View Poll Results: What's the best choice ?

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  • Andre Drummond

    8 18.60%
  • John Collins

    22 51.16%
  • Richaun Holmes

    7 16.28%
  • Lauri markannen

    6 13.95%
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  1. #51
    Believe.
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    I suppose. I guess I'm only happy if the outcome includes signing or drafting a defensive ace behind Collins, thereby moving Collins up or down a position whenever the situation demands it. In that scenario, drafting a 3.5 would be ideal. Salivating over Franz Wagner right now, he would be the perfect fit. It's not like rookies start right away anyway. Fine, you got me.

    Still have my doubts how Collins is a step towards contention though. The next few drafts will be critical in finding that first/second option if the current players on the roster aren't it.
    I mean with all the young players on this team draft picks are going to be less and less valuable, especially when you factor in the law of averages. Do you know how man teams in the history of the nba have signed 5 consecutive 1st round picks to a second contract ? The answer is 0. So this tells you that between Dejounte, White, Walker, Luka, Keldon, and Vassell, one of these guys is not going to be on the team past their rookie deal just because it's hard to get that many players who play for you to want to keep playing for you. We know Dejounte and Derrick are going to be around, so now we are down to one of those 4 not being here in the next 2 to 4 years. Putting more emphasis on the draft just turns that number from 4 to 5. Off the top of my head is there another team in the nba who even has it's last 6 first round picks on its team ? I can't imagine that answer to be yes except for maybe the Hawks.

  2. #52
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    I mean with all the young players on this team draft picks are going to be less and less valuable, especially when you factor in the law of averages. Do you know how man teams in the history of the nba have signed 5 consecutive 1st round picks to a second contract ? The answer is 0. So this tells you that between Dejounte, White, Walker, Luka, Keldon, and Vassell, one of these guys is not going to be on the team past their rookie deal just because it's hard to get that many players who play for you to want to keep playing for you. We know Dejounte and Derrick are going to be around, so now we are down to one of those 4 not being here in the next 2 to 4 years. Putting more emphasis on the draft just turns that number from 4 to 5. Off the top of my head is there another team in the nba who even has it's last 6 first round picks on its team ? I can't imagine that answer to be yes except for maybe the Hawks.
    Another way the Spurs can trailblaze. They have been the first for many things, why not this one? I think it's possible, especially if you can keep their ego in check and have them believe in the Spurs way.

  3. #53
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    http://www.basketballinsiders.com/th...cks-to-pursue/

    I thought this article would be relevant to the discussion. It is just the authors opinion that NY should target Collins now by trade instead of the offseason. It might be relevant to our options going forward as well..
    I don't follow the Knicks, but can someone explain why they don't see Randle as their long-term forward?

  4. #54
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    "The ball sticking" is a really unimportant, subjective analysis. DeRozan plays at a slower pace than Murray, but they both break off possessions to iso at a similar rate. DeJounte leads the team in unassisted-shot percentage. DeRozan is right behind him, but he's still below him, and DeMar's assist percentage is higher than Murray's, so there's no real evidence that he fails to pass. DMDR is the best offensive player on the team, so if the ball is going to stick, it should be with him. That doesn't mean that I don't want them to pass it, but offenses work by leveraging hard shots by the best scorers to make opportunities for the role-players. Sometimes folks are going to need to iso, and when that happens, it should be the better scorer.

    I'm not going to comment on whether DeRozan has gotten more selfish statistically. That's harder to quantify without snapshots of his number at various points in the year. What the numbers we have right now suggest is that Murray has gotten/taken a first-option suite of touches, and DeRozan has been the 1A/second option. Everyone else on the team has been assisted on more than 50 percent of their makes (even Johnson, and that's a different discussion worth having). Trying to pretend like DeRozan is some ball-hog and Murray isn't doesn't really fly.
    DeMar passing is not the issue. It's easy to gain an assist when you hold onto the ball until the last second to pass it to the next player. It's him handling the ball for as long as he does that's the issue. It's not fine that the ball should stick with him all because he's the best offensive player. There's ways to generate points without needing to rely on a single good offensive player, especially when other players can't gain rhythm and plays worse as a result of said player not passing the ball around. I never disagreed with him going ISO, that's his game and he should do it. It's about finding the right balance to do so, which he was on the right track until the last three games or so. Looking at assist percentages in this context is pointless.

