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  1. #451
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    Metu last 3 minutes for the kings was better than any 3 minute stretch Poeltl has had all year
    Is Metu still in the NBA?

  2. #452
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    Metu last 3 minutes for the kings was better than any 3 minute stretch Poeltl has had all year
    Might even be better then any stretch any Spur big has had this year.

  3. #453
    Veteran KobesAchilles's Avatar
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    Sad part about this thread is me arguing against everybody that it was a bad deal. That we shouldn’t be paying a back up center this kind of money. That he could never be a starter bc he isn’t good enough. There were so many red flags about h that I didn’t like.

    but the reason it’s sad is bc I was right. I don’t mind being wrong as long as it benefits my team

  4. #454
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    Got to give you credit Kobe you were one of the main persons arguing not to sign him from day one. On the other side I think some Flaker fan named Shakril was a big proponent for signing him to that contract saying it was cheap deal for SA.

    The one that that has been discussed at length on this forum has been Centers and that the old Centers who can not hit the 3 ball were like Dinosaurs and should not be signed or kept. I was always getting blasted for wanting Nikola Mulutinov who I think is averaging 10pts and 8rbs a game.

    As far as Poodle we are never going to win anything with a guy who has Zero offense it just makes that much easier for other defense to not even try to defend him and makes doubling down on players so much easier.

  5. #455
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    Sad part about this thread is me arguing against everybody that it was a bad deal. That we shouldn’t be paying a back up center this kind of money. That he could never be a starter bc he isn’t good enough. There were so many red flags about h that I didn’t like.

    but the reason it’s sad is bc I was right. I don’t mind being wrong as long as it benefits my team
    Again, $9 mil is back-up money in today's market. It's nothing outrageous.

  6. #456
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    Again, $9 mil is back-up money in today's market. It's nothing outrageous.
    Yeah, really disingenous to be twisting the argument like this. I think most posters (not now, since the awful recent play from Jakob is still fresh in our minds, but back then) would much rather have signed Jakob, than let him walk in FA to another team (it's not hard at all to imagine the trolls laughing about the "incompetent FO letting good players walk away, just like Boban, the Kawhi trade looks worse by the day, etc etc").

    So it's a numbers argument at its core. And given the two scenarios, of paying Poeltl $4M/per more than you think he's worth (since most posters who were anti-resigning, KobesAchilles included I believe, rated Poeltl's value per year at something like $4-5M per year), or losing him in FA - I still think most posters would've chosen the former (and the immediate reactions after the signing was announced agree with me for the most part). It's only now, that his playing has inexplicably gone down the hill, that everyone's calling for Poeltl's head.

    We can pretty safely say that Poeltl won't ever amount to a NBA starting caliber C. That's a problem for the Spurs. Is paying Jakob $9M/per a problem for the Spurs? No. Apples and oranges, people.

  7. #457
    Club Rookie of The Year DJR210's Avatar
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    Again, $9 mil is back-up money in today's market. It's nothing outrageous.
    Agreed.. I've read the meltdowns on IG over Poeltl, and they're raging over the backup getting paid backup money over the tease we got in the bubble

  8. #458
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    Again, $9 mil is back-up money in today's market. It's nothing outrageous.
    I think Kobe thinks it's still 2003.

  9. #459
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    If you can't watch games like a scout or you don't believe in advance stats you would not see Jakob's impact on games. The way LA is playing a lot of posters would be eating crow before the season ends.

  10. #460
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    Yeah, really disingenous to be twisting the argument like this. I think most posters (not now, since the awful recent play from Jakob is still fresh in our minds, but back then) would much rather have signed Jakob, than let him walk in FA to another team (it's not hard at all to imagine the trolls laughing about the "incompetent FO letting good players walk away, just like Boban, the Kawhi trade looks worse by the day, etc etc").

    So it's a numbers argument at its core. And given the two scenarios, of paying Poeltl $4M/per more than you think he's worth (since most posters who were anti-resigning, KobesAchilles included I believe, rated Poeltl's value per year at something like $4-5M per year), or losing him in FA - I still think most posters would've chosen the former (and the immediate reactions after the signing was announced agree with me for the most part). It's only now, that his playing has inexplicably gone down the hill, that everyone's calling for Poeltl's head.

