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  1. #51
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    I don’t remember the name. There is also plenty of examples in track of trans women beating the dog out of natural born women.

    I used to do amateur fights. And the Mma gym I trained at was a big jiujitsu gym. I was decent at JJ at best, I would roll with women that were my weight though and multiple belt levels above me and would beat them really easily. The strength, speed, explosiveness advantage is just too great.

    Be who you want to be, I’m all for trans women and being who you want. But, you shouldn’t be able to compete in sports against naturally born women. It just isn’t fair.
    im assuming its fallon fox because thats the story that grew a lot of traction that joe rogan famously commented on.

    and again, i'd need to see the data backing it up. keep in mind, its not like you have undergone surgeries and years worth of hormone therapy that would degrade your muscle mass and bone density, so no offense, but your anecdote isn't analogous.

    Male to female transsexuals have significantly less muscle strength and bone density, and higher fat mass, than males,” says Dr. Eric Vilain, director of the Ins ute For Society And Genetics at UCLA. Vilain examined Fox’s medical records and wrote a letter supporting her bid to fight as a woman. He also helped the Association of Boxing Commissions write its transgender policy. In order to fight against women, male-to-female athletes who had surgery after puberty must show that “surgical anatomical changes have been completed, including external genitalia and gonadectomy” and that “hormone therapy appropriate for the assigned sex (female) has been administered by a board certified endocrinologist or internist, pediatrician, or D.O. or any other specialist known to have significant knowledge with transsexuals and transgender individuals for a MINIMUM of TWO YEARS after gonadectroy. This is the current understanding of the minimum amount of time necessary to obviate male hormone gender related advantages in sports compe ion.”

    Still, could Fox be stronger than the other women because she used to be a man? “She could be,” says Vilain. “But sports is made up of compe ors who, by definition, have advantages for all kinds of genetics reasons. And no one complains about it.” A woman runner may be naturally faster, a woman basketball player taller, than her cohort. To exclude Fox because of her surgery, Vilain argues, would be discriminatory.

    Plus, Fox’s low testosterone could offset any advantage. Since Fox has neither testicles nor ovaries, which both produce testosterone, her levels are likely lower than those of her female compe ors. Fox says her training partner, who is a woman, is stronger than her, and has more endurance. “So I really have to work on my technique,” Fox says.
    https://keepingscore.blogs.time.com/...o-fight-women/
    Last edited by spurraider21; 01-23-2021 at 11:53 PM.

  2. #52
    VanillaPlayerFan BD24's Avatar
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    im assuming its fallon fox because thats the story that grew a lot of traction that joe rogan famously commented on.

    and again, i'd need to see the data backing it up. keep in mind, its not like you have undergone surgeries and years worth of hormone therapy that would degrade your muscle mass and bone density, so no offense, but your anecdote isn't analogous.


    https://keepingscore.blogs.time.com/...o-fight-women/
    I’m not saying it is rampant. But in this case, even just one or two people is to many. If it was indeed Fallan fox, she was someone who had never done mma before. At least actual bouts, then all of a sudden when she becomes a woman wants to do mma? That’s some nonsense dog.

    anyway. Your a good dude SR. So I’m not gonna go back and forth with you all night on this. It’s clear neither of us are going to change our minds. Have a good night my man

  3. #53
    Believe. MultiTroll's Avatar
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  4. #54
    Believe. MultiTroll's Avatar
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    I'm channel surfing and came across the Wake game.
    Seems kinda chickish.

  5. #55
    Believe. MultiTroll's Avatar
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    im assuming its fallon fox because thats the story that grew a lot of traction that joe rogan famously commented on.

    and again, i'd need to see the data backing it up. keep in mind, its not like you have undergone surgeries and years worth of hormone therapy that would degrade your muscle mass and bone density, so no offense, but your anecdote isn't analogous.


    https://keepingscore.blogs.time.com/...o-fight-women/
    Overeducated dumbass uber liveral Dr. Eric Vilain needs a reality check.

    That a dude. I don't need 40 years of school to know it.

  6. #56
    Believe. MultiTroll's Avatar
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    Dood.

