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  1. #76
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    Sure.

    So you think being religious is anti science?
    Lets start with that.
    Are you ready?

  2. #77
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    Of course it is, if religion is defined as such:

    the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.


    This guy gives a good look at how they are incompatible.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...-coyne/396362/


    Go ahead, go with the accommodationist approach.

  3. #78
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    Of course it is, if religion is defined as such:

    the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.


    This guy gives a good look at how they are incompatible.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...-coyne/396362/


    Go ahead, go with the accommodationist approach.
    without reading it, my opinion.

    Science is a human activity just like philosophy or the belief in the super natural that is clearly fallible.
    But it is also very rigorous approach to our notion of "knowing" , especially when variables can be removed.
    And more important than anything: Science must be used only on questions that can be refuted through a more rigorous and not as easily used methods. Observation, experimentation, more observation, possible answers, more experimentation... continue on I could also go into the importance of data taking and statistical analysis of data to get a hold on probability.

    Philosophy and religion do not rely on such rigorous and a more focused way of knowing. Science just cant answer near as many questions (especially ethics and morality) as the first two, (although studying cultural evolution along with biological evolution might yield some thoughts on why we are moral ethical animals.

    So these ventures into a way of us thinking we know are different from each other. But alike in they try to answer questions about the world and ourselves that we have.

  4. #79
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    off the cuff and not well worded, but there you go.

    Thoughts?

    And I will not read the article to taint my assertions yet.
    But Im sure when I do we can take specific points made and discuss.

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  6. #81
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    without reading it, my opinion.

    Science is a human activity just like philosophy or the belief in the super natural that is clearly fallible.
    But it is also very rigorous approach to our notion of "knowing" , especially when variables can be removed.
    And more important than anything: Science must be used only on questions that can be refuted through a more rigorous and not as easily used methods. Observation, experimentation, more observation, possible answers, more experimentation... continue on I could also go into the importance of data taking and statistical analysis of data to get a hold on probability.

    Philosophy and religion do not rely on such rigorous and a more focused way of knowing. Science just cant answer near as many questions (especially ethics and morality) as the first two, (although studying cultural evolution along with biological evolution might yield some thoughts on why we are moral ethical animals.

    So these ventures into a way of us thinking we know are different from each other. But alike in they try to answer questions about the world and ourselves that we have.
    Answering questions with make believe isn't answering anything. So eternity, life after death, invisible sky daddy... all of that is somehow philosophy to you? Creationism, resurrection, miracles of Jesus... all of that isn't anti-science?

    Praying to an invisible god for things and claiming prayer matters, that god answers prayers, etc...

    And don't forget about the Muslims.

    Yeah... no.

  7. #82
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    Adam only has time when he has what he thinks is a clever retort. Religion is taboo to him "muh science".

  8. #83
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    Answering questions with make believe isn't answering anything. So eternity, life after death, invisible sky daddy... all of that is somehow philosophy to you? Creationism, resurrection, miracles of Jesus... all of that isn't anti-science?

    Praying to an invisible god for things and claiming prayer matters, that god answers prayers, etc...

    And don't forget about the Muslims.

    Yeah... no.
    Answering ethical questions is clearly a part of philosophy AND RELIGION.
    You are completely daft if you cant see this. How do you know there is an eternity or an end for "you' or for anything else.

    And no it is does not have to be anti science at all. Science cant prove or disprove the existence of God or God's as many would define them. It is NOT the purview of science. Can science answer if it is wrong to kill? This IS A QUESTION.
    What does science say about eternity?
    wft is eternity?

    We, as human beings, have clearly grappled with all kinds of answers to our own existence for a very long time. You think science is gonna solve this? Did you ask to be born? I did not. Why were you born, why did you come into existence? How the fck do you answer these things with science? This has been apart of human thinking for at least 30,000 years, you think it ends because, SCIENCE?
    And when i say you I can mean the biological you that is a mass of neurons that have died off and grown with environmental input since your birth and form the thing that you call you. Do you really think this is easy? Now it might be a useless exercise for your biological self, but you will ponder it anyway. If you dont, you are not human.
    Last edited by pgardn; 02-22-2021 at 09:09 PM.