    We can pretty safely say that Poeltl won't ever amount to a NBA starting caliber C. That's a problem for the Spurs. Is paying Jakob $9M/per a problem for the Spurs? No. Apples and oranges, people.
    It’s not really the backup I have a problem with it’s the minutes per game I thought he was gonna get. I figured he would sub 20 minutes a game. If he could play 30 minutes I would’ve been more than happy to pay him that but back up big men are a dime a dozen. Kinda like when we paid Patty 12.5 million when comparable 6th men got 8 million that year.

    I also don’t like us paying $14.5 mill for a bench player, 13 for another and, 9 Jakob. Bc I don’t see Patty getting a pay cut next year tbh. And we still have to pay Lonnie

  11. #461
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    If you can't watch games like a scout or you don't believe in advance stats you would not see Jakob's impact on games. The way LA is playing a lot of posters would be eating crow before the season ends.
    Advance stats are meaningless if he can’t finish games. That’s what people don’t understand. It’s fine that he plays good defense (though that has been up and down) in the 2nd and 3rd quarter but he’s useless in the 4th. He’s unplayable in crunch time. What are his crunch time advance stats?

  12. #462
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    Advance stats are meaningless if he can’t finish games. That’s what people don’t understand. It’s fine that he plays good defense (though that has been up and down) in the 2nd and 3rd quarter but he’s useless in the 4th. He’s unplayable in crunch time. What are his crunch time advance stats?
    Weird argument to have when he just played the whole 4th today.

  13. #463
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    Itís not really the backup I have a problem with itís the minutes per game I thought he was gonna get. I figured he would sub 20 minutes a game. If he could play 30 minutes I wouldíve been more than happy to pay him that but back up big men are a dime a dozen. Kinda like when we paid Patty 12.5 million when comparable 6th men got 8 million that year.

    I also donít like us paying $14.5 mill for a bench player, 13 for another and, 9 Jakob. Bc I donít see Patty getting a pay cut next year tbh. And we still have to pay Lonnie
    I have literally no idea of how many MPG Poeltl is getting right now - and I think any analysis of that, considering this is a three-year deal that we're only 10 games into, is really premature. Both Jakob and the FO hinted that he'd be getting an expanded role after this season, and that LMA will be gone. Posters who dislike Poeltl will be in dismay - "MORE minutes, to that bum?!?" I know. But it's for that reason that I'm not too serious in criticizing his current play or minutes average. Way too soon for that, IMO at least. And as rankingtear points out, he did play the entire 4th today, and was quite solid (yeah, against a depleted Rockettes team, no need to say it). With the way LMA is trending downwards, I see many more 4th quarters being closed out by Jakob - if he can stay out of foul trouble, that is.

    Also, I don't follow the players' salaries close enough to tell which players you're referencing (leave it to ST to make me feel like a casual when I know more about this damned team that most ing fans ); but in any case, that's not really a problem to do with Poeltl's contract per se, is it? More like a FO problem with handing out large contracts to vets ('cause I'm certain those are vets' salaries you're pointing out). To answer you, I don't think Mills is on the team after next season at all, so that's one less problem - neither Rudy, with the way he's playing, nor LMA, for the same reason. DDR is a tossup, sadly, since I want him the gone..... But again, not related to Jakob's deal.

    That's been my point from the beginning. $9M is not an overpay for a player of Jakob's caliber (and to once again make it clear, he has NOT been playing up to his "caliber" this season, and I could find myself agreeing with your take a year from now if he keeps up the ty play); center backups are cheap, but most don't provide the elite defense and screen-setting that Jak does, which is really valuable for a guard-heavy team like the Spurs. Ideally, we sign a Jarret Allen-like starting C next season, who can finish lobs and be a scoring threat on top of rebounding, and leave Jakob to power up a defensive-minded bench. We'll see whether Spurs FO agrees with my plans or not, I guess.

  14. #464
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    Weird argument to have when he just played the whole 4th today.
    One 4th quarter? That’s the counter argument? What about the other 11 games?

  15. #465
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    poodle has a game like this and people cream their pants while saying they want no part of drummond?

  16. #466
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    I have literally no idea of how many MPG Poeltl is getting right now - and I think any analysis of that, considering this is a three-year deal that we're only 10 games into, is really premature. Both Jakob and the FO hinted that he'd be getting an expanded role after this season, and that LMA will be gone. Posters who dislike Poeltl will be in dismay - "MORE minutes, to that bum?!?" I know. But it's for that reason that I'm not too serious in criticizing his current play or minutes average. Way too soon for that, IMO at least. And as rankingtear points out, he did play the entire 4th today, and was quite solid (yeah, against a depleted Rockettes team, no need to say it). With the way LMA is trending downwards, I see many more 4th quarters being closed out by Jakob - if he can stay out of foul trouble, that is.