  7. #57
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    I’m not saying it is rampant. But in this case, even just one or two people is to many. If it was indeed Fallan fox, she was someone who had never done mma before. At least actual bouts, then all of a sudden when she becomes a woman wants to do mma? That’s some nonsense dog.

    anyway. Your a good dude SR. So I’m not gonna go back and forth with you all night on this. It’s clear neither of us are going to change our minds. Have a good night my man
    thats not true. fallon fox was fighting well before she fought pro against women. fox had fought at least one amatuer bout against a dude years before she fought against women. i dont know how long fox had trained in mma before any of that.

    but the wins she racked up were against relative nobodies tbh... the notion that she came in and crushed compe ion all the way to the top like brock lesnar is re ed


  8. #58
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Mul roll you can do that with any number of female mma fighters though

    amanda nunes




    felicia spencer


  9. #59
    Believe. daboom1's Avatar
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  10. #60
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    everything i say in these threads

    https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=289074

    https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=286630


    tl;dr - manufactured paranoia/fear, just like the bathroom rape stuff. none of the fears are empirically born out, particularly less so when we talk about youth/school sports, which are what's primarily at issue
    Your take on this is inconsistent at best. It really boils down to legalese. If the individual meets the dynamic legal definitions to play then there's been no negative effects that reached you personally. Yes I can show you have this stance even if you deny it. No, I don't care who comes along and "likes" your retort.

  11. #61
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    thats not true. fallon fox was fighting well before she fought pro against women. fox had fought at least one amatuer bout against a dude years before she fought against women. i dont know how long fox had trained in mma before any of that.

    but the wins she racked up were against relative nobodies tbh... the notion that she came in and crushed compe ion all the way to the top like brock lesnar is re ed

    When a man beats the out of a woman, it's normally a relative nobody. Unless the man is Chris Brown or Ray Rice.

  12. #62
    Veteran N0 LyF3 ScRuB's Avatar
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    Yeah I have a big problem with this, especially in combat sports

  13. #63
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    SR21 sure is sensitive about tranny "rights".
    He's just arguing a point he thinks he can defend/win. Has nothing to do with sensitivity.

  14. #64
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    i dont need "most likely"

    show me how womens basketball is disproportionately dominated by trans athletes. fearmongering over brittney griner is as re ed as derp's "michael obama" or "serena/venus are actually boys pretending to be girls" conspiracy theories

    but on the subject, sports have always had some athletes that stand out above the rest, and have "biological advantages"... whether it be Bo Jackson, LeBron James, Mike Trout, etc., or Lisa Leslie, Brittney Griner in womens basketball, etc. but we dont discuss banning the uber athletes ... except when NCAA outlawed dunks because of lew alcindor

    unless you see trans athletes representing a disproportionate amount of the uber dominant athletes in a particular sport, there's nothing to discuss
    This is a poor argument. The dominance of a male in male sports has a long standing history and is part and parcel of the games themselves. Same is true for a female in female sports. You should address the spirit of gender separation in sports and then address crossing over.

    How can a female overcome the biological disadvantage of being pitted against a male in track and field? Should Bo Jackson be simply a recipe you can duplicate by crossing over?

  15. #65
    Believe. MultiTroll's Avatar
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    Meme worthy
    Doesn't even need to be captioned.

  16. #66
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    This is a poor argument. The dominance of a male in male sports has a long standing history and is part and parcel of the games themselves. Same is true for a female in female sports. You should address the spirit of gender separation in sports and then address crossing over.

    How can a female overcome the biological disadvantage of being pitted against a male in track and field? Should Bo Jackson be simply a recipe you can duplicate by crossing over?
    The point is in all sports we have seen some athletes rise above the rest of their peers to the point where it can be called an unfair biological advantage. If Lisa Leslie was trans people would have thrown a fit. But with the exact same level of physical dominance as a cis woman nobody bats an eye. I’m just pointing out that occasionally dominant athletes don’t break the sport. People argued blacks shouldn’t be allowed to play baseball because of genetic advantages too.

    No no that doesn’t mean i think Bo Jackson should simply cross over (the notion that people just wake up one day and “decide” to be trans is completely wrong). I’m ok with sports setting their own standard of how much hormone therapy or surgery should be required before allowing trans women to compete, as long as it’s scientifically/empirically set and not arbitrary.