  9. #84
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    Dont forget the Muslims...

    Are you serious?

    You want to parse this down to some insignificant level of the religions we have TODAY?
    We have been practicing this for at least 30,000 years... for Christ sakes... yeah?

  10. #85
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    Answering ethical questions is clearly a part of philosophy AND RELIGION.
    You are completely daft if you cant see this. How do you know there is an eternity or an end for "you' or for anything else.

    And no it is does not have to be anti science at all. Science cant prove or disprove the existence of God or God's as many would define them. It is NOT the purview of science. Can science answer if it is wrong to kill? This IS A QUESTION.
    What does science say about eternity?
    wft is eternity?

    We, as human beings, have clearly grappled with all kinds of answers to our own existence for a very long time. You think science is gonna solve this? Did you ask to be born? I did not. Why were you born, why did you come into existence? How the fck do you answer these things with science? This has been apart of human thinking for at least 30,000 years, you think it ends because, SCIENCE?
    And when i say you I can mean the biological you that is a mass of neurons that have died off and grown with environmental input since your birth and form the thing that you call you. Do you really think this is easy? Now it might be a useless exercise for your biological self, but you will ponder it anyway. If you dont, you are not human.
    How does religion address ethics? Because god says so? Because it's a sin? Ethics though divine edict?

    And you call me daft?

    Grappled with our own existence... what exactly does that mean?

    If science cannot solve it, religion sure as cannot. Making up crazy to feel better about having an existential crisis doesn't equate to answers.

    "If you don't, you're not human" - more bull and the "no true Scotsman" fallacy rears its ugly head.
    Last edited by DMC; 02-22-2021 at 09:33 PM.

  11. #86
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    Dont forget the Muslims...

    Are you serious?

    You want to parse this down to some insignificant level of the religions we have TODAY?
    We have been practicing this for at least 30,000 years... for Christ sakes... yeah?
    You're fighting a losing battle. Religion is a joke. Using make believe as a coping mechanism != "looking for answers". It equals making up. So it was made up thousands of years ago, still make believe. It's adult Santa Claus and the fact you're defending it so heavily just shows, once again, how taboo the subject is to pit against science. You want to pretend to be scientifically minded yet you still cling to thousand year old supers ions. Not much different than people who deny global warming or evolution.

    And stop trying to remove the god belief from the equation, that's your flowers in the attic, it's part and parcel of religion.

  12. #87
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    How does religion address ethics? Because god says so? Because it's a sin? Ethics though divine edict?

    And you call me daft?

    Grappled with our own existence... what exactly does that mean?

    If science cannot solve it, religion sure as cannot. Making up crazy to feel better about having an existential crisis doesn't equate to answers.

    "If you don't, you're not human" - more bull and the "no true Scotsman" fallacy rears its ugly head.
    Lets do this one thing a time because you clearly dont think.
    You do not think about YOUR existence?

  13. #88
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    Lets do this one thing a time because you clearly dont think.
    You do not think about YOUR existence?
    It doesn't matter what I do or do not do. It has no bearing on the claim that religion and science are incompatible. I could be the most devout theist of all time, and still the claim would have to rest on its own merits.

    So go ahead and show how science and religion are compatible, because a good portion of the Democratic party professes a belief in the supernatural. Like you are doing here, they hem and haw about it and change the subject after dropping a verse or a comment about how faith guides them. It's taboo to question it. When is the last time a reporter challenged either side on the silliness of the god belief?

  14. #89
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    "The Crew" after the religion bomb


  15. #90
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    says who? you? what are your credentials to make that claim?
    Are you qualified ?

  16. #91
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    You have no familiarity with science as well.
    We make models that say things work like this (some metaphor we can use our senses for)
    Then we apply these models to things we CANNOT sense directly. But indirectly we measure and tinker and come up with a new model, like for EM waves. Then we put math to it. We do this over and over and over in science. So now we maybe get down to the level of the small and we invent the field model because it seems to help us fit math with it. Then an observation is made that does not fit this model is made and we change the model and then... all these brand new questions arise, they just explode with the new observations. So many new models have to be made. So we make more models. But the models for the way the Higgs field works but it contradicts the model for gravitational, electric and magnetic fields. But it works, so we go merrily along because it can make predictions. Then a new phenomena is observed that does not fit what the model predicts.
    Do you really think this is going to come to an end? That there is an equation or model for everything? Really? You think science is that mighty to take on every aspect of thoughts? If anything I could argue it is getting more tedious by exploding into thousands of new questions that lead down a brand new path that is one of many paths.

