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  1. #251
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    Ended up turning this game off at halftime.

    Just saw DeRozan shot 9-25. Was is it every bit as unwatchable, the DeRozan Show, as that boxscore indicates?
    No, not for that reason.

  2. #252
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    Good defensive effort. Youngsters stepped up, pop made the correct adjustments particularly in the 4th.

    Liked pops approach to LA and patty this time around

  3. #253
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    It’s sad to see that the Spurs play better most of the time when Aldridge is on the bench. Hopefully it’s just a slump, but the body language says different in my opinion.
    Diasagree LA against certain teams and situations will be more than valuable. Think the body language is getting confused wih old age and a matchup in Christian wood.. every spur struggled against him. Spurs had a small guarding him in the end and expected a switch.

    Pop handled the seniors pretty much spot on today.. going foward with the win, thats how im expecting Pop to adjust.

  4. #254
    The OL' Perfessor wildbill2u's Avatar
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    Agreed, and I'm fine with disagreeing in my perception of the value that Mills brings to the team. To me, the culture value he brings (positive) is offset by the negative value he puts out on the court most times that he plays, but I acknowledge that the FO doesn't look at it in the same regard, and I've been bracing for the Spurs to not trade him for a while now. In my eyes, he's the most tradeable of the 4 vets in terms of raw value to other teams - but also the one the Spurs FO hold dearest to their heart and their view of team culture, due to the '14 championship experience, leadership, and at ude.

    If I had to take a bet, I'd bet on the Spurs to keep him and then let him walk for a last big contract from a contender this offseason. I truly hope I'm wrong, though, since the Spurs can't really afford to lose any more players without getting something out of them, and at this point it's not looking likely that we'll get anything at all for LMA nor Gay.
    I don't understand the concept of trading Mills for a 1st to a contending team. If he doesn't have value for us, why would another team value him. Isn't a first more valuable than a bench rotation player with serious disadvantages on defense.? Just asking??

  5. #255
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    I think a lot of people are coming up with reasons to not accept that the bubble offense was not sustainable or even desirable. Of course, maybe White fixes everything. But Pop needs to run legit structure and stop catering to folks who can't play in the half-court efficiently. Having a good transition offense and pace is nice, but it's not a foundation. It's not even like the Spurs have elite rim-runners anyway. Too many guys are taking sub-optimal shots and then compounding that with bad rebounding and inconsistent defense. Back it up. Slow it down. Play bigger. Run more sets, and tell guys to stop calling their own number nearly as much.
    Slow it down and play bigger when you have two of the worst bigs in the nba ?

    Maybe the reason why the bubble offense isn't sustainable is because in the bubble lma didn't play at all and right now he is playing and playing the worst basketball of his career ?

  6. #256
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    I don't understand the concept of trading Mills for a 1st to a contending team. If he doesn't have value for us, why would another team value him. Isn't a first more valuable than a bench rotation player with serious disadvantages on defense.? Just asking??
    Good question, and one I was expecting to be asked. At its core, Mills just doesn't bring the same value to the Spurs as he could to other teams - both because the Spurs have a surplus of young guards ready to take on his role and minutes, and because we're overplaying him into being more than he is, a strictly off-the-bench shooter with dribbling abilities. Just like Forbes last season (who is a much worse player btw, I'm not trying to compare the two), he's overtasked by Pop, and exploited by other teams because he needs to be hidden on defense (also something this Spurs squad cannot do, since you need to have a good defense first before you can think of "hiding" someone).

    I think teams like the Sixers, Boston, Milwaukee, could all be looking at Patty, and seeing exactly what's on the surface - he's got good leadership skills, he hustles, he plays within his role but isn't afraid of taking the big shots, and he's a sniper at the NBA level, which is always valuable. We just see the "other side of the coin" since our team isn't constructed in a way that gives us the luxury to relegate Mills to the low role he's best played at. So yes, I don't think it's dissonant to say Mills puts out negative value for the Spurs on the court, yet could net them a first rounder, because talent evaluators from other teams are unlikely to be looking at how the Spurs as a whole are doing, when deciding whether to trade for Patty.

    Again though, I'm really skeptical of us trading him. But I definitely can see his value at (at least) a 1st rounder.

  7. #257
    Veteran Sugus's Avatar
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    , just look at Forbes in MWK for an example of what I'm saying: he's down in MPG from 25 last season (and down from an all-career high 28MPG in '18-19, what was Pop thinking ) to just over 17m this season, and even then, he doesn't take more than 4 3's a game nor closes out games. That's a role Patty Mills could perfectly be a plus in, tbh, especially on a defensive-minded team like the Bucks. Just not on the Spurs of today.

  8. #258
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    Slow it down and play bigger when you have two of the worst bigs in the nba ?
    Maybe the reason why the bubble offense isn't sustainable is because in the bubble lma didn't play at all and right now he is playing and playing the worst basketball of his career ?
    Nope. The Spurs' two quality wins came with LMA playing and being a focus of the offense. Most of their losses came without him.

