Grizzlies: **Debunking the “Tim Duncan had a flawless career” narrative once and for all**

[lefty]

I'm in my late 30's so I would say you are older than me. I'm not nostalgic for the dirty play I want to go back to the early to mid '00s when the Spurs could have juggernaut defense and were allowed to handcheck. Handchecking makes a huge difference when it comes to guarding perimeter players. Without it they are nearly impossible to guard.

Handchecking was illegal during that era and it wouldn’t have bothered Lebron at all
It would have even favored him given his size and strength

Another myth

[daslicer]

Handchecking was illegal during that era and it wouldn’t have bothered Lebron at all
It would have even favored him given his size and strength

Another myth

They made rules to get rid of hand checking during the '00s but they didn't start enforcing them after '05. This was evident in the '06 playoffs when both the Spurs and Pistons were complaining about how the league was calling the games. I remember during the '06 playoffs both teams got memos from the league they were going to start calling fouls. Also I don't know why the you have to keep bringing up Lebron every time the past is brought up. Someone saying they like the old rules is not implying they believe Lebron would have sucked under these rules

[Dirks_Finale]

“Physical” lol
Those myths smh

No

[Dirks_Finale]

Handchecking was illegal during that era and it wouldn’t have bothered Lebron at all

No, but having brute centers in the paint to challenge shots would have
PJ Tucker

[lefty]

No, but having brute centers in the paint to challenge shots would have
PJ Tucker

Lol those centers were late anyway most of the time because of the illegal defense rule they couldn’t “wait for x player” in the paint like the old heads say

[lefty]

No

It wasn’t that physical

And if you need to hurt someone to stop him that means you can’t defend fir
So basically Jordan faced defenders

[Dirks_Finale]

It was a prison yard mentality. Enter the paint too much and get floored. Still happened with guys like Shaq in the 00's.

I see virtually none of that today. They look like they are clearing the lane for the Pope to walk through. Explains how bums like Derozan get 20ppg. He would be a 12th man on a 90's roster Right behind Jud Buechler

It wasn’t that physical

And if you need to hurt someone to stop him that means you can’t defend fir
So basically Jordan faced defenders

[lefty]

It was a prison yard mentality. Enter the paint too much and get floored. Still happened with guys like Shaq in the 00's.

I see virtually none of that today. They look like they are clearing the lane for the Pope to walk through. Explains how bums like Derozan get 20ppg. He would be a 12th man on a 90's roster Right behind Jud Buechler

Physicality isn’t that much different than before tbh
People think it was tough because of the highlight compilations,you can take the physical plays from the last few years and make a video compilation and people will think today is a bloodbath

[Dirks_Finale]

Physicality isn’t that much different than before tbh
People think it was tough because of the highlight compilations,you can take the physical plays from the last few years and make a video compilation and people will think today is a bloodbath

Nope - nothing really sustained...no real edgy play because we lack good rivalries. I mean fast forward a decade and even the 00's Spurs/Mavs had their Eddy Najera slamming Manu and Jet Terry smashing Finley's balls type moments. Now they don't want any of that because they all want to play together and go for boat rides

[Neo.]

at this exaggerated crap

[daslicer]

Nope - nothing really sustained...no real edgy play because we lack good rivalries. I mean fast forward a decade and even the 00's Spurs/Mavs had their Eddy Najera slamming Manu and Jet Terry smashing Finley's balls type moments. Now they don't want any of that because they all want to play together and go for boat rides

Agreed. Spurs-Mavs rivalry great. You had a lot of testy moments from both teams. You also forgot to mention Juwon Howard pulling the rock bottom on Derek Anderson. Even in the years when both teams weren't competing for championships it was fun to watch them match up in the playoffs. I enjoyed beating the Mavs in 2010 and it was a great consolation prize in a year where I knew the Spurs weren't going to win a le.

[Neo.]