    Also, I don't follow the players' salaries close enough to tell which players you're referencing (leave it to ST to make me feel like a casual when I know more about this damned team that most ing fans ); but in any case, that's not really a problem to do with Poeltl's contract per se, is it? More like a FO problem with handing out large contracts to vets ('cause I'm certain those are vets' salaries you're pointing out). To answer you, I don't think Mills is on the team after next season at all, so that's one less problem - neither Rudy, with the way he's playing, nor LMA, for the same reason. DDR is a tossup, sadly, since I want him the gone..... But again, not related to Jakob's deal.

    That's been my point from the beginning. $9M is not an overpay for a player of Jakob's caliber (and to once again make it clear, he has NOT been playing up to his "caliber" this season, and I could find myself agreeing with your take a year from now if he keeps up the ty play); center backups are cheap, but most don't provide the elite defense and screen-setting that Jak does, which is really valuable for a guard-heavy team like the Spurs. Ideally, we sign a Jarret Allen-like starting C next season, who can finish lobs and be a scoring threat on top of rebounding, and leave Jakob to power up a defensive-minded bench. We'll see whether Spurs FO agrees with my plans or not, I guess.
    I agree with you on a vacuum but not for this team. Pop was never going to play him starter minutes. I went off his whole career to tell me what type of minutes he was going to play. And that’s where I saw a red flag. Dude has never managed to earn 20 minutes a game ONCE in his whole career when he was a Top 10 pick. That’s not normal and it’s definitely not a good thing. Like imagine if we picked Vassell and he didn’t crack 20 minutes a game once in his entire career. That’s not a pick people would be clamoring about how good it was. My projection going forward (at the time we signed him) was that he wasn’t going to be getting minutes. I think I said he would be getting 18 a game which is right where he is at. He’s a weird player where like he does all the small things we need and when his head is right he’s a good defender against lower level big men. Against all stars he’s useless which is also why I’m not high on advance stats. Yeah he plays great against no names but he has to guard AD and Jokic and Ayton and Nurkic and Gobert. He isn’t going to be playing bums in the playoffs. I’m not even sure he can guard Wiseman.

    I’m just tired of the advance stat argument. Advanced stats don’t mean for a guy who plays so little minutes. So it’s disingenuous to act like if only we played him 35 minutes a game he would be even better than he is now. Both him and his fans need to accept his role and accepts that he is never going to be a starter and not whine about wanting more minutes I would be ok with him. He’s a good back up center. I’m not saying any different. I just wish people would stop projecting for him. He is what he is. He’s not going to get better offensively (except hopefully free throw %), he’s not going to be a strong dunker or a part of our offense. This is going to be him for the next 3 years.

    Also Pop has favorites. He just does. Mills is going to be on the team next year. He’s getting a 2 year deal I believe (probably 3 with a team option on the 3rd). And the way he has been playing he deserves one.

  17. #467
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    poodle has a game like this and people cream their pants while saying they want no part of drummond?
    Poeltl could score 0 points the entirety of this season, and I still wouldn't want any part of Drummond, tbh

  18. #468
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    I agree with you on a vacuum but not for this team. Pop was never going to play him starter minutes. I went off his whole career to tell me what type of minutes he was going to play. And thatís where I saw a red flag. Dude has never managed to earn 20 minutes a game ONCE in his whole career when he was a Top 10 pick. Thatís not normal and itís definitely not a good thing. Like imagine if we picked Vassell and he didnít crack 20 minutes a game once in his entire career. Thatís not a pick people would be clamoring about how good it was. My projection going forward (at the time we signed him) was that he wasnít going to be getting minutes. I think I said he would be getting 18 a game which is right where he is at. Heís a weird player where like he does all the small things we need and when his head is right heís a good defender against lower level big men. Against all stars heís useless which is also why Iím not high on advance stats. Yeah he plays great against no names but he has to guard AD and Jokic and Ayton and Nurkic and Gobert. He isnít going to be playing bums in the playoffs. Iím not even sure he can guard Wiseman.

