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  1. #26
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    "I’ve always been a big believer that every team needs a star," Martelli said. "Every team needs a star. Yes, we’re balanced. Close to five guys averaging double figures and will end up at the end of the season in that area. We could end up with six guys averaging double figures. When you’re on the road, when you’re in the battles and when you get a little blood on your lip, which we will get. Who’s the guy? To me, it’s Franz. I think that you saw that certainly at Nebraska. He’s the one, to me, with a really good team, I think that these guys are really, really talented. Really balanced, really connected. Somebody has to walk into every gym and think that they’re the toughest gunfighter in the West. To me, it’s Franz."

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/247spor...158001002/Amp/

    Michigan has a 13-1 record.
    We sure could use a big dose of toughness...

  2. #27
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    those defensive highlights remind me of kirilenko

  3. #28
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    if he's projected as a 2nd rounder that draft class is miles better than the last one

  4. #29
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    if he's projected as a 2nd rounder that draft class is miles better than the last one
    He was after his slow start during the college season, he's amped it up a notch though.

  5. #30
    Veteran J_Paco's Avatar
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    Yeaaaaaah, I don't think so. Sig bet? You realize his shooting numbers aren't bad? That his free throw percentage is really high which is an indication of good shooting ability?

    What more does the kid need to prove on defense?

    Your quick dismissal of him reeks of little research.

    If Bolmaro, Payton Pritchard, Desmond Bane, and probably several others can jump to the 1st round, Franz certainly will.

    So far, players mocked in mid to late first round don't look like anything better than what Franz looks to be. Tell me, which 30 to 50 players you think are better than Franz? What metrics did you use?

    Tell me how someone like Roko looks better than Franz? Kai Jones? Like I said, he's putting up similar or better numbers than past lottery prospects.
    All those upperclassmen rose to the 1st round in a extremely weak class, while the 2021 class is said to be one of the best, deepest classes in years.

    Again, this kid will likely be available in the 2nd round and if not, then no big deal. The Spurs need a possible superstar (soon) in the draft not another role-player with little upside.

    If he's available in the early second round or goes undrafted then I'm all for him joining the team on a two-way deal. That way they can develop him and hopefully they have solid glue guy on their roster (which we also lack).

    He is climbing up draft boards (mid to late 1st round) and is only 19 years old (will be 20 in August), but he definitely isn't what the team needs. Like I stated earlier, the team needs a prospect that has the potential to become a superstar and that is possible into the late lottery.
    Last edited by J_Paco; 01-24-2021 at 01:40 AM.

  6. #31
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    All those upperclassmen rose to the 1st round in a extremely weak class, while the 2021 class is said to be one of the best, deepest classes in years.

    Again, this kid will likely be available in the 2nd round and if not, then no big deal. The Spurs need a possible superstar (soon) in the draft not another role-player with little upside.

    If he's available in the early second round or goes undrafted then I'm all for him joining the team on a two-way deal. That way they can develop him and hopefully they have solid glue guy on their roster (which we also lack).

    He is climbing up draft boards (mid to late 1st round) and is only 19 years old (will be 20 in August), but he definitely isn't what the team needs. Like I stated earlier, the team needs a prospect that has the potential to become a superstar and that is possible into the late lottery.
    So, because he doesn't fit your idea of being a high ceiling prospect + you think this draft is loaded with players with star potential from 1 - 30, that's why you think he's a second rounder. Please name all the prospects projected between 15-30 that you think has star potential. Even in the best drafts, there are many high floor prospects, low ceiling types that get drafted in that range. Now I really think you're just pulling out of your ass. You haven't provided any basis either why Wagner can't become a star, other than say "he's not athletic enough".

    It's not like the Spurs share your idea of drafting a high ceiling prospect either, we picked Vassell instead of the remaining players with high ceiling potential.

  7. #32
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    He's moved into the top 10 in another board:

    Michigan sop re Franz Wagner, younger brother of Washington Wizards big Moritz Wagner, has a very unique skill set who looked sharp for Alba Berlin and on the FIBA circuit for Germany before coming to the United States.

    Still just 19 years old, Wagner fills the stat-sheet in several different aspects of the game as a 3-and-D option in the frontcourt with some ball-handling ability. He can score from all over the floor and he can also play well as a tertiary playmaker who rarely turns the ball over. As a defender, he leads the Big Ten in defensive win shares and defensive box plus-minus.