    Seems to work just fine in collegiate and Olympic athletics. Should be even less a concern in youth sports

  17. #67
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Your take on this is inconsistent at best. It really boils down to legalese. If the individual meets the dynamic legal definitions to play then there's been no negative effects that reached you personally. Yes I can show you have this stance even if you deny it. No, I don't care who comes along and "likes" your retort.
    If those legal definitions are rooted in science and empiricism and not arbitrary, then particularly. Why are you butthurt about supposed “likes?” From what i can tell I’m the only person affirmatively arguing this position. Even other posters who would be considered left have straight up said they’re not for it

  18. #68
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    The point is in all sports we have seen some athletes rise above the rest of their peers to the point where it can be called an unfair biological advantage. If Lisa Leslie was trans people would have thrown a fit. But with the exact same level of physical dominance as a cis woman nobody bats an eye. I’m just pointing out that occasionally dominant athletes don’t break the sport. People argued blacks shouldn’t be allowed to play baseball because of genetic advantages too.

    No no that doesn’t mean i think Bo Jackson should simply cross over (the notion that people just wake up one day and “decide” to be trans is completely wrong). I’m ok with sports setting their own standard of how much hormone therapy or surgery should be required before allowing trans women to compete, as long as it’s scientifically/empirically set and not arbitrary.

    Seems to work just fine in collegiate and Olympic athletics. Should be even less a concern in youth sports
    When you enter a contest you expect someone might be an outlier, there could be a real bad ass, genetically gifted person in the mix. These people are rare and we celebrate them for that reason. You said "Bo Jackson" for a reason, they are extremely rare. But, Bo Jackson wasn't overwhelming to the NFL. He didn't break all the NFL records. He didn't break the MLB records. He was a gifted athlete. If you played HS sports and ran into Bo Jackson, you brag about it today. You don't feel cheated. If you raced in the TDF and ran up against Lance Armstrong, you because you were cheated by a chemically induced advantage that you could not overcome no matter the work you put into it. Male athletes have a massive advantage over female athletes. A low level male athlete, the most under card of the under cards, would beat Holly Holmes to death in the 1st round.

    You cannot choose to be Bo Jackson (we'd all be Bo Jackson if we could). You can choose to transition and then compete against far inferior physical abilities (not gifts). It's pretty simple math actually. The average in one group far exceeds the average in the other, so cross contamination yields disruptive consequences. Consider women's sports like the Special Olympics.

    But you had no issue saying Lebron James should not be allowed to play in the WNBA because Lebron is a male who identifies as a man. If Lebron identified as a woman, then you'd be OK with it because it meets the legal terms specified in the stipulations. From a compe ion standpoint, it's the exact same scenario.

    The "blacks in sports" comment was a poor analogy. There is no inherent advantage based on race and you said a male should not be able to play on a woman's team (WNBA). Your argument is akin to saying "well they said the sound barrier couldn't be broken but it was" when someone points out the paradoxical effects of FTL travel and how it will never be done. Poor reasoning for one doesn't equate to poor reasoning for all.

  19. #69
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    If those legal definitions are rooted in science and empiricism and not arbitrary, then particularly. Why are you butthurt about supposed “likes?” From what i can tell I’m the only person affirmatively arguing this position. Even other posters who would be considered left have straight up said they’re not for it
    That's a big "if".

    Why can Lebron play in the WNBA if he identifies as a woman but not if he identifies as a man? What science and empiricism enables that? The cute "Women's NBA" retort is a cheap escape hatch btw.

    You still haven't addressed the spirit of sports being gender separated. Once you do that your arguments should follow that line of reasoning, otherwise it's just random comments.


    The ramifications of guys in women's sports is that it's an even bigger disadvantage to be born female.

  20. #70
    Derrick White fanboy FkLA's Avatar
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    This is the stupid thing about being left/right. Some is just common sense but because of political affiliation both sides will argue against that common sense. The right does it with science based issues (rona, global warming). The left does it with re ed, SJW issues like this.

    Get those dudes their own category. Not sure how they can get satisfaction out of beating girls that are at a biological disadvantage against them anyways.

  21. #71
    Derrick White fanboy FkLA's Avatar
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    If you can look at that and be like "yeah that looks like the right thing to do" theres something wrong with you.

