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  1. #101
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    bo jackson was a dual sport all star who was the best RB in the league but only played part time and had his career cut off early due to injury.
    I know who Bo Jackson was, I didn't need to Google it. He was during my time. This tidbit doesn't get any closer to addressing the issue.

    The object of compe ion isn't to make everyone completely equal. It's to give everyone the same starting point. Even though plenty athletes have genetic advantages, you cannot simply mitigate those by fiat, however by allowing males to compete against females, you've created an entire category of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There's simply no way the female can be on the same level, which is why the two are segregated in almost all sports now (even billiards). Despite what you said before about comradery, it's not about that. It's about the spirit of compe ion. As unfair as you think it would be to deny a transgender person access to compe ion from the gender of their choice, it's even more unfair to the girls who don't have a choice.
    the mere act of identifying as the particular gender does not and should allow allow acces into those leagues, and i have never suggested that. this is a strawman you've gone to a couple of times now.
    This cannot stand on its own. You need to explain the difference between identifying as a girl and being a girl. Then you need to explain why it matters that a girl competes against a girl. You've avoided this.

    the blacks in sports analogy is fairly close. people said they shouldnt be allowed to play pro baseball with white people because of perceived genetic advantages that could not be overcome.
    No, like Will Hunting said, it's a slippery slope. It's desperate and indicates you're either trolling or out of material.

    You said yourself in this very response that Lebron should not be allowed to play in the WNBA. Does he have "perceived genetic advantages"? You seem to be for and against this at the same time.
    ive also acknowledged that the issues being discussed primarily manifest at the extremes (ie highest levels of professional play and olympic level events), whereas the actual topic of the thread and the govt action relates to school sports. so the talk of "lebron joining the wnba" is the bad analogy
    Why is that an extreme example? You keep inferring premises without establishing any.

    The WNBA is the female version of the NBA, so the best in the NBA moving to the WNBA would be akin to the best in HS sports moving to female HS sports. If the worst can, why can't the best?

  2. #102
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    This cannot stand on its own. You need to explain the difference between identifying as a girl and being a girl. Then you need to explain why it matters that a girl competes against a girl. You've avoided this.
    you want me to explain the difference between gender and sex?

    No, like Will Hunting said, it's a slippery slope. It's desperate and indicates you're either trolling or out of material.

    You said yourself in this very response that Lebron should not be allowed to play in the WNBA. Does he have "perceived genetic advantages"? You seem to be for and against this at the same time.
    how is this a slippery slope? im saying theres a difference between lebron today and lebron who has undergone years of HRT and potentially surgeries which would deplete testosterone levels

    Why is that an extreme example? You keep inferring premises without establishing any.
    why is "lebron joins the WNBA tomorrow" an extreme example?

  3. #103
    LMAO koriwhat's Avatar
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    SR21 just hates women/girls and want them more oppressed or he's just a big SJW virtue signaling... Actually he's both.

  4. #104
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    you want me to explain the difference between gender and sex?
    So you're saying as long as Lebron identifies as a girl, he meets the gender requirement to compete in the WNBA.

    Why can't you answer simple questions without using misleading comments?
    how is this a slippery slope? im saying theres a difference between lebron today and lebron who has undergone years of HRT and potentially surgeries which would deplete testosterone levels
    You haven't explained why the HRT matters if it's a gender iden y issue only.

    Can you give an example of a female who underwent HRT and dominated male compe ions afterward? If not, why do you think that is?

    why is "lebron joins the WNBA tomorrow" an extreme example?
    Yes. Please explain.

  5. #105
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    so much straw.

  6. #106
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    SR21 just hates women/girls and want them more oppressed or he's just a big SJW virtue signaling... Actually he's both.
    Not every position argued here reflects personal belief.

  7. #107
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    So you're saying as long as Lebron identifies as a girl, he meets the gender requirement to compete in the WNBA.

    Why can't you answer simple questions without using misleading comments?

    You haven't explained why the HRT matters if it's a gender iden y issue only.

    Can you give an example of a female who underwent HRT and dominated male compe ions afterward? If not, why do you think that is?


    Yes. Please explain.
    im bored. these are all strawman arguments that i've explained multiple times. in 3 threads now.

  8. #108
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Not every position argued here reflects personal belief.
    no, this is my personal belief particularly as it relates to student athletes.

    wasnt before, mostly because of the same questions that others have raised here. read up a lot more on the issue. became better informed. opinion changed.

  9. #109
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    im bored. these are all strawman arguments that i've explained multiple times. in 3 threads now.
    no, this is my personal belief particularly as it relates to student athletes.

    wasnt before, mostly because of the same questions that others have raised here. read up a lot more on the issue. became better informed. opinion changed.
    The answer is “Transgender MTF athletes LIKELY retain some degree of biological advantage even after lowering testosterone levels”. Studies in transwomen pretty universally show that lean mass and strength decline by about 5% after 12 months of lowering testosterone. The initial typical advantage in mass and strength that biological males enjoy over females is between 20% and 100% (depending on task), and the composite outcome of mass and strength may be even greater (think kinetic energy = mass x velocity squared).

    Why? Because in running events, if the normal male-vs-female performance difference is 10%, then a male who is say, 7% slower than the very best males (sub-elite in other words), but who loses only 3 to 4% after reassignment to the female category, would now be at the level of elite females. In strength based events, particularly involving the upper body, this starting difference is even larger – weight lifting world records are 25% to 35% better in men than women even when you correct for mass, which means that even 20% reductions in strength with T reduction would not remove the male advantage.

    In effect, if the policy doesn’t remove the advantage, it could ‘flood’ the female sports division with new arrivals, who enter the group by virtue of a physiological advantage that is unavailable to those already in the group.

    On other hand, proponents of allowing transgender MTF athletes to participate under the testosterone-lowering guidelines are saying that the performance ‘adjustment’ or impairment after reducing testosterone is large enough that this never happens. Their position is that a biological male will lose enough of their “androgen-derived advantages” and enter women’s sport at the same place they left men’s sport.

    If this were true, then there’d be little to fret about, at least for performance, fairness and safety. It would mean that a 12 month period of compliance would be enough to ensure fairness, and that no biological male ever enters women’s sport with a theoretically insurmountable advantage. It is, according to its proponents, the current situation, as evidenced by the lack of dominant MTF elite athletes.

    And so in summary (and simplification), these are the two models:

    Lowering T, as current policy requires, completely removes the male performance advantage, and so should allow participation of transgender MTF athletes without any opposition (blue corner). Many in this group have also argued that being compelled to lower testosterone creates a health problem for them, and should not be required (in varying degrees and with varying ‘fervour’, as we shall see)
    Lowering T, as current policy requires, only partly removes the male performance advantage, and therefore MTF athletes should not be allowed to compete because they will still have insurmountable advantages and the integrity of women’s sport may be destroyed (red corner). This would be particularly the case in sports where stature and size matter, but is also because once you’ve had the benefit of testosterone during development, it can never be fully taken away.


    https://sportsscientists.com/2019/03...ce-advantages/

  10. #110
    LMAO koriwhat's Avatar
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    Not every position argued here reflects personal belief.
    I agree... I believe SR21 panders to the rest of ST who he thinks is comprised of the same SJW weirdos on Twitter.

  11. #111
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    Or as I said, do away with categories and let everyone compete. See who wins, and don't categorize afterward.

  12. #112
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    Tennis HAS been through this with Renee Richards in the 70s when she was ranked as high as #20 (Feb '79 at age 45) after transitioning at age 41. Richards has since expressed ambivalence about her legacy, and came to believe her past as a man provided her with advantages over her compe ors, saying "Having lived for the past 30 years, I know if I'd had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I've reconsidered my opinion."[21][22]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Richards

  13. #113
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    And this is someone who coached Martina Navratilova (at that time considered the ultimate in fitness) to 2 Wimbledon championships.

    Navratilova (LGBTQ herself) has come out against transgenders in women's tennis and gotten BLASTED for it.

  14. #114
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    damn so tennis has been allowing this for decades and one person at one point ranked top 25 or whatever and that is destroying women's sports?

  15. #115
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    damn so tennis has been allowing this for decades and one person at one point ranked top 25 or whatever and that is destroying women's sports?
    She was an ophthalmologist (by career) and 41 years old when she did the surgery - meaning not a career tennis player or young when she did it. She was no threat to the top of the women's game (women's tennis wasn't very deep then) at that age. Did you totally disregard her quote? The threat is not when old, slow mid lifers are transitioning - the threat is when same/similar aged persons with male bodies/physical advantages do it.

  16. #116
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    55 year old Bobby Riggs defeated Margaret Court (#1 in the world at the time - current (not Serena) holder of the most singles and overall Grand Slam les) 6-2, 6-1 in the 1st Battle of the Sexes. In the VERY highly publicized 2nd Battle of the Sexes, Billie Jean King (age 29) beat Riggs in 3 sets.

    Nineteen years later, a third "Battle of the Sexes" match, en led Battle of Champions, was played in 1992.[37] Outdoors at Caesars Palace in Paradise, Nevada, it matched 40 year-old Jimmy Connors and Martina Navratilova, age 35. A pay-per-view telecast,[37][40] the match was played on Friday night, September 25, under hybrid rules to make it more compe ive; Connors was allowed only one serve per point, and Navratilova was allowed to hit into half of the doubles alleys.[37][40] Score was still 7-5, 6-2 Connors.

    Women cannot compete on an even field with men in tennis - the physical advantage is too great.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle...Sexes_(tennis)
    Last edited by rmt; 01-24-2021 at 04:55 PM.

  17. #117
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    55 year old Bobby Riggs defeated Margaret Court (#1 in the world at the time - current (not Serena) holder of the most singles and overall Grand Slam les) 6-2, 6-1 in the 1st Battle of the Sexes. In the VERY highly publicized 2nd Battle of the Sexes, Billie Jean King (age 29) beat Riggs in 3 sets.

    Nineteen years later, a third "Battle of the Sexes" match, en led Battle of Champions, was played in 1992.[37] Outdoors at Caesars Palace in Paradise, Nevada, it matched 40 year-old Jimmy Connors and Martina Navratilova, age 35. A pay-per-view telecast,[37][40] the match was played on Friday night, September 25, under hybrid rules to make it more compe ive; Connors was allowed only one serve per point, and Navratilova was allowed to hit into half of the doubles alleys.[37][40] Score was still 7-5, 6-2 Connors.

    Women cannot compete on an even field with men in tennis - the physical advantage is too great.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle...Sexes_(tennis)
    wow. people who were not on HRT or ever got surgeries.

  18. #118
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    wow. people who were not on HRT or ever got surgeries.
    Weak sauce - like talk of Pollo Tropical.

  19. #119
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    She was an ophthalmologist (by career) and 41 years old when she did the surgery - meaning not a career tennis player or young when she did it. She was no threat to the top of the women's game (women's tennis wasn't very deep then) at that age. Did you totally disregard her quote? The threat is not when old, slow mid lifers are transitioning - the threat is when same/similar aged persons with male bodies/physical advantages do it.
    facts dont care about her feelings

  20. #120
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Weak sauce - like talk of Pollo Tropical.
    tennis has been allowing trans athletes for decades and it hasn't led to the eradication of women's tennis. seems to prove my point

    the olympics allow trans athletes to participate. we arent seeing hordes of trans women dominating the olympics either. its going to be ok. especially at the youth levels

  21. #121
    Veteran Th'Pusher's Avatar
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    tennis has been allowing trans athletes for decades and it hasn't led to the eradication of women's tennis. seems to prove my point

    the olympics allow trans athletes to participate. we arent seeing hordes of trans women dominating the olympics either. its going to be ok. especially at the youth levels
    Glad Biden did this early in his presidency. Gives a good three years for the emotion and hysteria to wear off.

  22. #122
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    tennis has been allowing trans athletes for decades and it hasn't led to the eradication of women's tennis. seems to prove my point

    the olympics allow trans athletes to participate. we arent seeing hordes of trans women dominating the olympics either. its going to be ok. especially at the youth levels
    You are ignoring not only the widespread acceptance of LGBQT (not so back in the 70s) but the AMOUNT of money in sports TODAY. It wasn't until 1981 that Navratilova came out as bisexual or Billie Jean King:

    In 1971, she began an intimate relationship with her secretary, Marilyn Barnett (born Marilyn Kathryn McRae on January 28, 1948). Marilyn Barnett had been living rent-free in Billie Jean and Larry King's Malibu house. In 1979, the Kings asked Barnett to leave their house, but Barnett did not want to. Refusing to leave the house, Barnett threatened to leak records and receipts between the two that she had kept over the years. These receipts included letters from Billie Jean to Marilyn Barnett, credit card receipts, and paid bills. [178] It was not until, when the attempts to leak these records failed, that Marilyn Barnett sued the Kings in 1981 for half their income and the Malibu house where she had been staying. [179] Billie Jean King did not know of the lawsuit until a reporter from the Los Angeles Times asked her about it. Billie Jean King did not want to confirm this, so she continued to deny the relationship. [180] Billie Jean acknowledged the relationship when it became public in a May 1981 palimony lawsuit filed by Barnett, making Billie Jean the first prominent professional female to come out. Feeling she could not admit to the extent of the relationship, Billie Jean publicly called it a fling and a mistake.[20] She remained married to Larry.[20] The lawsuit caused Billie Jean to lose an estimated $2 million in endorsements and forced her to prolong her tennis career to pay attorneys.

    As I mentioned earlier, it'll take time to affect skill sports - not so in strength and speed sports like track. Just like it'll take time to reach Olympic level - not so at high school level.

  23. #123
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    damn so tennis has been allowing this for decades and one person at one point ranked top 25 or whatever and that is destroying women's sports?
    Speaking of strawman. You're some hard headed mother ers here.

  24. #124
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    You are ignoring not only the widespread acceptance of LGBQT (not so back in the 70s) but the AMOUNT of money in sports TODAY. It wasn't until 1981 that Navratilova came out as bisexual or Billie Jean King:

    In 1971, she began an intimate relationship with her secretary, Marilyn Barnett (born Marilyn Kathryn McRae on January 28, 1948). Marilyn Barnett had been living rent-free in Billie Jean and Larry King's Malibu house. In 1979, the Kings asked Barnett to leave their house, but Barnett did not want to. Refusing to leave the house, Barnett threatened to leak records and receipts between the two that she had kept over the years. These receipts included letters from Billie Jean to Marilyn Barnett, credit card receipts, and paid bills. [178] It was not until, when the attempts to leak these records failed, that Marilyn Barnett sued the Kings in 1981 for half their income and the Malibu house where she had been staying. [179] Billie Jean King did not know of the lawsuit until a reporter from the Los Angeles Times asked her about it. Billie Jean King did not want to confirm this, so she continued to deny the relationship. [180] Billie Jean acknowledged the relationship when it became public in a May 1981 palimony lawsuit filed by Barnett, making Billie Jean the first prominent professional female to come out. Feeling she could not admit to the extent of the relationship, Billie Jean publicly called it a fling and a mistake.[20] She remained married to Larry.[20] The lawsuit caused Billie Jean to lose an estimated $2 million in endorsements and forced her to prolong her tennis career to pay attorneys.

    As I mentioned earlier, it'll take time to affect skill sports - not so in strength and speed sports like track. Just like it'll take time to reach Olympic level - not so at high school level.
    None of this helps your emotional uninformed argument.

  25. #125
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Speaking of strawman. You're some hard headed mother ers here.
    its not a strawman at all. people have been calling this move the end of women's sports

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