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  1. #101
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Agreed. Should be purely a state & local issue.
    ideally, sure, but states and localities are known to drag their feet.

    i do think it should be tied to a state or local cost of living index. and you could potentially mandate that federally, though nobody is really discussing that route.

    but a flat federal min wage seems like a very imprecise way to address the issue. your federal floor should basically be the same as the locality with the lowest cost of living, but that isnt doing much for most of the country.

  2. #102
    Veteran SpursforSix's Avatar
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    Plus the chips in brains and total connectivity.

    All this is coming.

  3. #103
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    And whenever bring up the about robots, most of the people I know just dismiss it. Or don't want to think about it.
    automation is going to replace a lot of jobs, and already does. a lot of fast food places already use those electronic ordering kiosks instead of cashiers. first time i saw that was at a McD's i went to in Roanoke that had that. was pretty cool tbh.

    and while automation does come with a cost of investment, that cost becomes more viable when the competing wages keep growing... but its an inevitability anyway, and while i didnt really pay attention to Yang as a candidate, he was the one bringing the most attention to that issue, which is going to hit us sooner or later. but until people see the crisis up close, they're not going to react to it (same with climate change)

  4. #104
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    ideally, sure, but states and localities are known to drag their feet.
    And the federal government isn't?

    i do think it should be tied to a state or local cost of living index. and you could potentially mandate that federally, though nobody is really discussing that route.
    There actually are a few states doing that, but not very many. Not a fan of federally mandating it though.

    but a flat federal min wage seems like a very imprecise way to address the issue. your federal floor should basically be the same as the locality with the lowest cost of living, but that isnt doing much for most of the country.
    Agreed. That's precisely my opposition to a federal minimum wage in the first place.

  5. #105
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    And the federal government isn't?
    thats when they have historically stepped in. same with integration, etc. when the local governments dont handle their , the feds step in. right now, 29 states have min wages above the current federal number. the other 21 dont.

    There actually are a few states doing that, but not very many. Not a fan of federally mandating it though.
    id rather the states do it. but far too many dont. think it would serve a good middle ground between doing nothing and setting a ham-fisted $15/hr

    Agreed. That's precisely my opposition to a federal minimum wage in the first place.
    i dont think $15 is good federal policy either.

  6. #106
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    Federal minimum must be scaled/indexed to local CoL, which has been and is very well known

    Federal minimum must be indexed to inflation to take it out of the political football game.

  7. #107
    Veteran SpursforSix's Avatar
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    automation is going to replace a lot of jobs, and already does. a lot of fast food places already use those electronic ordering kiosks instead of cashiers. first time i saw that was at a McD's i went to in Roanoke that had that. was pretty cool tbh.

    and while automation does come with a cost of investment, that cost becomes more viable when the competing wages keep growing... but its an inevitability anyway, and while i didnt really pay attention to Yang as a candidate, he was the one bringing the most attention to that issue, which is going to hit us sooner or later. but until people see the crisis up close, they're not going to react to it (same with climate change)
    That's a good comparison...global warming. I think the big difference is that GW will take a relatively long time to affect most people. Whereas robotics and AI will happen fairly quickly and displace millions of manual labor and low end service jobs within 10 years. At the least. There's enough compelling evidence to see plenty of management jobs also going away. Not to mention the medical community.

  8. #108
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Was just reading today Domino's is starting to deliver pizzas with drones... sure, they're crappy jobs, but it only puts more pressure on the labor market

  9. #109
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    Yep. Raising the minimum wage just makes the drones, kiosks, and self ordering apps get here quicker. 10 years from now fast food employment will probably be half of what it is today.

  10. #110
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    People don't want to work. Impossible to compete with the government and we're already offering $15 an hour and have been for the last 3 months.
    You can't even fathom how many people put in resumes and apps just to fill their UI claim forms.

  11. #111
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    Yep. Raising the minimum wage just makes the drones, kiosks, and self ordering apps get here quicker.
    That's why you see more and more self-checkouts popping up EVERYWHERE. Target, Walmart...to bad I can't get my own good checkout service at restaurants.