    Iím just tired of the advance stat argument. Advanced stats donít mean for a guy who plays so little minutes. So itís disingenuous to act like if only we played him 35 minutes a game he would be even better than he is now. Both him and his fans need to accept his role and accepts that he is never going to be a starter and not whine about wanting more minutes I would be ok with him. Heís a good back up center. Iím not saying any different. I just wish people would stop projecting for him. He is what he is. Heís not going to get better offensively (except hopefully free throw %), heís not going to be a strong dunker or a part of our offense. This is going to be him for the next 3 years.

    Also Pop has favorites. He just does. Mills is going to be on the team next year. Heís getting a 2 year deal I believe (probably 3 with a team option on the 3rd). And the way he has been playing he deserves one.
    Woo, can I say I really like your posts? Not every poster comes at my lengthy arguments with lengthy arguments of their own, tbh. That in itself is commendable, I respect it.

    We're getting closer and closer to agreement here, my guy. Regarding his pick status, that's simply a sunken cost fallacy - you shouldn't evaluate Poeltl in regards to where he was picked, that's long past (and wasn't even the Spurs, and the Raps happened to pick him while they had an abundance of solid big men in Ibaka, Gasol et al for their championship run years (bad pick use, tbh)). As to his MPG, I understand you're saying he's not worth the amount we gave him, for the low amount of minutes we'll play him, right? Since you'd clearly be pissed off at Jakob playing more . In which case, we can simply disagree, as I don't think $9M in this modern NBA is anything close to an overpay for a backup big (and most of the contracts signed this off-season, many on the same amount for lesser players, back it up). You have to take into account here the logistics of the actual deal taking place as well: Poeltl was being courted by other teams offering him deals for a bigger amount than the Spurs could offer, which he didn't sign, and the Spurs signed him to almost every penny they could give up whilst staying below the luxury tax line. It was a compromise on both parts by nature, and again I go back to the argument that I'd much rather have him at $9M/per, than lose him for nothing at all, which was the only other outcome.

    I haven't once (seriously) checked Poeltl's advanced stats, hilariously enough. I only go by my eye test of his on-court play, and the basic statistics available (and some random stuff from TW that's posted here occasionally, I guess). As of this season, I'm pretty good with accepting him as our long-term career backup big, which isn't too shabby a role, and something he could be great at - definitely something you keep him for. It's not that he couldn't start for some lower teams, he's just nowhere near as impactful on offense if the Spurs are serious about contending in the near future - even if he improves his FTs a bit, he just doesn't have the coordination, speed, nor skill. In that regard, I agree wholeheartedly, and the Raptors definitely floundered their pick in retrospect (though I doubt they care at all right now, sitting on their ring after dumping him to us on the Neph trade).

    I'm perfectly content keeping this Jakob for 3 more years (the Jakob of last season I mean, not the ty start of this season's). The problem right now, is that LMA's awful play, and our lack of other rotational bigs with Eubanks out, is forcing Jak to play more than he'd need to. That's not Jakob's problem, but the Spurs', and I'd love for them to address it sooner than later; though we'll probably have to ride out LMA's deal since there's no team that will trade for him right now.

    In my perfect scenario, we tank the season starting from after the ASB (or whenever it was supposed to be held, since it's been cancelled), draft a Wiseman-level athletic big from next years' loaded draft, then trot out a similar starting unit to this years', with DD and LMA gone and maybe a FA-signed PF. Then, you run White off the bench (to preserve his body, if anything), who has great chemistry with Jakob. Not too shabby at all, tbh, but we'll see what happens.

    E: I definitely don't think Jakob can guard Wiseman, btw, he'd get cooked and probably will get cooked whenever we play GSW. He's not the best against mobile C's, like today's matchup against Wood.

  19. #469
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Poeltl could score 0 points the entirety of this season, and I still wouldn't want any part of Drummond, tbh
    worst rebounding team in the league, have been soft inside on both ends of the floor, and wanting no part of a player who would help in all those areas, who while currently overpaid, is an expiring contract?

    weird

  20. #470
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    We're getting closer and closer to agreement here, my guy. Regarding his pick status, that's simply a sunken cost fallacy - you shouldn't evaluate Poeltl in regards to where he was picked, that's long past (and wasn't even the Spurs, and the Raps happened to pick him while they had an abundance of solid big men in Ibaka, Gasol et al for their championship run years (bad pick use, tbh)).
    just for technicality: Poeltl was drafted a year before Gasol joined the Raports. he was drafted (and played) as backup to Valancunis with Ibaka at the 4. though like LMA, they partly played Ibaka at the 5 due to being too flat-footed for a 4 on defense