    But it does work most of the time in predicting and making our lives different (some would argue much more comfortable). So science rules. Yes it is fantastic stuff. But as far as answering everything... no fckn way. I would agree that merely making things up seems silly. But then it kind slaps one in the face when you see how science is very limited in finding some very fundamental rules that need answers. The math we rely on may even be massively flawed. (Read K. Goedel)
    I can give you some podcasts of some of the best physicists, that I cannot possibly keep up with the math, but who basically see what I have written above. Do you want them.

    https://lexfridman.com/podcast/

    I suggest starting with the podcast with Harry Cliff. Then keep going.
    Fridman sounds like a goofball, but he asks everyman type questions to very smart people, and some not so smart
    I would stick with the physics guys. When you listen to one, give me a heads up. Maybe you will get what I wrote above.

  17. #92
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    It doesn't matter what I do or do not do. It has no bearing on the claim that religion and science are incompatible. I could be the most devout theist of all time, and still the claim would have to rest on its own merits.

    So go ahead and show how science and religion are compatible, because a good portion of the Democratic party professes a belief in the supernatural. Like you are doing here, they hem and haw about it and change the subject after dropping a verse or a comment about how faith guides them. It's taboo to question it. When is the last time a reporter challenged either side on the silliness of the god belief?
    I did not ask if it matters fathead.
    I asked do YOU think about YOUR existence.

    There is a mul ude of stuff that does not matter...

    And I AM NOT expressing a belief in the super natural. I am explaining absolutely why it think it exists and is popular. As popular a method of understanding as science.

  18. #93
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    "The Crew" after the religion bomb

    the irony...

    Yes. I still remember you and your ability to measure and read windspeed without a visual.

  19. #94
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    You have no familiarity with science as well.
    Sure

    And that somehow gives religion some leeway?
    We make models that say things work like this (some metaphor we can use our senses for)
    Then we apply these models to things we CANNOT sense directly. But indirectly we measure and tinker and come up with a new model, like for EM waves. Then we put math to it. We do this over and over and over in science. So now we maybe get down to the level of the small and we invent the field model because it seems to help us fit math with it. Then an observation is made that does not fit this model is made and we change the model and then... all these brand new questions arise, they just explode with the new observations. So many new models have to be made. So we make more models. But the models for the way the Higgs field works but it contradicts the model for gravitational, electric and magnetic fields. But it works, so we go merrily along because it can make predictions. Then a new phenomena is observed that does not fit what the model predicts.
    Do you really think this is going to come to an end? That there is an equation or model for everything? Really? You think science is that mighty to take on every aspect of thoughts? If anything I could argue it is getting more tedious by exploding into thousands of new questions that lead down a brand new path that is one of many paths.

    But it does work most of the time in predicting and making our lives different (some would argue much more comfortable). So science rules. Yes it is fantastic stuff. But as far as answering everything... no fckn way. I would agree that merely making things up seems silly. But then it kind slaps one in the face when you see how science is very limited in finding some very fundamental rules that need answers. The math we rely on may even be massively flawed. (Read K. Goedel)
    I can give you some podcasts of some of the best physicists, that I cannot possibly keep up with the math, but who basically see what I have written above. Do you want them.

    https://lexfridman.com/podcast/

    I suggest starting with the podcast with Harry Cliff. Then keep going.
    Fridman sounds like a goofball, but he asks everyman type questions to very smart people, and some not so smart
    I would stick with the physics guys. When you listen to one, give me a heads up. Maybe you will get what I wrote above.
    Again, you keep using the term "answering".

    What does religion answer? Regardless how limited science is, there's no reason to think religion fills the void. It's simply made up concepts from thousands of years ago and people like you keep trying to shoehorn it into science.