  12. #112
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    That's why you see more and more self-checkouts popping up EVERYWHERE. Target, Walmart...to bad I can't get my own good checkout service at restaurants.
    Precisely. Consumers moving to cashless payments more and more speeds this along as well.

  13. #113
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    That's a good comparison...global warming. I think the big difference is that GW will take a relatively long time to affect most people. Whereas robotics and AI will happen fairly quickly and displace millions of manual labor and low end service jobs within 10 years. At the least. There's enough compelling evidence to see plenty of management jobs also going away. Not to mention the medical community.
    yeah the timescales are probably different, but the concept is the same. the other issue with global warming is that we dont feel the effects of it until after its too late to prevent it.

    but onto automation, you are right that its a lot more imminent. this is where UBI will likely eventually kick in, or just generally the boogeyman of "redistribution of wealth." as human labor is replaced by machine labor, AND productivity increases, you just have a surplus of wealth going to the owners while they have no reason to pay wages and support the community. thats just a natural consequence of capitalism, so you are going to have to tax and establish some baseline UBI for those displaced workers (which will be a growing pool of people over time)

  14. #114
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    That's why you see more and more self-checkouts popping up EVERYWHERE. Target, Walmart...to bad I can't get my own good checkout service at restaurants.
    i tend to use the self checkout lines if i have a handful of products, like if i'm at a target/walmart/lowes... or if i had to pick up a quick 3-4 items at the grocery store. but if i have a lot of , i still prefer a cashier. they're usually quicker (especially when it comes to produce where its not always as simple as scanning a bar code), and i appreciate the help bagging items.

  15. #115
    Believe. Adam Lambert's Avatar
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    People don't want to work. Impossible to compete with the government and we're already offering $15 an hour and have been for the last 3 months.
    You can't even fathom how many people put in resumes and apps just to fill their UI claim forms.
    Unemployment runs out regardless of whether you're applying or not. Few people are living off of unemployment checks.

    It's not that people don't want to work. They don't want to take ty jobs. This country is top-heavy when it comes to good jobs. We don't have enough work for every able-bodied person to put in 40+ hours, but we still work people 60+ hours in a lot of cases. Then we leave the scraps as minimum wage hourly jobs.

    And even with those, the idea that people are taking government assistance instead of working is way overblown. I've worked with several restaurant managers who complained that no one was applying to work there when all they were doing was putting up a "Now Hiring" sign inside the store. One simple Facebook post later and they have a dozen applicants.

  16. #116
    Veteran SpursforSix's Avatar
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    i tend to use the self checkout lines if i have a handful of products, like if i'm at a target/walmart/lowes... or if i had to pick up a quick 3-4 items at the grocery store. but if i have a lot of , i still prefer a cashier. they're usually quicker (especially when it comes to produce where its not always as simple as scanning a bar code), and i appreciate the help bagging items.
    Same. Which is 90% of the time. Maybe twice a month, we get full groceries and I'll go through the manned lane. Or if I buy a bunch of fruit/vegetables that needs to be weighed or looked up. But "they'll" eventually figure out how to get rid of most of those as well with maybe full cart scanning or something. IDK. It doesn't seem like it'd be that hard or that we're far off from doing that. They'll have some shrinkage but not enough to offset the gains from getting rid of people. We already have car vending machines which is weird af to me. Not to mention the huge uptick in grocery delivery services.

  17. #117
    Believe. Adam Lambert's Avatar
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    For some reason, the narrative of people who can work but choose not to generates 100x the outrage compared to people who can hire but choose not to.

  18. #118
    Veteran SpursforSix's Avatar
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    Unemployment runs out regardless of whether you're applying or not. Few people are living off of unemployment checks.

    It's not that people don't want to work. They don't want to take ty jobs. This country is top-heavy when it comes to good jobs. We don't have enough work for every able-bodied person to put in 40+ hours, but we still work people 60+ hours in a lot of cases. Then we leave the scraps as minimum wage hourly jobs.