  21. #471
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    worst rebounding team in the league, have been soft inside on both ends of the floor, and wanting no part of a player who would help in all those areas, who while currently overpaid, is an expiring contract?

    weird
    Yes. Drummond's rebounds are empty calories - he regularly has plays where he racks up 2-3 extra rebounds, just because he's so ridiculously awful at finishing around the rim. People complaining about Poeltl would rip out their hair watching Drummond try to score. Bringing him in for rebounding is like bringing Westbrook in for the same purpose. Adding to that, he's one of the worse defending C's in the league, far worse than Poeltl, while costing more than double his price while not a big upgrade on offense (and yes, he's expiring, but will still demand over $10M/per in FA, perhaps as much as $15M). He's nothing that we need beyond a rebounder, and considering there's other rebounding bigs who also bring other qualities to their game (vertical spacing, shooting, interior defense, perimeter defense, playmaking; none of which Drummond does effectively), I'd much rather use that cap space on other players.

    The upper level of what I'd pay Drummond is Poeltl money, and he clearly won't want that. So no, I'm not interested at all.

  22. #472
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    just for technicality: Poeltl was drafted a year before Gasol joined the Raports. he was drafted (and played) as backup to Valancunis with Ibaka at the 4. though like LMA, they partly played Ibaka at the 5 due to being too flat-footed for a 4 on defense
    Duly noted, though I was more speaking on Poeltl always being second or third C on the rotation since being drafted, since the Raps always had better bigs to put on the floor (as you say, they already had Valanciunas, and that #9 pick would've been much better used on a wing or perimeter player). Jakob was just part of the "bench mob", as they called it: he was always behind Jonas, then Ibaka, then Gasol. What I was getting at, was that nevermind his drafting position, he should be judged for how he's played, not with those draftee expectations, since it wasn't even the Spurs who picked him.

  23. #473
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Yes. Drummond's rebounds are empty calories - he regularly has plays where he racks up 2-3 extra rebounds, just because he's so ridiculously awful at finishing around the rim. People complaining about Poeltl would rip out their hair watching Drummond try to score. Bringing him in for rebounding is like bringing Westbrook in for the same purpose. Adding to that, he's one of the worse defending C's in the league, far worse than Poeltl, while costing more than double his price while not a big upgrade on offense (and yes, he's expiring, but will still demand over $10M/per in FA, perhaps as much as $15M). He's nothing that we need beyond a rebounder, and considering there's other rebounding bigs who also bring other qualities to their game (vertical spacing, shooting, interior defense, perimeter defense, playmaking; none of which Drummond does effectively), I'd much rather use that cap space on other players.

    The upper level of what I'd pay Drummond is Poeltl money, and he clearly won't want that. So no, I'm not interested at all.
    I must be delusional then, if Drummond is a worse finisher than poodle. Or im getting punked

  24. #474
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    I must be delusional then, if Drummond is a worse finisher than poodle. Or im getting punked
    You're probably just delusional .

    Let's take a look at the stats. All from last season.

    Drummond Vs. Poeltl:

    FG%: .552 VS .624

    2P%: .593 VS .624

    eFG%: .571 VS .624

    AST/STL/BLK/TOV:

    1.8/1.5/1.4/3.6 VS 1.8/0.6/1.4/0.8

    Not a compelling argument for Drummond; he's incredibly inefficient for someone with his rebounding ability and presence around the rim. Poeltl has a slightly worse FT%, and doesn't shoot 3's at all so his field goal percentages are unaffected (meanwhile, Drummond shot 1.8 3PA at .286, or %28, awful as well). Yes, he scores more points, and he's a historical (empty stats) rebounder, but does he really play so much better than Poeltl, as to warrant more than double the pay? The stats say no, tbh... And I'm not even posting the advanced stats, which all favor Jakob (especially on defense) and paint Drummond in an even worse light.

    Don't go full eye test, my guy. I stand by my comments - Drummond is not worth it and I would not want him on the Spurs.

  25. #475
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    what would poodles FG% be if he wasn’t just finishing possessions where he is spoonfed in the restricted area but asked to generate looks like Drummond? I mean, poodles FG% is better than Duncan’s too

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