    Overall, according to Bart Torvik, his box plus-minus ranks as the best mark among all sop res.

    https://ftw.usatoday.com/lists/nba-m...pects-sleepers

    But nah, no star potential because J Paco says so.

  8. #33
    Veteran J_Paco's Avatar
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    So, because he doesn't fit your idea of being a high ceiling prospect + you think this draft is loaded with players with star potential from 1 - 30, that's why you think he's a second rounder. Please name all the prospects projected between 15-30 that you think has star potential. Even in the best drafts, there are many high floor prospects, low ceiling types that get drafted in that range. Now I really think you're just pulling out of your ass. You haven't provided any basis either why Wagner can't become a star, other than say "he's not athletic enough".

    It's not like the Spurs share your idea of drafting a high ceiling prospect either, we picked Vassell instead of the remaining players with high ceiling potential.
    Dude, it's okay if you like this kid. I just don't believe he's what the team needs and that is a kid with possible "superstar" upside.

    He seems like he could be a solid glue guy or possibly a good starting 3/4. Most guys of his build and skillset without elite athleticism either flame out or are role players in the league (Sam Dekker, Doug McDermott, etc.).

    And, again, the 2020 draft was historically weak and their 4 "better" fits (Williams, Advija, Wiseman & Smith) were off the board. I didn't like any of the prospects remaining more than Vassell.

    I hope this kid pans out and becomes a better pro than his older brother, but he isn't they type of player we need until we find our next star (we have enough role players).

    And I'm not gonna knock his game or over analyze a bunch match ups in January, when the big sites haven't given their in-depth mock drafts, yet. And March Madness and the combine could also play a part in how things are slotted. We'll see......

    It's great that you are high on the kid, but I'd like a more athletic combo forward or an elite shooting wing instead. Kid is a jack of all trades, master of none type that isn't an elite shooter at the collegiate level nor an elite athlete.

  9. #34
    Veteran J_Paco's Avatar
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    He's moved into the top 10 in another board:

    Michigan sop re Franz Wagner, younger brother of Washington Wizards big Moritz Wagner, has a very unique skill set who looked sharp for Alba Berlin and on the FIBA circuit for Germany before coming to the United States.

    Still just 19 years old, Wagner fills the stat-sheet in several different aspects of the game as a 3-and-D option in the frontcourt with some ball-handling ability. He can score from all over the floor and he can also play well as a tertiary playmaker who rarely turns the ball over. As a defender, he leads the Big Ten in defensive win shares and defensive box plus-minus.

    Overall, according to Bart Torvik, his box plus-minus ranks as the best mark among all sop res.

    https://ftw.usatoday.com/lists/nba-m...pects-sleepers

    But nah, no star potential because J Paco says so.
    What is he elite at in college? He plays great defense at the college level, but that may not transfer to the NBA with much, much better athletes and compe ion.

    Ball handling and playmaking are a plus, yet we have enough guys that can handle those duties for the time being. I hope you're right about him, but would prefer a better prospect on the Spurs.

  10. #35
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    Good catch on this kid, he's really flying up mocks now. On friday Tankathon had him at 44 and now he's sitting at 12. Do you think he has the strength to play the 4 full time?

  11. #36
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    Good catch on this kid, he's really flying up mocks now. On friday Tankathon had him at 44 and now he's sitting at 12. Do you think he has the strength to play the 4 full time?
    I can't think of many PF's in today's game who impose their strength to gain the advantage on offense, so yes I think he has the strength. Only times we've seen bully ball from strong forwards were LeBron and Kawhi. I don't think there's anyone who can stop those guys anyway (though Keldon did an OK job). Last five PF's the Spurs have seen: Isaac Bonga, Luka Doncic (plays PG but pretty much was their biggest and most mobile player in line-ups), Draymond Green, Robert Covington, PJ Tucker.... I don't see how Wagner would be outmatched by these guys.

  12. #37
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    Dejounte, guys you might want to look for some footage on : Yoan Makoundou, Cholet Basket (France); Leo Menalo, Stella Azzuri (Italy)

  13. #38
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    If anyone wants to watch these players more closely and not be like those guys ( J_Paco ) who don't spend a minute watching guys to gather an informed opinion and instead compares players based on the color of their skin...