    For the first four games of the season:

    DeMar averaged 43.5 passes per game (not assists)

    For the last four games of the season:

    DeMar averaged 32.5 passes per game (not assists)

    That is a big drop off and shows his selfish play.

  5. #55
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    DeMar passing is not the issue. It's easy to gain an assist when you hold onto the ball until the last second to pass it to the next player. It's him handling the ball for as long as he does that's the issue. It's not fine that the ball should stick with him all because he's the best offensive player. There's ways to generate points without needing to rely on a single good offensive player, especially when other players can't gain rhythm and plays worse as a result of said player not passing the ball around. I never disagreed with him going ISO, that's his game and he should do it. It's about finding the right balance to do so, which he was on the right track until the last three games or so. Looking at assist percentages in this context is pointless.

    For the first four games of the season:

    DeMar averaged 43.5 passes per game (not assists)

    For the last four games of the season:

    DeMar averaged 32.5 passes per game (not assists)

    That is a big drop off and shows his selfish play.
    Eh. Murray in that same range is leading the team in touches by a wide margin has had the worst PPP of any player on the team. Can DeRozan pass more? I guess. But Murray is totally the one who's dominating the ball, using possessions and doing little with them. Maybe the reason why guys can't get into rhythm is that they are watching one guy hold the ball too long and the other rush up bad shots. And DeJounte has been holding the ball a lot too. Passes or not, he's up to almost five seconds per touch too. Him, DMDR and Patty have all used a lot of clock with the ball. That's not surprising given the lack of structure of the offense and the personalities of the guys with the ball.

    This whole conversation started off because I said that folks blame DeRozan for things the other guys are also doing. I think the subsequent discussion has highlighted this. You looked at the same stats that I did, saw Murray being a closer second to DeRozan in this usage stats than any third is to them and still only mentioned the stat that made DeRozan seem like "the problem". My point was never that one group is completely at fault or whatever. It's that the offense right now encourages this inefficient play and that folks should be more objective in how they view what we are watching rather than thinking one player is responsible for it. All of this is on Pop for calling the game he is and what he's telling them to do.

  6. #56
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Signing John Collins to a max just extends what the Spurs have had the past two seasons with DeRozan-- a highly paid, high usage rate guy as your #1 option, not setting the world on fire with defense, leading to slightly-better-than-average results-- a playoff spot without HCA, and an early exit. Collins and DeRozan together on the floor for 30+ mpg each in the future would guarantee the Spurs are not an elite or even average defensive team. I think there's a natural tendency when we hear 20/10 guy to think of Timmy, but Collins will never have the effect on winning that Timmy did. He won't even have a Manu level influence, and giving him the max only raises the statistical probability that the Spurs don't eventually max out a true max player.
    i'd agree that a collins signing would suck if paired with a derozan re-signing. but im ok with a post-derozan spurs
    Last edited by spurraider21; 01-22-2021 at 07:36 PM.

  7. #57
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    I really enjoy reading all those posts.

    A few things : if we could nagg our future inside guy during the draft, im the first who would be happy but we don't have any clue about next year draft. Using Cap space for a Big is a more likely option than drafting mobley for example.

    So my board is :

    Holmes :cheaper, the real complement for this team. On offense he will take what is coming and He will give you what the spurs need a lot : blocks, hustle, energy, rebounds...

    Then I have markannen, he is the best potential of that list imo.
    He is really mobile, good shooter. I really like his ceilling offensively.

    Collins who is on the same page with markannen. I like him but for the max, im not totally sure.

    And last Drummond, I think he would be a Nice option but he may want to be the centerpiece of the team and that could be a little bad for our youth.

