View Poll Results: What's the best choice ?

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  • Andre Drummond

    8 18.60%
  • John Collins

    22 51.16%
  • Richaun Holmes

    7 16.28%
  • Lauri markannen

    6 13.95%
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  1. #26
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Signing John Collins to a max just extends what the Spurs have had the past two seasons with DeRozan-- a highly paid, high usage rate guy as your #1 option, not setting the world on fire with defense, leading to slightly-better-than-average results-- a playoff spot without HCA, and an early exit. Collins and DeRozan together on the floor for 30+ mpg each in the future would guarantee the Spurs are not an elite or even average defensive team. I think there's a natural tendency when we hear 20/10 guy to think of Timmy, but Collins will never have the effect on winning that Timmy did. He won't even have a Manu level influence, and giving him the max only raises the statistical probability that the Spurs don't eventually max out a true max player.
    Why on Earth are you assuming DeRozan would be back?

    And saying Collins isn't as good as Tim was is meaningless. He could be Al Jefferson with a three-point shot and still a tremendous get for the club.

  2. #27
    The Timeless One Leetonidas's Avatar
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    Easily Collins. If Spurs actually got him, and LMA/DD don't return in the summer, Spurs would actually have a pretty solid SL that can cover up his weakness on D. him and Poodle would be a decent starting FC

  3. #28
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    All things being equal I like Collins, Lauri, Holmes, then Drummond but all things aren't equal. Collins is the only max guy on that list and I'd be willing to pay that for him but, if I could get Lauri at $18M per I'd rather have that than a max for Collins and use the difference elsewhere.

    Slightly OT- I'd still love to get Woodard from Sacto because I believe he can swing between the 3 and 4 depending on lineup and really add depth for a cheap price.

  4. #29
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    Why on Earth are you assuming DeRozan would be back?

    And saying Collins isn't as good as Tim was is meaningless. He could be Al Jefferson with a three-point shot and still a tremendous get for the club.
    And having Al Jefferson would repeat the last three years. I think you missed his point. Marginally improving this team's floor and barely improving its ceiling is a recipe for disaster and a waste of time. Seems people are content with that.

  5. #30
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    Easily Collins. If Spurs actually got him, and LMA/DD don't return in the summer, Spurs would actually have a pretty solid SL that can cover up his weakness on D. him and Poodle would be a decent starting FC
    Sorry but how can they cover up Collins' weakness on defense when they can't even do that for Aldridge?

  6. #31
    Veteran R. DeMurre's Avatar
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    Why on Earth are you assuming DeRozan would be back?

    And saying Collins isn't as good as Tim was is meaningless. He could be Al Jefferson with a three-point shot and still a tremendous get for the club.
    You yourself have posted scenarios where resigning DeRozan makes sense... I'm not assuming anything. Simply pointing out that a pairing of those two would be less than optimal. I'll be happy to disagree with the idea of Al Jefferson + a three point shot being a tremendous get. He'd be worse at switching than Drummond.

  7. #32
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    And having Al Jefferson would repeat the last three years. I think you missed his point. Marginally improving this team's floor and barely improving its ceiling is a recipe for disaster and a waste of time. Seems people are content with that.
    I know you didn't make it, but Jefferson is a poor comp. Stoudemire is a better one.

    Seems the Spurs are.


    Sorry but how can they cover up Collins' weakness on defense when they can't even do that for Aldridge?
    The trickle down effect: Poeltl, Collins, White and Johnson sliding down a position, would be replacing Aldridge, DeRozan, Walker and Johnson playing up a position, in the starting lineup.

    Of course, Collins would play some small ball five minutes, in which they'd likely struggle mightily defensively.

  8. #33
    The Timeless One Leetonidas's Avatar
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    Sorry but how can they cover up Collins' weakness on defense when they can't even do that for Aldridge?
    Poeltl starting next to him along with Murray/White/KJ. KJ is still improving but we know Murray and White are plus defenders and so is Jak. LMA is irrelevant in this discussion because Jak does not start next to to him and LMA is a slow fossil compared to Collins. Apples to oranges man

    It's hard to cover up LMA because he is too old and slow to do anything but play C and he has ing Derozan starting next to him at PF

  9. #34
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    I know you didn't make it, but Jefferson is a poor comp. Stoudemire is a better one.

    Seems the Spurs are.




    The trickle down effect: Poeltl, Collins, White and Johnson sliding down a position, would be replacing Aldridge, DeRozan, Walker and Johnson playing up a position, in the starting lineup.

