$15 minimum wage looks more possible

[coyotes_geek]

and yet for years those same industries have benefitted from increased production and efficiency without a proportional increase in wages

They can't have benefitted all that much, as both those industries are running in the neighborhood of single digit margins. That's not a lot of room to have gone up.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that you can certainly find industries where production and efficiency hasn't followed through with the increases in wages (tech & finance come to mind), but how many people in those industries are making min wage?

[coyotes_geek]

There are other factors, but I disagree with the basic argument you seem to be making. Production isn't the issue. Labor is more efficient now than it ever was before. Folks in the 60s had a higher wage controlled for inflation while not being as productive as modern employees. So in that regard, we are certainly producing enough as a society to where we should be able to have a higher minimum wage. The "uncomfortable discussion" that shows up in mainly based on economic assumptions that we've been taking as fact when they're not.

I agree, production isn't the issue. The value of the production relative to the value of the compensation is. I'm not disagreeing with any of you guys about the changes that have occurred over time in production or efficiency. Production or efficiency aren't the important metrics here. Did the employee generate more dollars for the business in one hour than the business had to spend to get the employee to be there? If yes, job exists. If no, job does not exist.

Automation should be making everyone's lives better. The reason why it's not is because we're directly allowing for individual private ownership of automated processes and AIs and allowing owners to trade out human labor for machine labor while pocketing the savings. We don't actually have to do that.

What's the alternative?

And don't get all Randian by suggesting that captains of industry would just stop making the world a better place if we taxed them more or did not allow them exclusive rights to automated processes. The US government is by far the largest funder of research and development, including AI. These advancements exist in large part because the government throws a ton of money at scientists in a way that a corporation really can't.

That's a different direction than where I was taking the conversation. My point here was about one guy working one hour and how many dollars he has to bring in compared to how many dollars his employer has to pay out.

Side note, thanks to you and everyone else for the fun conversation.

[ElNono]

You could be right about the bigger picture, but I do think we have an education problem. I think the skills gap is very real. We don't have nearly enough kids going into the STEM fields or the trades. I'm a hiring manager in one of the engineering fields and pretty much every hire I make is a multiple offer situation.

On the flip side, we've got a bunch of people graduating college with degrees they can't use and our high schools are cranking out way too many kids who aren't qualified to do anything more than work at McDonalds or Walmart.

I don't entirely disagree with you, but as a person that worked on the T, E and M fields of STEM for 30+ years and recently moved to management, it's not a panacea there either right now. You want highly qualified and most importantly, experienced folks working on the truly important stuff, the rest can be easily outsourced for a fraction of the cost.

One could argue that education plays a role somewhat, but it also greatly comes down to economics and disparate standards of living in a global economy. Manufacturing fell the same way. We sort of tried to reinvent ourselves as a services economy, but services are slowly but surely going by the wayside too.

I was just talking about this in another thread not long ago. These unskilled jobs used to be the sort of things that only applied to kids and summer jobs, particularly in the US (it is different in Europe, etc), but they're increasingly becoming more like safety nets for adults losing their jobs until they can get something else.

Even before the pandemic with the rosy employment numbers, there was a lot of under-employment and part-time jobs with next to no benefits. And it's not just retail or food industries, it's across the board.

[SnakeBoy]

Interesting discussion with some good points but it might be worthwhile to consider the actual makeup of the workforce and the effect it has on wages in the discussion

[ElNono]

Interesting discussion with some good points but it might be worthwhile to consider the actual makeup of the workforce and the effect it has on wages in the discussion

Not sure that graph really says much, if anything, about wages. Are we to infer something about the workforce age related to wages?

What I do think it says is that the labor market is overall shrinking, even more so in first world countries. There's a lot of different reads for that, some of which we touched upon here, like automation or outsourcing.

[boutons_deux]

[boutons_deux]

[Winehole23]

[Winehole23]

[ElNono]

attention whoring

[boutons_deux]

Mitch McConnell wants his conference to say nice things about these 2 Democrats


Keep Sens. Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema close and publicly praise them, Mitch McConnell explained, because

they could “save this ins ution.”