  8. #58
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    I don't follow the Knicks, but can someone explain why they don't see Randle as their long-term forward?
    I think because they see him as an undersized 5

  9. #59
    Pronouns: Your/Dad TheGreatYacht's Avatar
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    Drummond is about to have giant game against the Nets. Can’t believe he’s not leading this poll bigly. Most disrespected big in the league, even more than Vucevic.

  10. #60
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    I think because they see him as an undersized 5
    nah, this article definitely has nothing to do with reality inside the front office, just conjectures based on nothing, I really doubt that the knicks get rid of one of the most versatile players in the world, mainly because nobody sees or saw him as a center .

  11. #61
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    No doubt Collins is worth the money. Not sure of his contract status but I'd go all in. give them LA and JP + a first.... who cares.

    WTF is up with Kelden? Another air-ball?

  12. #62
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    Actually thought you were meaning the best option in crunch-time for SA.

  13. #63
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    Drummond is about to have giant game against the Nets. Can’t believe he’s not leading this poll bigly. Most disrespected big in the league, even more than Vucevic.
    Yeah like I said the more I watch him the more I like him. His rebounding and just raw power around the rim is giving every team enormous problems. You almost have to concede a layup to any guard the cavs have because if you take one step to many to challenge it they just either lob it or shuffle it to Drummond and its either a layup dunk or foul.

    19 and 16 in 27 minutes. Nets have more basketball talent but they do not have anyone on their team who can remotely stop Drummond from dominating around the rim. If the nets and cavs played a 7 game series starting on monday the cavs might win that series and it might not even be that hard since they have a guy who the other team can't guard physically, can't keep off the glass, can't really take advantage of in the pick and roll for some reason...

    Just a total nightmare matchup for them. Deandre Jordan isn't going to get it done for them as the only defensive big they have. They need to make some other roster moves, cause if they have to run into Philly with Embiid playing like the best version of himself they are going to be in trouble.

  14. #64
    Veteran r0drig0lac's Avatar
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    Yeah like I said the more I watch him the more I like him. His rebounding and just raw power around the rim is giving every team enormous problems. You almost have to concede a layup to any guard the cavs have because if you take one step to many to challenge it they just either lob it or shuffle it to Drummond and its either a layup dunk or foul.

    19 and 16 in 27 minutes. Nets have more basketball talent but they do not have anyone on their team who can remotely stop Drummond from dominating around the rim. If the nets and cavs played a 7 game series starting on monday the cavs might win that series and it might not even be that hard since they have a guy who the other team can't guard physically, can't keep off the glass, can't really take advantage of in the pick and roll for some reason...

    Just a total nightmare matchup for them. Deandre Jordan isn't going to get it done for them as the only defensive big they have. They need to make some other roster moves, cause if they have to run into Philly with Embiid playing like the best version of himself they are going to be in trouble.
    he is one of the greatest screeners and rebounders in basketball history, obviously he would be an update on anything we have today on the frontcourt.

  15. #65
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    I'd love to see what Richaun Holmes does with teammates who actually help him on defense & elsewhere. Right now, he's the only starter on the Kings that doesn't have a negative defensive rating:

    DBPM

    Holmes: 0.0
    Fox: -1.4
    Hield: -2.2
    Barnes: -1.5
    Bagley: -3.1

    Generally speaking, he's by far the most effective player on the Kings:

    WS/48 (League average is about 0.10)

    Holmes: .164
    Fox: .056
    Hield: -.020
    Barnes: .088
    Bagley: .001

    OnCourt +/- per 100 possessions:

    Holmes: +0.3
    Fox: -7.1
    Hield: -9.0
    Barnes: -5.8
    Bagley: -10.4

    The fact that he's even able to have a positive On Floor +/- # at all is a small miracle, considering the numbers of the four other starters on the team. His # for On/Off court +/- per 100 poss is +21.5, which is insane. The Kings are 6-10, which is pretty impressive, considering Holmes is the only starter with an overall positive impact.

    https://www.basketball-reference.com.../SAC/2021.html

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