    The vets have plenty of problems. But the thing plaguing the team right now offensively is the lack of good shots they create. Some of that is because vets like Mills and Gay get into modes where they force it. A lot of it, though, comes from how often the Spurs choose to attack in disadvantageous positions. For stretches, they have been hitting shots at incredibly high rates, like Johnson and White from three in bubble and Murray at the rim to start this season. That covers up the legit issues the offense has. Is Johnson barreling into the paint REALLY your best shot? Is Murray trying to cross over his man REALLY the best way to break down a defense? When Keldon makes the layup or DJM cans the pull-up, you shrug your shoulders and go "whatever". Right, like, a make's a make. But the blocked drives or the missed shots aren't the random exceptions that folks are pretending they are. They're the norm, because those aren't high-percentage plays. That's where the team comes from.

    So when you have possession after possession in the first half end with one of those low-percentage plays doing what it's supposed to do, and the team just keeps getting more and more derailed. But people will post during that stretch that it was Gay, or Mills or Aldridge who did it even though they collectively would go long periods of time not even touching the ball or even being in the game. People will get pissed at DeRozan (a proven NBA scorer) for missing a few shots on direct iso calls but then pretend they don't notice the young guys literally breaking off plays to take bad shots. I'm more than okay with the vets being traded and seeing some new blood come in. However, I'm losing my desire to watch young guys play bad basketball for no other reason than their coach doesn't want to do his job.

  9. #259
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    I don't understand the concept of trading Mills for a 1st to a contending team. If he doesn't have value for us, why would another team value him. Isn't a first more valuable than a bench rotation player with serious disadvantages on defense.? Just asking??
    He doesn't have value for us because we're nowhere close to being a contending team. Any contending team would love to have Patty's championship pedigree and elite shooting.

  10. #260
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    Nope. The Spurs' two quality wins came with LMA playing and being a focus of the offense. Most of their losses came without him.

    The vets have plenty of problems. But the thing plaguing the team right now offensively is the lack of good shots they create. Some of that is because vets like Mills and Gay get into modes where they force it. A lot of it, though, comes from how often the Spurs choose to attack in disadvantageous positions. For stretches, they have been hitting shots at incredibly high rates, like Johnson and White from three in bubble and Murray at the rim to start this season. That covers up the legit issues the offense has. Is Johnson barreling into the paint REALLY your best shot? Is Murray trying to cross over his man REALLY the best way to break down a defense? When Keldon makes the layup or DJM cans the pull-up, you shrug your shoulders and go "whatever". Right, like, a make's a make. But the blocked drives or the missed shots aren't the random exceptions that folks are pretending they are. They're the norm, because those aren't high-percentage plays. That's where the team comes from.

    So when you have possession after possession in the first half end with one of those low-percentage plays doing what it's supposed to do, and the team just keeps getting more and more derailed. But people will post during that stretch that it was Gay, or Mills or Aldridge who did it even though they collectively would go long periods of time not even touching the ball or even being in the game. People will get pissed at DeRozan (a proven NBA scorer) for missing a few shots on direct iso calls but then pretend they don't notice the young guys literally breaking off plays to take bad shots. I'm more than okay with the vets being traded and seeing some new blood come in. However, I'm losing my desire to watch young guys play bad basketball for no other reason than their coach doesn't want to do his job.
    Have you ever at all considered the freedom being allowed is a way to develop the youth?

    One of (Spur-version) Kawhi's biggest criticisms league-wide was that he was a system player.

    As good as Kawhi was on the Spur (offense and especially defense), he didn't truly blossom until he left the Spurs. Until he was given freedom to distribute, dribble freely, and open up his game. The Kawhi now is a massively different player. His ball handling is insane and he posts up a lot less. He also shoots 3s whenever he feels like it.

    Keldon and DJ right now are getting way more media attention right now than Kawhi ever did, and you know it. That's because a system isn't in place to put constraint on their games.

    Now, maybe this is something the Spurs have learned. A way to keep their guys happy and want to stay with the team. A lot of Spurs have complained in the past about feeling constricted. If it wasn't about pay, it was about freedom to play.

    I, for one, don't want another Kawhi situation. Do you? Even if you say Kawhi was better off playing the way he was here in order to win games, he wasn't happy with that. In the end, it's your players you have to satisfy, because with them leaving after their contracts end it all becomes a waste.

    If we all impose a system on all the youth, we'll never get to see what they're comfortable with, where their hot spots are, etc. They would be relegated to the corner 3 and you know it. They'll bounce as soon as their contract is up.

    Now, MAYBE we'll see more plays being run once we lock up our fourth youngest player, Keldon. Who knows? Right now, when we're not contending, why constrict the young guys and prevent them from truly developing?

    Sometimes you have to think outside the box. You yourself acknowledged that this was a development year with vets to guide the way. Perhaps you're only seeing half of it.

    Fact is: Spurs are known to churn out system players. They're moving away from that.
    Last edited by Dejounte; 01-17-2021 at 09:15 AM.

  11. #261
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    Nope. The Spurs' two quality wins came with LMA playing and being a focus of the offense. Most of their losses came without him.