Physicality isn’t that much different than before tbh
People think it was tough because of the highlight compilations,you can take the physical plays from the last few years and make a video compilation and people will think today is a bloodbath

[lefty]

at this exaggerated crap

Brainwashing does that to the uninitiated

[Biggems]

Tbh

Duncan could not defend les. Besides that, he always seemed to showup when it mattered. Never quit on his team like Kobe did.

And those early faliures vs LA were a case of Phil just undressing Pop in schemes.

Phil didn't scheme .....it was Tex Winter. Phil was the in Dr. Phil of the NBA. He was great at stroking egos, well except Pippen, sans Jordan.

[Neo.]

Brainwashing does that to the uninitiated

I mean is there less blatantly dirty stuff in the modern nba? sure. rules are exponentially more strict than they used to be, so that's expected. but to act as if there's no physical play whatsoever is bogus, there's plenty of dirty and cheap stuff going on as always, and plenty of hard fouls being given. if there were no hard fouls and dirty stuff going on, then there wouldn't be reviews going on multiple times in nearly every game to determine if a foul was simply hard or to be deemed flagrant.

[Dirks_Finale]

You may have a point there, tbh.

Phil didn't scheme .....it was Tex Winter. Phil was the in Dr. Phil of the NBA. He was great at stroking egos, well except Pippen, sans Jordan.

[Dirks_Finale]

Agreed. Spurs-Mavs rivalry great. You had a lot of testy moments from both teams. You also forgot to mention Juwon Howard pulling the rock bottom on Derek Anderson. Even in the years when both teams weren't competing for championships it was fun to watch them match up in the playoffs. I enjoyed beating the Mavs in 2010 and it was a great consolation prize in a year where I knew the Spurs weren't going to win a le.

2010 had me believing that we would not win a le in the Dirk era. We were the 2 seed, you guys the 7 seed and we couldn't even check Jefferson and George Hill. So frustrating.

All hail Tyson Chandler and Dwayne Casey for shocking the world the following year.

But yeah, the rivalry we had was special... 2014 was also a total barn burner and I took no shame in dropping game 7. That Spur's team moved the ball about as well as possible.

[daslicer]

2010 had me believing that we would not win a le in the Dirk era. We were the 2 seed, you guys the 7 seed and we couldn't even check Jefferson and George Hill. So frustrating.

All hail Tyson Chandler and Dwayne Casey for shocking the world the following year.

But yeah, the rivalry we had was special... 2014 was also a total barn burner and I took no shame in dropping game 7. That Spur's team moved the ball about as well as possible.

In 2010 the Spurs played spoiler against the Mavs. I felt the Mavs in 2010 had a good chance of beating the Lakers because of their size with adding Haywood paired with Dirk. Spurs quick double teams of Dirk in that series was amazing in the sense they were able to disrupt the passing lanes for Dirk and force him to take uncomfortable shots. It took Pop 4 years to figure out how to defend Dirk but it seemed like he finally figured it out in that series. Also Terry for years had been a problem for the Spurs but the Spurs were able to use George Hill defensively to stop him. That to me was huge which took the wind out of the sails for the Mavs.

[LkrFan]

at this exaggerated crap

[Rummpd]

Ask any Fakers fan to dig deep and ask yourself would you take Duncan over Shaq and/or Kobe to start a team? Answer is TD anytime - no drama, highest winning percentage ever true star, most consistent great defender, unselfish etc. Most honestly would take him over LBJ - only Lakers in history would not is Kareem.

[TDfan2007]

I mean is there less blatantly dirty stuff in the modern nba? sure. rules are exponentially more strict than they used to be, so that's expected. but to act as if there's no physical play whatsoever is bogus, there's plenty of dirty and cheap stuff going on as always, and plenty of hard fouls being given. if there were no hard fouls and dirty stuff going on, then there wouldn't be reviews going on multiple times in nearly every game to determine if a foul was simply hard or to be deemed flagrant.