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/04/15/joe-manchin-kyrsten-sinema-filibuster-481568

[Winehole23]

[boutons_deux]

In Closed-Door Event With Corporate Lobbyists, Manchin Vows $15 Wage 'Not Going to Happen'

A top restaurant industry lobbyist reportedly "couldn't contain his excitement" at the West Virginia Democrat's remarks.

https://www.commondreams.org/news/20...t-going-happen

The Cons ution s America, one man can keep 10Ms of people in abject poverty, including his own voters, but he knows the poverty-wage industries will reward him with $Ms

[Isitjustme?]

In Closed-Door Event With Corporate Lobbyists, Manchin Vows $15 Wage 'Not Going to Happen'

A top restaurant industry lobbyist reportedly "couldn't contain his excitement" at the West Virginia Democrat's remarks.

https://www.commondreams.org/news/20...t-going-happen

The Cons ution s America, one man can keep 10Ms of people in abject poverty, including his own voters, but he knows the poverty-wage industries will reward him with $Ms

It was clear when we got only 50 senate seats there was no chance of the $15 minimum wage happening.More people should have followed biden's lead and ran like a Biden style campaign. We would have been better off. Also Cal Cunningham should have kept his ing in his pants

[boutons_deux]

[boutons_deux]

Chipotle minimum wage hike to $15 deals 'psychological' blow to restaurant industry

Chipotle's minimum wage hike could spell profit doom for rivals that are forced to follow suit to retain workers,

while also lacking the compelling menus to justify price increases on diners.

The company is also offering

employee referral bonuses of $200 for restaurant workers and

$750 for general managers.

It touted the ability to be a manager of several Chipotle restaurants — a position it calls a restaurateur — within four years.

The position pays more than $100,000 a year, Chipotle said.

The burrito chain is looking to fill 20,000 restaurant positions.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/chipo...171807102.html

[Adam Lambert]

Oh now my Burrito Bowl is gonna be $20!

[RandomGuy]

You could be right about the bigger picture, but I do think we have an education problem. I think the skills gap is very real. We don't have nearly enough kids going into the STEM fields or the trades. I'm a hiring manager in one of the engineering fields and pretty much every hire I make is a multiple offer situation.

On the flip side, we've got a bunch of people graduating college with degrees they can't use and our high schools are cranking out way too many kids who aren't qualified to do anything more than work at McDonalds or Walmart.

And the trades are screaming for people.

A bit dated, but trend hasn't reversed itself:
https://www.contractormag.com/plumbi...nd-opportunity

[DarrinS]

Oh now my Burrito Bowl is gonna be $20!

The food poisoning will cost more.

[coyotes_geek]

And the trades are screaming for people.

A bit dated, but trend hasn't reversed itself:
https://www.contractormag.com/plumbi...nd-opportunity

Yep. I couldn't find the link but I remember reading a piece recently about how the US economy is losing thousands of electricians and plumbers a year because there aren't enough entry level folks to keep up with retirements. As a country we need to invest a whole lot more into vocational training in high schools.

[Chinook]

Yeah, I mean, obviously. We have to weird idea that owners are "makers" and poor people are "takers", when the poor people work ty jobs in order to keep the country running while owners get paid simply for owning a product other people's work makes valuable. It's like literally the opposite but for some reason folks in the US still push the dumb logic, even poor folks.

[boutons_deux]

Capitalism is the TAKER and non-Capitalists are the TAKEN

[leemajors]

Yep. I couldn't find the link but I remember reading a piece recently about how the US economy is losing thousands of electricians and plumbers a year because there aren't enough entry level folks to keep up with retirements. As a country we need to invest a whole lot more into vocational training in high schools.

We would have to actually invest money in schools.

[coyotes_geek]

We would have to actually invest money in schools.

Yes. We should do exactly that.

[Trill Clinton]