    Here are full games to understand Wagner's impact on games:



    Compare and contrast with Scottie Barnes:



    Scottie was someone I was extremely high on early on in the process. After watching a couple full games, it is night and day between the basketball IQ of Scottie and Wagner. Scottie looks like current Lonnie Walker on offense: unimpactful when he doesn't have the ball in his hands, falls asleep on defense (caught him WAY out of position several times). It was disappointing to watch. His calling card is man to man defense, which I still think Wagner does a better job at. Scottie's got that KG presence on the court-- all bark, which makes him appear like he's got a big game to back it up but more often fails. I hope he can improve as the college season goes on, but it's not looking good.

  14. #39
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    Dude, it's okay if you like this kid. I just don't believe he's what the team needs and that is a kid with possible "superstar" upside.

    He seems like he could be a solid glue guy or possibly a good starting 3/4. Most guys of his build and skillset without elite athleticism either flame out or are role players in the league (Sam Dekker, Doug McDermott, etc.).

    And, again, the 2020 draft was historically weak and their 4 "better" fits (Williams, Advija, Wiseman & Smith) were off the board. I didn't like any of the prospects remaining more than Vassell.

    I hope this kid pans out and becomes a better pro than his older brother, but he isn't they type of player we need until we find our next star (we have enough role players).

    And I'm not gonna knock his game or over analyze a bunch match ups in January, when the big sites haven't given their in-depth mock drafts, yet. And March Madness and the combine could also play a part in how things are slotted. We'll see......

    It's great that you are high on the kid, but I'd like a more athletic combo forward or an elite shooting wing instead. Kid is a jack of all trades, master of none type that isn't an elite shooter at the collegiate level nor an elite athlete.
    The problem is/was never about whether you thinking he's a good fit on this Spurs team.

    I am entirely focused on your comment saying 'he's a second rounder' or 'he will be undrafted'. It was nonsense.

    And also, let's be real... if this was a black guy doing the same thing, you'd be high on him. His numbers and his play are both spectacular. Michigan is a top 3 college basketball team in the nation. This isn't about whether his athletic ability would translate, is it? I get it. The ratio of black stars to white stars is big. I don't look at color regardless. I spend hours on this because it's 1) fun for me and 2) I want to have a sincere look at their overall play instead of relying on my own preconceived notion of what a star looks like, what I read from scouting reports, or watching highlights.
    Last edited by Dejounte; 01-25-2021 at 01:34 PM.

  15. #40
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    What is he elite at in college? He plays great defense at the college level, but that may not transfer to the NBA with much, much better athletes and compe ion.

    Ball handling and playmaking are a plus, yet we have enough guys that can handle those duties for the time being. I hope you're right about him, but would prefer a better prospect on the Spurs.
    I would understand if you had these concerns when he plays like that in high school, but college? If he plays great defense in college that should usually translate to the NBA

  16. #41
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    The problem is/was never about whether you thinking he's a good fit on this Spurs team.

    I am entirely focused on your comment saying 'he's a second rounder' or 'he will be undrafted'. It was nonsense.

    And also, let's be real... if this was a black guy doing the same thing, you'd be high on him. His numbers and his play are both spectacular. Michigan is a top 3 college basketball team in the nation. This isn't about whether his athletic ability would translate, is it? I get it. The ratio of black stars to white stars is big. I don't look at color regardless. I spend hours on this because it's 1) fun for me and 2) I want to have a sincere look at their overall play instead of relying on my own preconceived notion of what a star looks like, what I read from scouting reports, or watching highlights.
    That was an error on my part based him not being on my radar (from the mocks I've seen before the season). That is a good thing to be wrong about and some guys play has them climb up draft boards. No biggie, really (especially when I stated I was incorrect in a previous post).

    His rebounding, steals, blocks and advanced stats (or the ones you've posted) are all solid or great. The Spurs need more of a potential two - way monster at the 4. Or a versatile 3/4 with the shot creation and skillset of a Nephew, PG13 or Jimmy Butler.

    I don't think any of those players are this kids ceiling & that's who we should be hoping and looking for.
    Last edited by J_Paco; 01-25-2021 at 04:27 PM.

  17. #42
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    I would understand if you had these concerns when he plays like that in high school, but college? If he plays great defense in college that should usually translate to the NBA
    Well, the reality is that everyone's defense doesn't translate. Perfect example is KAT & Wiggins, who were both solid defensive players in college (or it wasn't a knock), and have been poor at the next level.

