Page 7 of 7 FirstFirst ... 34567
Results 151 to 169 of 169
  1. #151
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Post Count
    30,994
    Whites a better and more willing passer than DeRozan ever was, and he doesn’t dribble into traffic without a plan like DD often did.
    White's the best player on the Spurs by far right now, but he isn't on DeRozan's level, even as a play-maker. It takes more than passing ability to create for others. DeRozan last year was basically Prime Tony without the benefit of having a team built to his strengths. You give DeMar the 2012-2013 cast, and he would've been MVP with SA winning the le. Not that DeRozan was a better defender than Prime Parker though. I'm more saying that no, White doesn't just replace that.

    Forbes can create enough to where team's have to watch him off the dribble. But he'll hopefully be the fourth option in such instances and just has to make the right pass to the open man as the defense is scrambling. As far as the first option, right now the Spurs are basically having to hope Walker takes the next step or Primo grows up fast. They're sorely lack in structure right now.

  2. #152
    Veteran
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Post Count
    13,829
    You give DeMar the 2012-2013 cast, and he would've been MVP with SA winning the le.

  3. #153
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Post Count
    30,994
    The Spurs were obviously really close with Parker hobbled. It's not absurd to think they'd've finished the job with a relative ironman having a career year in his place. Parker basically never had a bad supporting cast, so people can't divorce his production from context. DeRozan would've exploded last year with 2013 Green and Leonard as his running mates.

  4. #154
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Post Count
    40,489
    White's the best player on the Spurs by far right now, but he isn't on DeRozan's level, even as a play-maker. It takes more than passing ability to create for others. DeRozan last year was basically Prime Tony without the benefit of having a team built to his strengths. You give DeMar the 2012-2013 cast, and he would've been MVP with SA winning the le. Not that DeRozan was a better defender than Prime Parker though. I'm more saying that no, White doesn't just replace that.

    Forbes can create enough to where team's have to watch him off the dribble. But he'll hopefully be the fourth option in such instances and just has to make the right pass to the open man as the defense is scrambling. As far as the first option, right now the Spurs are basically having to hope Walker takes the next step or Primo grows up fast. They're sorely lack in structure right now.
    White is SO much better in the pick and roll than DD, it isn’t even funny. As for him being or not being on DeRozans level, they just need to play Moneyball, and replace DeRozan in the aggregate. 22 points, 7 assists, 4 boards. Spread that out between DJ, White, Keldon, Vassell, Lonnie, Luka. Definitely doable.

  5. #155
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Post Count
    30,994
    White is SO much better in the pick and roll than DD, it isn’t even funny. As for him being or not being on DeRozans level, they just need to play Moneyball, and replace DeRozan in the aggregate. 22 points, 7 assists, 4 boards. Spread that out between DJ, White, Keldon, Vassell, Lonnie, Luka. Definitely doable.
    Moneyball doesn't work in basketball. It's one of the worst teams sports for it due to how few players are on the court and how the players play both sides of the ball. White was great in the PnR last year. DMDR was elite at it. I don't think people realize how great of an offensive season DeMar had. It was possibly top-10 in Spurs history, though someone like Drom John will likely have something to say about it.

  6. #156
    Veteran
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Post Count
    97,514
    White can't stay healthy

  7. #157
    Veteran
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Post Count
    13,829
    The Spurs were obviously really close with Parker hobbled. It's not absurd to think they'd've finished the job with a relative ironman having a career year in his place. Parker basically never had a bad supporting cast, so people can't divorce his production from context. DeRozan would've exploded last year with 2013 Green and Leonard as his running mates.
    You're underrating '12-'13 Parker, who was significantly better than '20-'21 DeRozan and also presuming everything plays out the same, from seeds to matchups to injuries, etc.

  8. #158
    Veteran
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Post Count
    97,514
    White can't stay healthy

  9. #159
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Post Count
    30,994
    You're underrating '12-'13 Parker, who was significantly better than '20-'21 DeRozan and also presuming everything plays out the same, from seeds to matchups to injuries, etc.
    I'm not underrating Parker. I'm basically saying that DeRozan (offensively) was that good. Obviously Parker had more success, but he had a better team around him. DeRozan didn't even have the benefit of dominating the ball, because Murray basically split carries with him. Pop built the roster and scheme around Tony's strengths. He told DeRozan to find a way to make a 25 team into a playoff compe or. He got close.

  10. #160
    Spurs fan in Las Vegas Drom John's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Post Count
    3,675
    Moneyball doesn't work in basketball. It's one of the worst teams sports for it due to how few players are on the court and how the players play both sides of the ball. White was great in the PnR last year. DMDR was elite at it. I don't think people realize how great of an offensive season DeMar had. It was possibly top-10 in Spurs history, though someone like Drom John will likely have something to say about it.
    I think Moneyball has a place in basketball especially in a salary cap league. Morey hasn't won, but neither has Beane. But both have had very good teams

    I sadly stopped updating Spurs stats since Basketball-Reference stopped being free, and since other sources disown the ABA Spurs/Chaparrals, I didn't continue.

    That said, DeMar DeRozan probably did not have a top ten offensive season in Spurs history, though DeRozan was very good. DeRozan may not have shot many 3-pointers, DeRozan completed many 3-points plays. Each of those is more valuable than a 3P shot because it also puts a foul on an opponent.