    The vets have plenty of problems. But the thing plaguing the team right now offensively is the lack of good shots they create. Some of that is because vets like Mills and Gay get into modes where they force it. A lot of it, though, comes from how often the Spurs choose to attack in disadvantageous positions. For stretches, they have been hitting shots at incredibly high rates, like Johnson and White from three in bubble and Murray at the rim to start this season. That covers up the legit issues the offense has. Is Johnson barreling into the paint REALLY your best shot? Is Murray trying to cross over his man REALLY the best way to break down a defense? When Keldon makes the layup or DJM cans the pull-up, you shrug your shoulders and go "whatever". Right, like, a make's a make. But the blocked drives or the missed shots aren't the random exceptions that folks are pretending they are. They're the norm, because those aren't high-percentage plays. That's where the team comes from.

    So when you have possession after possession in the first half end with one of those low-percentage plays doing what it's supposed to do, and the team just keeps getting more and more derailed. But people will post during that stretch that it was Gay, or Mills or Aldridge who did it even though they collectively would go long periods of time not even touching the ball or even being in the game. People will get pissed at DeRozan (a proven NBA scorer) for missing a few shots on direct iso calls but then pretend they don't notice the young guys literally breaking off plays to take bad shots. I'm more than okay with the vets being traded and seeing some new blood come in. However, I'm losing my desire to watch young guys play bad basketball for no other reason than their coach doesn't want to do his job.
    Well the point of this season is turbo charging the basketball IQ development of the young players, that comes with a lot of motion offense. Speeding up the game results in more possessions to make reads and rotations.

    In my opinion this season should be all about getting the IQ of Dejounte, Keldon, Lonnie and Vassell close to White's level. As long as we are compe ive in games let the young guys make the decision.

  12. #262
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    Also, Keldon's "barreling into the paint" IS one of the Spurs' best shots. He has a TS% of .571, only behind Patty Mills whose numbers has been skewed by his hot shooting early in the season. Keldon's hitting shots near the rim at a 61.6% accuracy, only behind DJ (in insane 64.7%) for non-bigs. Only Poetl is ahead of these two in FG% near the rim, and that's only because he has a low sample size. So no, they are not low percentage plays.

    Keldon is also ranked #86 in TS% among players with >250 minutes, ahead of guys like Herro, Doncic.
    Last edited by Dejounte; 01-17-2021 at 10:31 AM.

  13. #263
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    Good question, and one I was expecting to be asked. At its core, Mills just doesn't bring the same value to the Spurs as he could to other teams - both because the Spurs have a surplus of young guards ready to take on his role and minutes, and because we're overplaying him into being more than he is, a strictly off-the-bench shooter with dribbling abilities. Just like Forbes last season (who is a much worse player btw, I'm not trying to compare the two), he's overtasked by Pop, and exploited by other teams because he needs to be hidden on defense (also something this Spurs squad cannot do, since you need to have a good defense first before you can think of "hiding" someone).

    I think teams like the Sixers, Boston, Milwaukee, could all be looking at Patty, and seeing exactly what's on the surface - he's got good leadership skills, he hustles, he plays within his role but isn't afraid of taking the big shots, and he's a sniper at the NBA level, which is always valuable. We just see the "other side of the coin" since our team isn't constructed in a way that gives us the luxury to relegate Mills to the low role he's best played at. So yes, I don't think it's dissonant to say Mills puts out negative value for the Spurs on the court, yet could net them a first rounder, because talent evaluators from other teams are unlikely to be looking at how the Spurs as a whole are doing, when deciding whether to trade for Patty.

    Again though, I'm really skeptical of us trading him. But I definitely can see his value at (at least) a 1st rounder.
    I think Denver and Utah would snap him up. Philly would probably love him too.

  14. #264
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    I think Denver and Utah would snap him up. Philly would probably love him too.
    Mills makes no sense for the Nuggets or Jazz. He could for the 76ers, but presuming relative health, it seems more likely than not that this team hovers around a playoff spot, in which case the four veterans will more than likely be retained considering they mostly lack the value to bring back anything of significance anyway.

  15. #265
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Mills makes no sense for the Nuggets or Jazz. He could for the 76ers, but presuming relative health, it seems more likely than not that this team hovers around a playoff spot, in which case the four veterans will more than likely be retained considering they mostly lack the value to bring back anything of significance anyway.
    All of them, except maybe Gay, should net us at least a late first round pick. Seeing what the Spurs have done with late first round picks the past 5 years, I think it would be dumb not to shop each one of them for at least that, tbh. Specially considering you would lose them for nothing if not.

  16. #266
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    All of them, except maybe Gay, should net us at least a late first round pick. Seeing what the Spurs have done with late first round picks the past 5 years, I think it would be dumb not to shop each one of them for at least that, tbh. Specially considering you would lose them for nothing if not.
    I'm skeptical of that and either way, I'm not debating the merits of it. Just saying, we all know they like having the veterans around the youth and that they'd prefer to make the playoffs, even though they'd have no chance of advancing.

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