    So far what you've offered:

    1. I am daft because I don't believe in god
    2. If you don't struggle with an existential crisis you aren't human
    3. Religion answers things science cannot

    What you haven't done:

    1. Explain what religion answers
    2. Explain how religion answers anything
    3. Explain how religion and science are compatible.

    It's your claim, go ahead and support it.

  20. #95
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    the irony...

    Yes. I still remember you and your ability to measure and read windspeed without a visual.
    Don't get off track with the same old stupid . Either you have the answer or you don't. Turn to religion if you don't since you think are are basically science turned man.

  21. #96
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    I did not ask if it matters fathead.
    I asked do YOU think about YOUR existence.

    There is a mul ude of stuff that does not matter...

    And I AM NOT expressing a belief in the super natural. I am explaining absolutely why it think it exists and is popular. As popular a method of understanding as science.
    Appeal to popularity now.

  22. #97
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    Sure

    And that somehow gives religion some leeway?

    Again, you keep using the term "answering".

    What does religion answer? Regardless how limited science is, there's no reason to think religion fills the void. It's simply made up concepts from thousands of years ago and people like you keep trying to shoehorn it into science.

    So far what you've offered:

    1. I am daft because I don't believe in god
    2. If you don't struggle with an existential crisis you aren't human
    3. Religion answers things science cannot

    What you haven't done:

    1. Explain what religion answers
    2. Explain how religion answers anything
    3. Explain how religion and science are compatible.

    It's your claim, go ahead and support it.
    You cant read.
    Religion and philosophy answer questions on ethical and moral issues. They also GIVE answers to our understanding of ourselves. YOU dont like them. I dont either actually, but I get why the exist and then taken with the pitfalls of science that some people claim science is itself, just another endeavor to explain what we want to know. And not all that great when it comes to fundamentals given the state of what physics gives us. Biology... an utter mess of uncontrolled phenomena. Yes we get some fantastic stuff out. But the questions keep exploding.

    "They are not machines, they are INSTRUMENTS" You are so OCD you cant think beyond a punctuation error I make.

    You continue your old game of making false assertions I have made. I said you were daft because you dont understand science.
    Because you dont.

  23. #98
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    Appeal to popularity now.
    Emoticon.

    Triggered.

    Popularity on this board as a whole is definitely the belief there is NO sky god.
    I am arguing that I understand perfectly why people have for 30,000 years, and will still (even with the rise of science) believe in the supernatural because SCIENCE cannot explain as much as YOU think it can. People actually thought there was an equation or set of equations that could explain everything. They still do. I say NO fckn way. We dont have the capability.

    This you cant fathom for some reason.

  24. #99
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    You cant read.
    Religion and philosophy answer questions on ethical and moral issues. They also GIVE answers to our understanding of ourselves. YOU dont like them. I dont either actually, but I get why the exist and then taken with the pitfalls of science that some people claim science is itself, just another endeavor to explain what we want to know. And not all that great when it comes to fundamentals given the state of what physics gives us. Biology... an utter mess of uncontrolled phenomena. Yes we get some fantastic stuff out. But the questions keep exploding.

    "They are not machines, they are INSTRUMENTS" You are so OCD you cant think beyond a punctuation error I make.

    You continue your old game of making false assertions I have made. I said you were daft because you dont understand science.
    Because you dont.
    That's like "this magic pill along with a sensible diet and exercise will help you lose weight"

    Leave philosophy out of it. We are talking about religion, which I clearly defined earlier.

    E-peen "I know more science than you" measuring attempt aside:

    What does religion answer?
    How does religion answer anything?

    How is science compatible with religion?

  25. #100
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    Emoticon.

    Triggered.

    Popularity on this board as a whole is definitely the belief there is NO sky god.
    I am arguing that I understand perfectly why people have for 30,000 years, and will still (even with the rise of science) believe in the supernatural because SCIENCE cannot explain as much as YOU think it can. People actually thought there was an equation or set of equations that could explain everything. They still do. I say NO fckn way. We dont have the capability.

    This you cant fathom for some reason.
    I never made the claim that you didn't understand why people believe in fairytale . I said they do, and Democrats do, and that's not compatible with science.

    Now you've gone on and on about how much science you know and yet you cannot figure out how to get back to the point.

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