    Of course, Collins would play some small ball five minutes, in which they'd likely struggle mightily defensively.
    I suppose. I guess I'm only happy if the outcome includes signing or drafting a defensive ace behind Collins, thereby moving Collins up or down a position whenever the situation demands it. In that scenario, drafting a 3.5 would be ideal. Salivating over Franz Wagner right now, he would be the perfect fit. It's not like rookies start right away anyway. Fine, you got me.

    Still have my doubts how Collins is a step towards contention though. The next few drafts will be critical in finding that first/second option if the current players on the roster aren't it.

  10. #35
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    You yourself have posted scenarios where resigning DeRozan makes sense... I'm not assuming anything. Simply pointing out that a pairing of those two would be less than optimal. I'll be happy to disagree with the idea of Al Jefferson + a three point shot being a tremendous get. He'd be worse at switching than Drummond.
    You are judging a Collins signing based on his fit with DeRozan, when being able to sign Collins is pretty dependent on the team not re-signing DeRozan. It's a weird assumption.

    And Jefferson with a modern shot chart is definitely better than Drummond.

  11. #36
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    And having Al Jefferson would repeat the last three years. I think you missed his point. Marginally improving this team's floor and barely improving its ceiling is a recipe for disaster and a waste of time. Seems people are content with that.
    "Repeating the last three years" isn't a bad thing. Being a solid playoff contender is fine. Being bad is not a prerequisite to being a contender. Collins would be the best player on the Spurs. Their ceiling with him is much higher than their ceiling without him.

  12. #37
    Veteran R. DeMurre's Avatar
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    You are judging a Collins signing based on his fit with DeRozan, when being able to sign Collins is pretty dependent on the team not re-signing DeRozan. It's a weird assumption.
    No, I'm not. That's your assumption. I think Collins is a bad fit as the highest paid, highest usage rate guy-- similar to what DeRozan has been the last two years-- and it would only be that much worse with DeRozan still around. What happens with DeRozan wouldn't affect my view on Collins, but again, I'm 100% against resigning him, whereas you have posted numerous times about scenarios where resigning is a reasonable move.

  13. #38
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    No, I'm not. That's your assumption.
    Yes it is. You're the one who brought him into this by talking about his fit. Why not talk about his fit with Aldridge or Gay if you're just going to talk about old guys who could be re-signed? Blaming me for it doesn't make sense, because I haven't been talking about scenarios where re-signing DeMar AND signing big-name free agents make sense. It's not really workable financially and White's extension, which is why I haven't been assuming anything like that.

    I'm 100% against resigning him, whereas you have posted numerous times about scenarios where resigning is a reasonable move.
    Re-signing DeRozan can be a reasonable move, depending on what else they do during the rest of the year/off-season. He's still better than the other guys on the team, and the redundancy allows for the club to have options when making trades. I'm a huge proponent in them cleaning up the glut of wings they have, and I believe there are a lot of different ways to go about that. Letting DeRozan walk is part of a lot of them. Trading Murray, Walker, White or Johnson is a part of a lot of others. Deciding to make small-ball work is another potential route. My preference is to trade Murray or at least White, extend Walker and sign Collins unless they win the lotto and take some phenom PF. That gives them a strong SL, a manageable long-term cap and more assets to fill out their team. But I'm going to still talk about the numerous other ways they could do things because I'm not so arrogant as to believe that PATFO can only be right if they follow my plan.

  14. #39
    Believe. PrimeMinister's Avatar
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    Couple of things:

    The Al Jefferson comp I don't like both for position and play style. Big Al was a post up first kind of guy who you called a post up for to get him going.

    John Collins is an underrated player in his offensive positioning and ability to be a huge part of an offense without really having to call his number. He finds himself in the right place offensively routinely- he is always lurking and reading the defense even in off ball situations and he rarely seems to be resigned to sitting in the corner or away from the action. Not to say he hogs the ball, because he doesnt, in fact he is decisive and quick in deciding what read he wants to take from the defense. He's the type of player that can get you 20 points on dump off passes from getting himself open and cutting at the right time, but he's also able to face it up and create for himself when necessary. He has a ton of versatility and is a natural letting the game come to him and picking his spots.

    Comparing him defensively to LA doesn't do justice to how terrible Lamarcus is at this point on that end. Collins at least has the same benefit of athleticism, to an even higher degree, that Lamarcus used to have that allowed him to recover and make up for his poor defensive positioning. He is an adequate help defender at the 4 position and has the explosiveness to contest shots effectively at the rim. He's naturally a 4 that is comfortable playing next to a 5- we're seeing how he can fit next to a player like Poeltl in the minutes he gets with Clint capela. In the right situations he has the versatility to slide over to the 5 and that flexibility would give us a lot of intriguing options. DJ/White/Vassell/Keldon/Collins for example has the potential to be a death line up that could give a lot, a lot of teams trouble. You can switch everywhere, have capable rebounders at every position, the right mix of scoring and defense. Obviously that is a situation dependent line up- but we are in desperate need of versatile bigs who can stretch the floor, move their feet, roll to the basket, and switch against teams like the Warriors who are super fast and heavy on screen action.

