avatar
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    At worst, LeBron is a top 4 player in NBA history, depending how you view Wilt. Top 3 with Jordan and Kareem is legitimate. At best, Duncan is bottom half of top 10, probably closer to 10 than 5.

    Whatever “gap” you think there is, however great or small you believe, the gap is there and it’s real and it’s significant enough that it’s clear LeBron had a greater career. Duncan’s career is great, HOF, one of a handful of the very best. LeBron’s career should go down as one of the top 2-3 best careers ever, even with his Finals record.

    You can talk about steroids all you want. Dwyane Wade looked like he juiced too with his Family Guy cartoon jawline. He didn’t have a top 10 NBA career, let alone a top 3. Joakim Noah, Rashard Lewis, Lindsey Hunter, Hedo Turkogku, OJ Mayo, Darius Miles... all suspended by the league for some form of PED use. You don’t see any of those guys getting casted for a Hall of Fame bust. The athletic freaks like Stromile Swift and Corey Maggette never were in position to chase down Jordan and Kareem. Steroids or not, if a player doesn’t have the skill and IQ and will to match, then that player doesn’t do what LeBron has done for 17 seasons.

    The four years Duncan led the league in defensive rating, he finished 4th, 6th, 3rd, and 6th in DPOY voting, not even one top 2 finish. In 2007, he has an argument in third place with Camby winning the award that he could have maybe won it. The other three years he wasn’t even a legitimate contender for the award, let alone was robbed of it. Defensive rating is a nice stat to look at as long as you understand that it’s at least partially dependent on the performance of teammates and the team as a whole. The better your teammates are defensively and how the team defends collectively really impact a stat like DR. Could Duncan have won a DPOY in his career? Sure. He was good enough defensively. Was the voting messed up? Sure, just like the League MVP where guys like Nash and Curry are multiple winners and Shaq only has one. It is what it is. You shouldn’t make arguments that a player be considered better because he “should have” won an award he didn’t win. It’s a ty argument.

  16. #16
    Believe. i'm_still_beta's Avatar
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    LeBron haters are desperate.

    He isn't going to last after 30 ... best player in the World at age 35. He's playoffs choker ... 4 les, 4 fmvps. lol

    Nobody produced so well for so long. You can easily make a case for LeBron as a GOAT

    Not LeBron fan but I have to give credit where credit is due

    P.S. Every superstar gets favourable calls.

  17. #17
    Because I choose to. Neo.'s Avatar
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    Dude, he's Barry Bonds'ing it.

    TOSB was washed up in his first year with the Lakers.
    proof?

  18. #18
    Because I choose to. Neo.'s Avatar
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    Yes LBJ gets some call, but during his career hes had quite a few playoff games were the refs were ting on him

    It's Jordan and it's not even close
    lol like in game 7 2016 near the end, lebron had an easy layup and iggy blatantly raked him across the arms to stop the layup and no call

  19. #19
    Because I choose to. Neo.'s Avatar
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    The thing that almost all analysts miss when evaluating Duncan's career is that for the vast majority of his prime, he played for one of the most frugal organizations in the entire NBA. During their key rivalry years, the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, Kobe/Pau Lakers, and the Big Three era of Miami outspent Tim's Spurs by many many millions of dollars-- it wasn't even close. In 2013/14, San Antonio's payroll was $63mil compared to Miami's $81mil. In 2003/4 the Spurs' payroll was $46.4mil and the Lakers' was $64mil. Go back in a Time Machine and give Timmy an additional $10mil player each year, and he almost certainly finishes with 6 or more rings.
    yes they were frugle, but they were so well ran and coached they were able to be. they found two HOFs to support timmy at the end of the first and in the second rounds. pop did a wonderful job of finding hidden gems of role players for cheap, and maximizing their potential. they have without question been the most well ran organization in basketball (until the kawhi drama) for 20 years or so.

    one could counter your argument, that if you give timmy a disaster of an organization like cleveland, new york, or philly, he finishes with no rings, unless he leaves the team for something better. or that if lebron was given the GOAT coach and the most well ran franchise professional basketball has ever seen, he already has 6+ rings.

  20. #20
    Believe.
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    Lebron is more talented than Duncan. And besides rings, Lebron has pretty much surpassed Duncan in every other category accomplishment wise. So I wouldn't mind someone saying Lebron is higher all time. But if I had to start a team? I'm picking Duncan. Duncan's loyal while Lebron's going to team hop the second he can.

  21. #21
    The Good Doctor Rummpd's Avatar
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    Lebron is more talented than Duncan. And besides rings, Lebron has pretty much surpassed Duncan in every other category accomplishment wise. So I wouldn't mind someone saying Lebron is higher all time. But if I had to start a team? I'm picking Duncan. Duncan's loyal while Lebron's going to team hop the second he can.
    About sums it up

  22. #22
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    lol like in game 7 2016 near the end, lebron had an easy layup and iggy blatantly raked him across the arms to stop the layup and no call
    Exactly

  23. #23
    Because I choose to. Neo.'s Avatar
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    Lebron is more talented than Duncan. And besides rings, Lebron has pretty much surpassed Duncan in every other category accomplishment wise. So I wouldn't mind someone saying Lebron is higher all time. But if I had to start a team? I'm picking Duncan. Duncan's loyal while Lebron's going to team hop the second he can.
    lol whining about "loyalty" when timmy quit on an entire country because things didn't go his way

  24. #24
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    Do you watch games? Jordan got no call vs Utah but never went to line aka LBJ, Kobe, Harden etc. I am a HS ref and grant not NBA level but game was called much differently back then and James like Shaq IMO most egarious non calls going to hoop ever.
    I watch games and Jordan is the most ref protected player in the NBA history

    And when he wasn’t getting BS calls in his favour himself, his team did, Stern making sure Jordan rang no matter what

    You bring up the Jazz series :

    - end of game 6 in 97 : 2 « missed » goaltending calls
    - game 6 in 1998 : Eisley makes a 3 before the shotclock expired, waived off by company man in chief Bavetta; Ron Harper makes 2 after the shotclock expired, not waived off by Bavetta; look at the final score and do the math

  25. #25
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    lol whining about "loyalty" when timmy quit on an entire country because things didn't go his way
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