    DeJounte wasn't known as a plus defender in college (more an inefficient chucker with "defensive potential") and has become that in the NBA.

  18. #43
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    Well, the reality is that everyone's defense doesn't translate. Perfect example is KAT & Wiggins, who were both solid defensive players in college (or it wasn't a knock), and have been poor at the next level.

    DeJounte wasn't known as a plus defender in college (more an inefficient chucker with "defensive potential") and has become that in the NBA.
    yeah but they weren't elite. If a player is an elite defender in college, that will translate

  19. #44
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    I like C/PF Jay Huff from Virginia in the 2nd.

  20. #45
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    yeah but they weren't elite. If a player is an elite defender in college, that will translate
    Jesus Christ. He's "elite" in the Big Ten conference but we'll need to see it night in, night out against NBA level athletes.

    Will his lateral quickness, leaping ability and anticipation translate to the NBA? Those are all legitimate concerns no matter how much you love his defense in college.

    And KAT was considered a very good defender in college with the "potential" to be elite. You can dismiss the fact that he's actually a poor defender, now, but prior to stepping on a NBA court he was also considered a plus defender.

    Defensively is where Towns separates himself as a prospect, and where his one year at Kentucky really helped him improve the most. He has the size and strength to defend centers effectively, but also the length and mobility to contain most 4s, giving him terrific positional versatility that is highly coveted in today's NBA. Towns has terrific timing as a shot-blocker, with his 4.4 blocks per-40 minutes ranking fifth best among DX Top-100 prospects. He covers ground nicely, being agile enough to hedge screens out to the perimeter and still make it back into the paint in time to make a play at the rim. It's not rare to see him take charges, close out effectively on shooters on the perimeter, or even switch out onto guards in pick and roll situations. He's also an excellent rebounder thanks to his terrific size, length and instincts, grabbing 13 boards per-40 minutes pace adjusted, the third best rate among DX Top-100 prospects. - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/article/...reakdown-4868/ ©DraftExpress
    And Wiggins was too in college:

    Wiggins uses his athleticism best on defense. He's extremely quick laterally and can recover back to his man faster than anyone in the draft. He's fast enough to stay in front of smaller guards and tall enough to guard bigger wings. Wiggins was essentially unstoppable on the break at the college level, scoring 1.3 points per possession in transition -- fourth best in DraftExpress' Top 100. He can catch oops from the wing or handle the ball himself.
    Whoops, there goes your theory that defense just "translates" to the NBA....
    Last edited by J_Paco; 01-26-2021 at 10:54 AM.

  21. #46
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    Yeah I remember Wiggins defense being well regarded leading up to the draft. Worth noting he is playing much better D this year.

  22. #47
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    I like C/PF Jay Huff from Virginia in the 2nd.
    Spurs get Huff in the 2nd rd that would be fantastic! Teams would be scared of by his age, but he's plug and play off your bench no question. Good wingspan, rebounds, good roller for lobs, but can hit from 17 feet to 3pt range if you leave him open. Finishes around the rim, will dunk on your head and good shot blocker and contest. He's not the most athletic, but he works hard for everything. He's also a good passer from the high post to shooters or getting the ball movement started with the hockey assist. Nightmare is Lakers draft him at 29 or 30 as Gasol replacement.

  23. #48
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    Just watched the Purdue game. His passing is really impressive. Good motor, plays smart, and the ball doesn't stick to his hands. He seems to make quick decisions to pass, drive, or shoot a 3.

    I'd honestly take him over Scottie Barnes as I can't see a 45% FT shooter ever being a decent shooter.

  24. #49
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    Just watched the Purdue game. His passing is really impressive. Good motor, plays smart, and the ball doesn't stick to his hands. He seems to make quick decisions to pass, drive, or shoot a 3.

    I'd honestly take him over Scottie Barnes as I can't see a 45% FT shooter ever being a decent shooter.
    Quick decision-making/ processor speed is an underrated trait among NBA players.

    Players who fit this category: Derrick White, Manu Ginobili, Devin Vassell, Kawhi Leonard...

    Kudos to you for taking the time to watch the player.

    Here are more full games of Michigan for you or anybody:







    P.S. I didn't realize Scottie Barnes' free throw shooting was that horrendous.

  25. #50
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    He was after his slow start during the college season, he's amped it up a notch though.
    New mocks have him going 13 to “The San Antonio Spurs”

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