    Collins was my project to watch this year and he has blown away what I thought he was and could be for our team.

  15. #40
    Veteran R. DeMurre's Avatar
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    Re-signing DeRozan can be a reasonable move, depending on what else they do during the rest of the year/off-season. He's still better than the other guys on the team, and the redundancy allows for the club to have options when making trades. I'm a huge proponent in them cleaning up the glut of wings they have, and I believe there are a lot of different ways to go about that. Letting DeRozan walk is part of a lot of them. Trading Murray, Walker, White or Johnson is a part of a lot of others. Deciding to make small-ball work is another potential route. My preference is to trade Murray or at least White, extend Walker and sign Collins unless they win the lotto and take some phenom PF. That gives them a strong SL, a manageable long-term cap and more assets to fill out their team. But I'm going to still talk about the numerous other ways they could do things because I'm not so arrogant as to believe that PATFO can only be right if they follow my plan.
    If that's what you truly believe, than fine-- have fun with that. Resigning DeRozan blocks any path to a future championship-- that's my opinion. His solid record of playing on teams for more than a decade who are better with him off the floor than on seems pretty irrefutable to me, and this year so far his negative impact is even greater than usual. The negative effect is magnified in the playoffs, where DeRozan boasts an almost unheard of entirely negative chart for every single playoff year he's been involved in, as opposing coaches target him to an even greater degree than they do during the regular season. The only reason to keep DeRozan is entirely a sentimental one, and as far as sentiment goes, I'd rather return him to his hometown of L.A. and let him enjoy that.

  16. #41
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I think DeRozan has limitations and that there are scenarios where SA could move on and improve. But I think he gets way too little credit and way too much blame for the Spurs' performance on this forum. He gets blamed for his offense while Murray and Johnson get praise for being worse versions of him on offense. He gets blamed for his defense when Walker has been way worse for most of his time on the court this year. He gets blamed for his on-court theatrics, and I definitely agree that he's unreasonably bad there, but I don't think there are a lot of legit high-culture guys on the roster at all right now.

    The Spurs should stand to actually build around some of their players instead of piling guys into lineups and using antiquated adjustments to try to make it work. The amoeba offense is very bad for long-term growth. At best, it covers up the obvious half-court weaknesses, but I'd argue not a single player is maximized under it. In the very least, Pop should not have run this offense without trading Aldridge and DeRozan. If you can't build a system to use them well, then there's no point in keeping them. Then at least you could argue that this offense would let them see what they have in the guys in terms of creation so that in a more structured future year, they could set up the option hierarchy.

  17. #42
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    The point of the Al Jefferson comparison was pretty much a worst-case scenario. Dude was pretty much only a 20/10 guy with no other redeeming qualities. Without a three, there's no way Jefferson would average that now, so I added in to get him to be a bare-minimum guy. My point was that even such a player is valuable and relatively rare in today's league. Collins is significantly more mobile defensively and dynamic offensively. That's why he'd fit in well with the young players already on the team.

  18. #43
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    I think DeRozan has limitations and that there are scenarios where SA could move on and improve. But I think he gets way too little credit and way too much blame for the Spurs' performance on this forum. He gets blamed for his offense while Murray and Johnson get praise for being worse versions of him on offense. He gets blamed for his defense when Walker has been way worse for most of his time on the court this year. He gets blamed for his on-court theatrics, and I definitely agree that he's unreasonably bad there, but I don't think there are a lot of legit high-culture guys on the roster at all right now.

    The Spurs should stand to actually build around some of their players instead of piling guys into lineups and using antiquated adjustments to try to make it work. The amoeba offense is very bad for long-term growth. At best, it covers up the obvious half-court weaknesses, but I'd argue not a single player is maximized under it. In the very least, Pop should not have run this offense without trading Aldridge and DeRozan. If you can't build a system to use them well, then there's no point in keeping them. Then at least you could argue that this offense would let them see what they have in the guys in terms of creation so that in a more structured future year, they could set up the option hierarchy.
    Murray and Johnson hardly do the same thing as DeMar. Makes me question if you actually watch the games. It's obvious the ball sticks with DeMar than it does with any other player. The other players you mentioned are quicker to act with the ball and do their move than DeMar ever does. What the are you watching?

    Early on the season, it was different. Seems he reverted back to selfish basketball.