  22. #72
    4-25-20 Will Hunting's Avatar
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    This is the stupid thing about being left/right. Some is just common sense but because of political affiliation both sides will argue against that common sense. The right does it with science based issues. The left does it with re ed, SJW issues like this.

    Get those dudes their own category. Not sure how they can get satisfaction out of beating girls that are at a genetic disadvantage against them anyways.
    And this^ is the stupid thing about both sidesism.

    One side has gotten too woke and issued an executive order that ignores physical differences between men and women but is largely benign and relates to college sports. No one will ever die from this.

    The other side wants to ignore global warming and subsidize the most dirty, inefficient energy sources purely due to corruption and being beholden to oil barons knowing it’s horrible for the planet. Potentially millions die from this.

    right and left are both bad

  23. #73
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    That's a big "if".

    Why can Lebron play in the WNBA if he identifies as a woman but not if he identifies as a man? What science and empiricism enables that? The cute "Women's NBA" retort is a cheap escape hatch btw.

    You still haven't addressed the spirit of sports being gender separated. Once you do that your arguments should follow that line of reasoning, otherwise it's just random comments.


    The ramifications of guys in women's sports is that it's an even bigger disadvantage to be born female.
    I don’t think the WNBA would or should allow Lebron to join tomorrow if he “chose” to identify as a woman tomorrow. Nobody has ever advocated for that

  24. #74
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    When you enter a contest you expect someone might be an outlier, there could be a real bad ass, genetically gifted person in the mix. These people are rare and we celebrate them for that reason. You said "Bo Jackson" for a reason, they are extremely rare. But, Bo Jackson wasn't overwhelming to the NFL. He didn't break all the NFL records. He didn't break the MLB records. He was a gifted athlete. If you played HS sports and ran into Bo Jackson, you brag about it today. You don't feel cheated. If you raced in the TDF and ran up against Lance Armstrong, you because you were cheated by a chemically induced advantage that you could not overcome no matter the work you put into it. Male athletes have a massive advantage over female athletes. A low level male athlete, the most under card of the under cards, would beat Holly Holmes to death in the 1st round.

    You cannot choose to be Bo Jackson (we'd all be Bo Jackson if we could). You can choose to transition and then compete against far inferior physical abilities (not gifts). It's pretty simple math actually. The average in one group far exceeds the average in the other, so cross contamination yields disruptive consequences. Consider women's sports like the Special Olympics.

    But you had no issue saying Lebron James should not be allowed to play in the WNBA because Lebron is a male who identifies as a man. If Lebron identified as a woman, then you'd be OK with it because it meets the legal terms specified in the stipulations. From a compe ion standpoint, it's the exact same scenario.

    The "blacks in sports" comment was a poor analogy. There is no inherent advantage based on race and you said a male should not be able to play on a woman's team (WNBA). Your argument is akin to saying "well they said the sound barrier couldn't be broken but it was" when someone points out the paradoxical effects of FTL travel and how it will never be done. Poor reasoning for one doesn't equate to poor reasoning for all.
    bo jackson was a dual sport all star who was the best RB in the league but only played part time and had his career cut off early due to injury.

    the mere act of identifying as the particular gender does not and should allow allow acces into those leagues, and i have never suggested that. this is a strawman you've gone to a couple of times now.

    the blacks in sports analogy is fairly close. people said they shouldnt be allowed to play pro baseball with white people because of perceived genetic advantages that could not be overcome.

    ive also acknowledged that the issues being discussed primarily manifest at the extremes (ie highest levels of professional play and olympic level events), whereas the actual topic of the thread and the govt action relates to school sports. so the talk of "lebron joining the wnba" is the bad analogy

  25. #75
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    This is the stupid thing about being left/right. Some is just common sense but because of political affiliation both sides will argue against that common sense. The right does it with science based issues (rona, global warming). The left does it with re ed, SJW issues like this.

    Get those dudes their own category. Not sure how they can get satisfaction out of beating girls that are at a biological disadvantage against them anyways.
    "common sense" is the primary retort of climate change deniers too

    hur dur the climate always changes its common sense. we've had warmer periods in the earths history and there were no SUVs back then either! its common sense!

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