    And even with those, the idea that people are taking government assistance instead of working is way overblown. I've worked with several restaurant managers who complained that no one was applying to work there when all they were doing was putting up a "Now Hiring" sign inside the store. One simple Facebook post later and they have a dozen applicants.
    The problem is that I think the definition of " ty jobs" has significantly expanded.

  19. #119
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Same. Which is 90% of the time. Maybe twice a month, we get full groceries and I'll go through the manned lane. Or if I buy a bunch of fruit/vegetables that needs to be weighed or looked up. But "they'll" eventually figure out how to get rid of most of those as well with maybe full cart scanning or something. IDK. It doesn't seem like it'd be that hard or that we're far off from doing that. They'll have some shrinkage but not enough to offset the gains from getting rid of people. We already have car vending machines which is weird af to me. Not to mention the huge uptick in grocery delivery services.
    its weird to me too. i was actually looking at carvana when i was shopping for a car a few months ago. main reason i elected against it was that i wanted a certified pre-owned car, and thats only offered at franchise-licensed dealerships.

    but im very glad that the auto-sales industry is trending in that direction. companies like carmax started the trend of online shopping with no haggling. truecar has really changed the game, too, so many traditional dealerships are moving toward that model too (with some resistance, some dealerships will lower the price of the car to be compe ive on TrueCar and then just charge a lot of bull fees at the end of the transaction such that their out the door price is much higher than the similarly priced car at a different dealership)... but i think that industry is generally getting better

    it will take a while before people trust the "no haggle" dealerships though... decades of practice where customers knew that sticker prices were a ripoff, and if you didnt get a deal better than that, you were a sucker. now when a dealership tells you they are a one-price dealer, you still have the feeling in the back of your head that they are arbitrarily charging you more than they realistically need to

  20. #120
    Believe. Adam Lambert's Avatar
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    The problem is that I think the definition of " ty jobs" has significantly expanded.
    Maybe but jobs have gotten tier and pay has gotten worse.

    I would bet most minimum wage jobs in 1965 were much less soul-crushing than they are today.

  21. #121
    LMAO koriwhat's Avatar
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    Every time I've ever gone through a drive-thru it has proved to me that those people working the window should make less than minimum wage as it stands now.

  22. #122
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    Unemployment runs out regardless of whether you're applying or not. Few people are living off of unemployment checks.

    It's not that people don't want to work. They don't want to take ty jobs. This country is top-heavy when it comes to good jobs. We don't have enough work for every able-bodied person to put in 40+ hours, but we still work people 60+ hours in a lot of cases. Then we leave the scraps as minimum wage hourly jobs.

    And even with those, the idea that people are taking government assistance instead of working is way overblown. I've worked with several restaurant managers who complained that no one was applying to work there when all they were doing was putting up a "Now Hiring" sign inside the store. One simple Facebook post later and they have a dozen applicants.
    We're offering double minimum wage in most markets we are hiring. It's work from home. Paid training. Paid tens every 2 hours.

    Our weekly Indeed bill would pay rent for at least 3 families.

    I re-inherited hiring 60 days ago. I speak with TONS of business owners every week. Glad your restaurant friends were able to tap into an FB and be an exception.

    It's nationwide. My wife has an open assistant position that starts at $40k with little to no experience. She's never had a problem filling the vacancy in less than a week. She's going on 6 weeks with so few qualified applicants. She's in the medical space.

    It's not even a matter of why, but it has become a matter of fact. People don't want to work right now

  23. #123
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    Maybe but jobs have gotten tier and pay has gotten worse.

    I would bet most minimum wage jobs in 1965 were much less soul-crushing than they are today.
    Yeah, but people weren't as "thin-skinned" or "enlightened" as they were in 1965.

  24. #124
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Yeah, but people weren't as "thin-skinned" or "enlightened" as they were in 1965.
    "this new generation is full of en led brats" has been the complaint of every preceding generation in recorded history

  25. #125
    LMAO koriwhat's Avatar
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    Yeah, but people weren't as "thin-skinned" or "enlightened" as they were in 1965.

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