  19. #44
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Murray and Johnson hardly do the same thing as DeMar. Makes me question if you actually watch the games. It's obvious the ball sticks with DeMar than it does with any other player. The other players you mentioned are quicker to act with the ball and do their move than DeMar ever does. What the are you watching?

    Early on the season, it was different. Seems he reverted back to selfish basketball.
    "The ball sticking" is a really unimportant, subjective analysis. DeRozan plays at a slower pace than Murray, but they both break off possessions to iso at a similar rate. DeJounte leads the team in unassisted-shot percentage. DeRozan is right behind him, but he's still below him, and DeMar's assist percentage is higher than Murray's, so there's no real evidence that he fails to pass. DMDR is the best offensive player on the team, so if the ball is going to stick, it should be with him. That doesn't mean that I don't want them to pass it, but offenses work by leveraging hard shots by the best scorers to make opportunities for the role-players. Sometimes folks are going to need to iso, and when that happens, it should be the better scorer.

    I'm not going to comment on whether DeRozan has gotten more selfish statistically. That's harder to quantify without snapshots of his number at various points in the year. What the numbers we have right now suggest is that Murray has gotten/taken a first-option suite of touches, and DeRozan has been the 1A/second option. Everyone else on the team has been assisted on more than 50 percent of their makes (even Johnson, and that's a different discussion worth having). Trying to pretend like DeRozan is some ball-hog and Murray isn't doesn't really fly.

  20. #45
    Erryday I'm Hustlin' Robz4000's Avatar
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    Don't particularly want any of them honestly, much less for the max.

  21. #46
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    What about Montrezl Harrell or Serge Ibaka? They will both have player options next year i think, maybe the Spurs could lure one to come over? Both would be great additions.

    Ibaka is not afraid to abuse nephew both physically (bloody mouth) and mentally (eating penis) so id take him just on that tbh.

    Harrell may not be happy where he is at. Would be just what the Spurs need especially if Spurs can teach him some defense. He had a strange tweet recently saying “Money don’t bring happiness, you can’t buy a piece of mind and love!” he had other tweets saying how he is in the best shape of his life maybe a bit of self advertising to other teams?

  22. #47
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    For me, if the year were to end right now, it'd be Collins for the max, Markkannen on a speculative deal and then using the space to take back bad money for assets. I don't really have any interest in also-rans with the way the young guys are playing right now. They aren't in a place where you worry about filling in the cracks around them with vets.

  23. #48
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    I suppose. I guess I'm only happy if the outcome includes signing or drafting a defensive ace behind Collins, thereby moving Collins up or down a position whenever the situation demands it. In that scenario, drafting a 3.5 would be ideal. Salivating over Franz Wagner right now, he would be the perfect fit. It's not like rookies start right away anyway. Fine, you got me.

    Still have my doubts how Collins is a step towards contention though. The next few drafts will be critical in finding that first/second option if the current players on the roster aren't it.
    Poeltl is basically what you're describing. His defensive metrics probably wouldn't be as good playing more and primarily against front line players, but he'll probably top out as a mid-high 20s mpg player due to a combination of foul trouble, lack of stamina and relative limitations.

    Definitely the more ideal modern four is the elusive 3.5, which would still be a need, just one more likely to be filled with a lesser profile one.

    I do too, but he checks enough boxes to make me think he could be their number one target.

  24. #49
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    Can they pay Collins & Allen/Drummond, if they want to extend Keldon, Lonnie & Devin after their rookie contracts? If they want one of Allen/Drummond they have to trade Poeltl, because it makes no sense to have him on the team then.
    Devin should not even be brought up when we talk about money. He is in year 1 of a 4 year deal. So he won't even be up for a contract until guys like Murray and White deals are up. Same with Keldon, he is in year 2 of a 4 year rookie deal...so long way to go. What we pay these guys in the future should have exactly 0 bearing on what we would pay any player we sign in free agency.

    The most expensive of the options is Collins with Allen because they are both still very young players with a lot of upside with a salary cap that post covid is going to probably skyrocket. Collins might truly get a max and Allen mike command in the 18 to 21 range a year.

    Drummond and Holmes can be had for cheap. They are the players they are. There is not hidden skill or talent or upside to get out of them. They won't command top dollar. It would be more about if they want to play here and play in the role.

    It's hard to get a read on what it would cost to get Lauri. Not a possible max like Collins but if he finished the season strong all it takes is for somebody to start throwing around Dirk comparisons and all of a sudden it might take closer to a max to get Lauri than one would like.

    It might legit take a max offer to get Collins because anot

  25. #50
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    http://www.basketballinsiders.com/th...cks-to-pursue/

    I thought this article would be relevant to the discussion. It is just the authors opinion that NY should target Collins now by trade instead of the offseason. It might be relevant to our options going forward as well..

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