It got worse in 2018 or so with the freedom of movement bull . It's much tougher to be physical now.

Anyone who plays will tell you there's a huge difference between a guy standing in front of you and contesting a shot then a guy riding you and being physical. It's easy enough to score in rec ball if you're allowed to get to your spot without much interference, let alone if you're a world class talent. And the average player is much more skilled now.

But to a point you've made before, guys are more skilled than ever regarding shooting, especially with pull-up 3s. It's MUCH harder to defend guys who you can't touch while they're getting illegal screens left and right and can knock down open pull-up 3s.

[Neo.]

It got worse in 2018 or so with the freedom of movement bull . It's much tougher to be physical now.

by rule, true.

Anyone who plays will tell you there's a huge difference between a guy standing in front of you and contesting a shot then a guy riding you and being physical. It's easy enough to score in rec ball if you're allowed to get to your spot without much interference, let alone if you're a world class talent.

i don't agree. i'm not world class player by any means, but i play a lot in leagues and tournaments where plenty of physical contact is allowed and people take it so seriously its as if their lives depend on it. as an offensive player, 10/10 i prefer having a defender isolated with some space to work and all the handchecking in the world, over a well executed team defense that swarms and cuts lanes off at the right times. perhaps other people feel differently, but thats how i personally feel as someone who plays plenty.

And the average player is much more skilled now.

i agree

But to a point you've made before, guys are more skilled than ever regarding shooting, especially with pull-up 3s. It's MUCH harder to defend guys who you can't touch while they're getting illegal screens left and right and can knock down open pull-up 3s.

true. except for the fact that there is plenty of leniency on touching players and getting physical. while technically outlawed, hand checking still exists. quite blatantly too. and illegal screens have always been around. its not like they have just recently been an issue. any good PnR or PnP team through history has gotten away with a bunch of questionable screening tactics. lets not act like malone was setting a bunch of legal screens in his days.

about the only difference in how defenders play, is that there are a few less blatant flagrants, and that fouls get called more often on fully extended hand checks (or offensive players will do a swing-through and force a foul call). but if the defender moves their feet and avoids fully extending their arm, then refs usually let it slide. big whoop.

[lefty]

I mean is there less blatantly dirty stuff in the modern nba? sure. rules are exponentially more strict than they used to be, so that's expected. but to act as if there's no physical play whatsoever is bogus, there's plenty of dirty and cheap stuff going on as always, and plenty of hard fouls being given. if there were no hard fouls and dirty stuff going on, then there wouldn't be reviews going on multiple times in nearly every game to determine if a foul was simply hard or to be deemed flagrant.

agreed

[LkrFan]

Ask any Fakers fan to dig deep and ask yourself would you take Duncan over Shaq and/or Kobe to start a team? Answer is TD anytime - no drama, highest winning percentage ever true star, most consistent great defender, unselfish etc. Most honestly would take him over LBJ - only Lakers in history would not is Kareem.

Comparing Shaq to Duncan is like comparing Lawrence Taylor to Ray Lewis. At their peaks, LT > Ray Lewis and Shaq > Duncan. Career wise? Give me Ray Lewis and Jim.

And yes, it would have been glorious if Kobe had Jim as his Robin for 15+ years. Jim would "guard the yard" no matter what. Shaq? Not so much

[ambchang]

Comparing Shaq to Duncan is like comparing Lawrence Taylor to Ray Lewis. At their peaks, LT > Ray Lewis and Shaq > Duncan. Career wise? Give me Ray Lewis and Jim.

And yes, it would have been glorious if Kobe had Jim as his Robin for 15+ years. Jim would "guard the yard" no matter what. Shaq? Not so much

. Kobe can’t even convincingly have MVPau as his robin.

Shaq was so dominant that Kobe had to throw a hissy fit to get rid of him such that he can inherit a lottery team.

Next thing you know kobe would be running Duncan off because Kobe can’t stand being the number 2.