    FiveThirtyRaptor Offensive WAR single seasons 2013-2014 to 2020-2021 minimum 1,058 minutes (FiveThirtyEight's default)
    This is a rate stat, which helps Mills. I'll follow with a post considering PT later.

    1) 7.3 Kawhi Leonard 2017-2018
    2) 5.5 Kawhi Leonard 2015-2016
    3) 4.1 Manu Ginobili 2013-2014
    4) 3.8 Patty Mills 2013-2014
    5) 3.6 DeMar DeRozan 2020-2021
    6) 3.4 Kawhi Leonard 2014-2015
    7) 3.3 Patty Mills 2019-2020
    8) 3.0 Danny Green 2014-2015
    9) 2.8 DeMar DeRozan 2019-2020
    10) 2.6 LaMarcus Aldridge 2017-2018

    I'd expect David Robinson, George Gervin, Tim Duncan and others would drop DeRozan below top 10

    Note that for 2020-2021, only 3 Spurs were positive offensive players
    3.6 DeMar DeRozan
    1.4 Derrick White
    0.7 Dejounte Murray
    Last edited by Drom John; 08-21-2021 at 05:49 PM.

  11. #161
    Spurs fan in Las Vegas Drom John's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Post Count
    3,675
    FiveThirtyEight Offensive WAR * Minutes / 48, ugly number but ...

    1) 441 Leonard 2017
    2) 289 Leonard 2016
    3) 182 Ginobili 2014
    4) 162 Leonard 2015
    5) 157 Green 2015
    6) 153 DeRozan 2021
    7) 149 Mills 2014
    8) 145 Aldridge 2018
    9) 135 DeRozan 2020
    10) 104 Belinelli 2014

    Wow! what a 2014 bench.

  12. #162
    Spurs fan in Las Vegas Drom John's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Post Count
    3,675
    Quite a bit different offensive number, but it goes back to the Chaparrals beginning.
    Basketball-Reference Offensive Win Shares 2008-2021, with 2007-2008 the year that drops DeRozan 2021 out of the top 10.

    1) 8.9 Leonard 2017
    2) 8.3 Leonard 2016
    3) 7.4 Aldridge 2018
    4) 7.1 Parker 2013
    5T 6.6 Ginobili 2011, 2009
    7) 6.5 Ginobili 2010
    8T 6.4 Aldridge 2019, Duncan 2010
    10T) 6.3 Duncan, Ginobili 2008

  13. #163
    Spurs fan in Las Vegas Drom John's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Post Count
    3,675
    Top all time Spurs/Chaparrals Basketball-Reference OWS

    1) 13.3 David Robinson 1994
    2) 11.1 David Robinson 1996
    3T) 10.7 Tim Duncan 2002, David Robinson 1995
    5) 10.5 Jame Silas 1976
    6) 9.5 Tim Duncan 2003
    7) 9.4 David Robinson 1991
    8) 9.3 George Gervin 1980
    9) 9.2 George Gervin 1978
    10) 8.9 Kawhi Leonard 2017

    Others with at least one offensive season better than DeRozan 2020-2021
    LaMarcus Aldridge
    Artis Gilmore
    Manu Ginobili
    Larry Kenon
    Tony Parker
    Alvin Robertson

    To me, this is NOT that DeRozan is overrated offensively, but rather too many have forgotten the past.

    For me, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is the GOAT. Yet when the Bucks last won prior to this year, the Utah Stars led by future Spur, Zelmo Beatty, would have been a tough opponent. Other 1971 Stars that were later Spurs: Ron Boone, Glen Combs and Donnie Freeman. Remember when the leagues merged, the Spurs were immediately a playoff team
    Last edited by Drom John; 08-21-2021 at 05:46 PM.

  14. #164
    Spurs fan in Las Vegas Drom John's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Post Count
    3,675
    Double post.

  15. #165
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Post Count
    40,489
    Top all time Spurs/Chaparrals Basketball-Reference OWS

    1) 13.3 David Robinson 1994
    2) 11.1 David Robinson 1996
    3T) 10.7 Tim Duncan 2002, David Robinson 1995
    5) 10.5 Jame Silas 1976
    6) 9.5 Tim Duncan 2003
    7) 9.4 David Robinson 1991
    8) 9.3 George Gervin 1980
    9) 9.2 George Gervin 1978
    10) 8.9 Kawhi Leonard 2017

    Others with at least one offensive season better than DeRozan 2020-2021
    LaMarcus Aldridge
    Artis Gilmore
    Manu Ginobili
    Larry Kenon
    Tony Parker
    Alvin Robertson

    To me, this is NOT that DeRozan is overrated offensively, but rather too many have forgotten the past.

    For me, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is the GOAT. Yet when the Bucks last won prior to this year, the Utah Stars led by future Spur, Zelmo Beatty, would have been a tough opponent. Other 1971 Stars that were later Spurs: Ron Boone, Glen Combs and Donnie Freeman. Remember when the leagues merged, the Spurs were immediately a playoff team
    3 of the 4 ABA teams were in the NBA playoffs immediately, and the Nets only missed because they had to sell Dr. J’s contract to pay the territorial fee to the Knicks.

  16. #166
    Believe. D-Robinson 50 fan's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Post Count
    1,329
    Drom John

    dropping that historic heat. Thanks for the information!

  17. #167
    Believe.
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Post Count
    136
    Drom John and Chinook, thank you for your information and nice analysis!

  18. #168
    I will not be mishandled MI21's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Post Count
    6,881
    Drom John is such a beast.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •