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  1. #726
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    If the Spurs were trying to play an LMA-centric offense but couldn't because LMA is too old, then getting a younger version of him would make sense. But the style of play they employ now doesn't fit him or Vuc in basically the same way. I literally can't imagine this being a good trade unless the Spurs believe Vuc would explode in their system. Right now for no extra spending, they have a very good center rotation. Jakob is playing like one of the best defenders in the whole league (leads it in defensive RAPTOR, for example). This trade could easily make them worst, not even considering it just not improving them as much.

    Gordon makes a good bit of sense, since he's a good fit this year and in a potential post-DeRozan era. I don't think Vuc makes sense unless the Spurs are also moving Jakob in another deal where he's bringing back more than they're spending on Vucevic.

  2. #727
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    If the Spurs were trying to play an LMA-centric offense but couldn't because LMA is too old, then getting a younger version of him would make sense. But the style of play they employ now doesn't fit him or Vuc in basically the same way. I literally can't imagine this being a good trade unless the Spurs believe Vuc would explode in their system. Right now for no extra spending, they have a very good center rotation. Jakob is playing like one of the best defenders in the whole league (leads it in defensive RAPTOR, for example). This trade could easily make them worst, not even considering it just not improving them as much.

    Gordon makes a good bit of sense, since he's a good fit this year and in a potential post-DeRozan era. I don't think Vuc makes sense unless the Spurs are also moving Jakob in another deal where he's bringing back more than they're spending on Vucevic.
    What's this "very good center rotation"?

    Poeltl with Aldridge backing him up? The same Aldridge that can't be relied on to play five games in a row? The same Aldridge where if he's not scoring, he's providing absolutely nothing?

    Poeltl by himself?

    Poeltl with Eubanks backing up? Because lol?

  3. #728
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    If the Spurs were trying to play an LMA-centric offense but couldn't because LMA is too old, then getting a younger version of him would make sense.
    He's a younger version if we talk spacing (even better spacer on 3pt line), but he's actually a really good passer. As we all know, LMA is one of the worst passers in the league. Full panic mode as soon as he sees the double team coming.
    Vucevic has averaged 3.7 assists over the last 3 seasons. He could easily get 5 in our system.

    To me, Gordon+Vucevic for Demar+assets would be a perfect trade for us. Gordon and Vucevic compliment eachother really well and would be a seamless fit with our young guards.

    Again, I don't see Demar staying if Vucevic signs here. As good as he's been, defense and 3pt shooting are two key things in today's league. And he's awful at both. We either get someone like Turner or we get Vucevic and a legit PF like Gordon.

  4. #729
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    Even though the Magic should trade Vucevic (and Gordon, Fournier, Ross), they'd probably have to be bowled over to actually do so and are unlikely to even contemplate it until the off season.

    The Spurs are in position to make a consolidation type trade and he'd be a good fit all the way around; easily better than any other player they could feasibly attain.

    But despite being a durable, skilled, below the rim big, who could conceivably have up to another near half decade of star caliber player left in him, he'd really only make sense if DeRozan is being retained.

    If that is in the works (hopefully not at any rate, but 3/$90M?) and after seeing where the draft pick lands, they could offer Poeltl, Walker IV and something like a top 3-5 protected 1st. The Magic would more than likely counter with Vassell or another 1st. The Spurs could also offer to take Aminu's contract as a way of lessening the value of the final asset.

  5. #730
    Every game is game 1 Seventyniner's Avatar
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    I do think that the Magic will demand far more than the Spurs are willing to give for Vucevic. Even if Vucevic is an upgrade over Poeltl, I don't think it will be enough of one to justify sending out a bunch of assets.

    Edit: also, Vucevic's 29.4 USG% would lead the Spurs by a mile (DeRozan: 23.6%), and is diametrically opposite that of the team-low Poeltl (12.5%). There is no way he would come off the bench, and would probably take touches away from everyone else. That would upend the entire Spurs' offensive system. That might not be terrible since the Spurs are 20th in ORtg, but losing DDR in the trade would offset much of the gain of getting Vucevic imo.
    Last edited by Seventyniner; 03-08-2021 at 05:57 PM.

  6. #731
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    orl would probably want a top pick or a young star + filler. trading for ddr or lma with lonnie doesnt make them better now or later. they can get much better return from other teams.

  7. #732
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    I'm not necessarily advocating it, but the argument would be: Retaining up to 4 of the 5 core youth (with the one definite being upgraded), to play alongside 2 All-Star caliber players (I wouldn't classify DeRozan as such, but whatever), creating the makings of potentially a solid playoff team (5-6 type seed), which would make the picks not overly valuable odds wise.

    The youth would be well positioned to play a significant role and in meaningful games, without having the burden of having to carry the team. Should one emerge as a star while the 2 All-Star caliber players remain in their prime, the team might graduate to pseudo contender status.

    Outside of a glamour market, that's about the best you can do in this league short of extreme luck, which franchises like this are unwilling to operate based off of.


    I do think that the Magic will demand far more than the Spurs are willing to give for Vucevic. Even if Vucevic is an upgrade over Poeltl, I don't think it will be enough of one to justify sending out a bunch of assets.

    Edit: also, Vucevic's 29.4 USG% would lead the Spurs by a mile (DeRozan: 23.6%), and is diametrically opposite that of the team-low Poeltl (12.5%). There is no way he would come off the bench, and would probably take touches away from everyone else. That would upend the entire Spurs' offensive system. That might not be terrible since the Spurs are 20th in ORtg, but losing DDR in the trade would offset much of the gain of getting Vucevic imo.
    Context. No Isaac or Fultz, not much Fournier, gimpy Gordon and stretches without a legit PG/lead ball handler forced him into this role (and they're a severely limited offensive team when healthy).

    We've seen DeRozan slash his usage for the greater good and there's no reason to think Vucevic wouldn't either.

  8. #733
    Veteran NASpurs's Avatar
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    I saw something from Kevin O Connor that the spurs might be interested in a guy named Alize Johnson, think he plays in the G league. Anyone know anything on him?

  9. #734
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    I don't think folks realize how completely DeRozan is outplaying Vuc. I don't consider trading DeMar for Nik a win at all. And adding in like Poeltl and two firsts is ridiculous. I'm not saying Orlando wouldn't demand it, but they can take those demands somewhere else. Vuc is a solidly good player who gets the touches to look like a great player.

    This sort of reminds me of people who wanted to trade LDN-Green for volume-scoring guards back in the day. I don't find spending a bunch more money, touches and assets to "upgrade" from Poeltl remotely interesting. The Spurs should use their assets elsewhere.

  10. #735
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    DeRozan on a Vucevic less Magic makes even less sense than Vucevic on a DeRozan less Spurs. A Magic core of DeRozan, Isaac, Fultz desperately needs plus shooting at the other two starting spots to even have a chance to function offensively.

    I more than likely wouldn't trade for Vucevic either, but those opposed to it are seemingly opposed to every realistic significant acquisition, as if they think this team will continue to stockpile and retain every draft pick, luck into a superstar in short order and be back in business as far as championship contention.

  11. #736
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    Not that it means anything, but the other teams wanting Nikola don’t have much to offer the magic either that’s why I could see the spurs having a chance if they include Lonnie or a 1st

  12. #737
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    If the plan is to use Vucevic like a super sub/situational big like our boy Dejounte is proposing - the outgoing package needs to be proportional to how he will be used.

    Agree that we are well suited to make an offer, so wait for the deadline to dangle LA’s expiring and a second or way future protected first/swap. Giving up a 23 first doesn’t sting like a 21, and at this time with the depth of the draft I wouldn’t be chomping at the bit to sell our spot.

    I think there’s just some who get the taste of something new and want it so badly, not realizing that the dream scenario of creating a “5-6 seed pseudocontender” that is “about as good as a small market team can hope to do” is kinda where we already are right now, just minus our pick this summer and a rotation player with another year left before RFA. I will also absolutely continue to make the point that Jakob is a better fit for the surrounding roster and in any potential playoff scenario Vucevic will look borderline unplayable against capable offenses.

  13. #738
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    Does it, though?

    The Spurs unequivocally need more 3pt shooting - but not necessarily coming from the C position, and especially not if it comes at the cost of losing out on Jakob's elite defensive presence, which elevates the entire team around him. For one, unless he really, really can't get his foul troubles in check (which he's managed to do for the most part this season, at least compared to last one/the bubble), Poeltl is a starting-caliber player for sure, and benching him will greatly reduce his impact - and also weaken the main unit's defense, by a big margin. People sleep on it, but we don't really have all that good of a defensive SL: Dejounte is obviously the best of the bunch, and even he is prone to lapses and off-nights getting cooked by opposing guards; Lonnie needs no explanation; DeMar doesn't either; Keldon, while really strong against bigs and in general man-to-man, is a lousy team defender right now, and probably will take a few years to get better, if ever. Poeltl being there helps hide the entire SL's defensive woes, in the same way that having Bryn Forbes in the SL exacerbates the problem not only for him, but for the entire lineup.

    you just missed the point and wrote an essay about it. Im not saying I want Vuc. I actually want Myles Turner, who’s at least as good if not better than Poeltl defensively while also being a 3-point shooter. You’re saying we don’t have enough good defenders out there, but neglecting the fact that we don’t have many consistent 3-point shooters out there either. DeRozan doesn’t really shoot 3s. Keldon % is bad and DJ shoots about 33%.

    That’s why you need a stretch big, other wise teams will play you like OKC did and just pack the paint to force you into shooting jumpers. It’s not a coincidence that when Aldridge started shooting 3s last season, DeRozan had MJ like efficiency numbers cause he all of a sudden had way more room to operate. This team has plenty of players who thrive at driving to the rim, therefore you need a big who can stretch the floor. In an ideal scenario that big should of course also be mobile and a rim protector. It’s just that they are rare.

  14. #739
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    Turner isn't actually better than Poeltl defensively. Never has been.

  15. #740
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    I don't think folks realize how completely DeRozan is outplaying Vuc. I don't consider trading DeMar for Nik a win at all. And adding in like Poeltl and two firsts is ridiculous. I'm not saying Orlando wouldn't demand it, but they can take those demands somewhere else. Vuc is a solidly good player who gets the touches to look like a great player.

    This sort of reminds me of people who wanted to trade LDN-Green for volume-scoring guards back in the day. I don't find spending a bunch more money, touches and assets to "upgrade" from Poeltl remotely interesting. The Spurs should use their assets elsewhere.
    I agree. I wouldn’t even want to give up Walker or the 2021 pick. If he can be had for a 1st rounder and any package of Gay, Mills, Aldridge pull the trigger, but I wouldn’t overpay
    Last edited by RC_Drunkford; 03-08-2021 at 07:07 PM.

  16. #741
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    Turner isn't actually better than Poeltl defensively. Never has been.
    well Poeltl has better advanced and rim protection stats while Turner averages more blocks and is runner up for DPOY. They both elite defenders, that’s all I‘m saying

  17. #742
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    I agree. I wouldn’t even want to give up Walker or the 2022 pick. If he can be had for a 1st rounder and any package of Gay, Mills, Aldridge pull the trigger, but I wouldn’t overpay
    I almost want to say I value the 21 first more than Lonnie at this point, but with the nature of the draft you can’t say that with any level of certainty.

    put it this way- with the spurs track record, and the depth of this draft, especially in the areas of our teams need, I’m not giving up the first. I don’t see any player becoming available that will warrant changing that opinion either.

    magic are in a bit of a bind with the cap. If they want relief and a second rounder to swing at an international prospect or something, bring on Vucevic. But there’s no real serious conversation being had about firsts or rotation players IMHO.

  18. #743
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    If the plan is to use Vucevic like a super sub/situational big like our boy Dejounte is proposing - the outgoing package needs to be proportional to how he will be used.

    Agree that we are well suited to make an offer, so wait for the deadline to dangle LA’s expiring and a second or way future protected first/swap. Giving up a 23 first doesn’t sting like a 21, and at this time with the depth of the draft I wouldn’t be chomping at the bit to sell our spot.

    I think there’s just some who get the taste of something new and want it so badly, not realizing that the dream scenario of creating a “5-6 seed pseudocontender” that is “about as good as a small market team can hope to do” is kinda where we already are right now, just minus our pick this summer and a rotation player with another year left before RFA. I will also absolutely continue to make the point that Jakob is a better fit for the surrounding roster and in any potential playoff scenario Vucevic will look borderline unplayable against capable offenses.
    I repeatedly intimated I wasn't in favor and no, "we" are not already a solid playoff team or pseudo contender. "We" are a fringe playoff team that'll probably end up a lower seeded team in the play in and fail to qualify for the playoffs. That's where ever indicator (health, schedule, team metrics) is pointing.

    I'll believe they're just going to turn the offense over to a group of youth who haven't shown themselves to be surefire featured types, when I see it.

  19. #744
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    I repeatedly intimated I wasn't in favor and no, "we" are not already a solid playoff team or pseudo contender. "We" are a fringe playoff team that'll probably end up a lower seeded team in the play in and fail to qualify for the playoffs. That's where ever indicator (health, schedule, team metrics) is pointing.

    I'll believe they're just going to turn the offense over to a group of youth who haven't shown themselves to be surefire featured types, when I see it.
    even if I agreed with your evaluation of our current team- I don’t think you can make the argument Vucevic and the package necessary to get him materially changes the reality of our team long term.

    spurs are far more likely to offer a 1+1 or a 2 year deal to Demar than they are to start piecing out assets for a player like Vucevic.

  20. #745
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    well Poeltl has better advanced and rim protection stats while Turner averages more blocks and is runner up for DPOY. They both elite defenders, that’s all I‘m saying
    I agree that it's not worth it to split hairs. But I'd much rather pay to upgrade a different position, especially if it's cheaper than a Turner trade. DeRozan (as he's playing this season) is the only clear top-flight player on the team. Poeltl and Murray are fighting for second place. White is solidly there, but with his injuries and such, he's not a bona fide starter. Johnson is even more so. My priorities would be PF, SG, SF (because DeRozan can slide over one way or the other), C then PG (since White and Murray are a crazy-strong rotation).

  21. #746
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    I almost want to say I value the 21 first more than Lonnie at this point, but with the nature of the draft you can’t say that with any level of certainty.

    put it this way- with the spurs track record, and the depth of this draft, especially in the areas of our teams need, I’m not giving up the first. I don’t see any player becoming available that will warrant changing that opinion either.

    magic are in a bit of a bind with the cap. If they want relief and a second rounder to swing at an international prospect or something, bring on Vucevic. But there’s no real serious conversation being had about firsts or rotation players IMHO.
    yeah I see it the same way. With that deep of a draft class and the pick probably being in the low teens, I‘m not trading it. They could include the 2022 or 2023 pick though, that would make more sense

  22. #747
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    If the plan is to use Vucevic like a super sub/situational big like our boy Dejounte is proposing - the outgoing package needs to be proportional to how he will be used.

    Agree that we are well suited to make an offer, so wait for the deadline to dangle LA’s expiring and a second or way future protected first/swap. Giving up a 23 first doesn’t sting like a 21, and at this time with the depth of the draft I wouldn’t be chomping at the bit to sell our spot.

    I think there’s just some who get the taste of something new and want it so badly, not realizing that the dream scenario of creating a “5-6 seed pseudocontender” that is “about as good as a small market team can hope to do” is kinda where we already are right now, just minus our pick this summer and a rotation player with another year left before RFA. I will also absolutely continue to make the point that Jakob is a better fit for the surrounding roster and in any potential playoff scenario Vucevic will look borderline unplayable against capable offenses.
    Because let's face it: worse case scenario for Poeltl's career is that he's in foul trouble for half the games and elite at defense for the other half. What if we had 48 minutes of elite center play with Vucecic being the yang to Poeltl's yin. How will the Spurs fare if Poeltl goes down with an injury that will cause him to miss 10 games? Seems a player who can fill that void will help the Spurs not miss a beat in the regular season. If we look at our guard situation, we are a lot more confident about the depth we have there than we ever would without a nice backup center. Whether that would be Vucevic, a future 4/5, Luka, Collins, or whoever. It's a serious need. We can't rely on Eubanks to be our starter if Poeltl goes down. Something's got to give.

  23. #748
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    even if I agreed with your evaluation of our current team- I don’t think you can make the argument Vucevic and the package necessary to get him materially changes the reality of our team long term.

    spurs are far more likely to offer a 1+1 or a 2 year deal to Demar than they are to start piecing out assets for a player like Vucevic
    If your definition is true contender status, no. But every path is highly unlikely to yield that and the Spurs, like I'm sure every franchise in a non glamour market, would be thrilled if they could reach a tier below. It'd be unlikely they'd even reach that status, but not inconceivable.

    They wouldn't bother wasting DeRozan's time with an offer for less than 3 years and again, the assets would be a positional upgrade (Poeltl), a replacement player (Walker IV) and non top 3-5 picks (protected).

  24. #749
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    Because let's face it: worse case scenario for Poeltl's career is that he's in foul trouble for half the games and elite at defense for the other half. What if we had 48 minutes of elite center play with Vucecic being the yang to Poeltl's yin. How will the Spurs fare if Poeltl goes down with an injury that will cause him to miss 10 games? Seems a player who can fill that void will help the Spurs not miss a beat in the regular season. If we look at our guard situation, we are a lot more confident about the depth we have there than we ever would without a nice backup center. Whether that would be Vucevic, a future 4/5, Luka, Collins, or whoever. It's a serious need. We can't rely on Eubanks to be our starter if Poeltl goes down. Something's got to give.
    it’s clear he supplements the big man rotation. I don’t think there’s a discussion to be had otherwise.

    We can also supplement our front court in other ways. We don’t have to give up picks and players to do that and I have 0 real reason to think Vucevic necessitates even considering it.

  25. #750
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    yeah I see it the same way. With that deep of a draft class and the pick probably being in the low teens, I‘m not trading it. They could include the 2022 or 2023 pick though, that would make more sense
    Maybe look first at the prospects before you call it deep. It's looking like a ty draft past the 10th.

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