I remember his first year when Murray really struggled with Lonzo Ball while he was in LA. Ball was too strong and gummed him up on defense and while that Lakers team was trash, Ball was much better on offense.
Since then, Ball seems to have stagnated. The advanced metrics suggest he is no longer a plus defender, while Murray is, while Ball remains the better offensive threat. Meanwhile, it seems like Murray is making a leap and is heading upward and Ball's future with the NOP is in doubt.
Just an observation, watching NO play Boston right now. Hard work paying off for Murray, while Ball just seems like the same player he was.
teams wasting their top 10 picks while the Spurs keep churning out quality players with so little. What else is new? People here give more respect to the former though, as if the results have been much better. They say, "well, Spurs don't deserve our trust."
You also wonder if it's because of the win mentality and being surrounded by vets (two things Spurstalk morons are highly against) attributed to the more positive development of DJ.
It's all because people can't see beyond a one year plan as opposed to a five year one.
I've always maintained that tanking develops losing culture. And it sticks. You should always strive to win. But you also need to control your contracts and not force it.
This is why the brigade for selling off all our vets are misguided.
lonzo always hits 3's like steph curry against us
Yeah, welcome to the fun adventure of recycling coaches for decades if you introduce that to your culture.
But there is the risk if not the certainty that you might become a treadmill team for years hovering around the 7th-8th seed because you don't have the top tier talent to really compete and not fool yourself that you actually do.
We are in danger of becoming just that, the Hornets and the Magic of the West. Lets hope we don't.
Fake news. Look at the top 16 teams this season and you'll see none of them have been vaulted into consistent deep playoff runs by top tier top 10 drafted talent and they've been treadmill outside of a single season of a deep playoff run in the past decade. The most successful teams are ones who get there by shrewd moves or because theyre a big market and lame ass stars want to team up there.
A lot of people have been fooled by this illusion. Can't think past drooling over top 10 talent without the nuances behind it.
Sixers - two top 10 drafted players with barely any success behind it. Treadmill fool's gold team that always gets wiped out in the playoffs.
Brooklyn - didn't draft top 10 talent for the roster they have now.
Milwaukee - Giannis wasn't a top 10 pick.
Boston - they've made a couple deep runs but now look like
Toronto - They didn't draft top 10 talent to win their championship
Charlotte - they've had multiple top 10 picks and you don't think they're a treadmill team?
Knicks - again, multiple top 10 picks and you don't think they're a treadmill team?
Same for Chicago.
Same for Orlando.
Same for Cleveland.
I can go on and on for most of the teams.
Drafting in the top 10 PROMISES NOTHING.
Lmao at the notion that tanking means you're immune to being a treadmill team.
Last edited by Dejounte; 02-21-2021 at 08:00 PM.
The coaching carousel certainly doesn't help, but Ball and Brandon Ingram both look like they've plateaued as players. Sure, Ingram gets tons of press, but he just doesn't move the needle for me. While Zion is impacting games, Ingram does exactly what Anthony Davis did for the Pelicans -- put up stats, lose games. You forget he's there for long stretches and only on occasion does he hit shots when they matter.
There is always the concern that you end up on a treadmill.
So far, I think the Spurs may have played it right. Yes, they are no where near winning a le, but they've got good prospects (outside of the new Ball), probably better charlotte or Orlando despite consistently drafting lower.
I was for blowing up a few years ago, but think I may be wrong. Expectations due filter down. Winning, expecting hard work, but also investing, treating people right.
Too bad Nephew never saw that. The Spurs came very close to being a contender for over a quarter century without lottery picks or multiple superstar free agents. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt
I don’t really know anyone who thought Lonzo Ball would pan out. Also Magic was in charge and almost everybody on Spurstalk was ting on the Lakers for that and rightfully so.
Also I remember a lot of articles praising us for picking DJ and saying he was a lottery level talent
You become a treadmill team when you jump to soon. By signing a max contract while your own friendly contracts. Which could be the case with Collins of he doesn't turn out.
Those comments about DJM weren't that common.
As for Ball, it's hard to determine beyond the immense hype. The LAL and fan base (and media) always exaggerate their players' abilities, but Lonzo isn't really a bad player. It's just that he's not improving and doesn't seem to make his team much better. But then the NOP have problems.
For me, it was a hard pass on Lonzo and I really wanted Lamelo. He was the one I was hoping the Spurs would draft (tho I like Wiseman too) if the rumors of LMA for the #2 pick were true. You can’t be passive in today’s NBA when all the rules are made for offense. Also Lonzo’s shot was beyond atrocious. It made Kevin Martin flinch
**edit** didn’t Lebron and Crawford both say we were getting a of a player in DJ? Or am I remembering wrong
Lets see one by one your examples. The Sixers were a fluky Nephew shot away from going to the finals imo. They would've beaten the Bucks(i don't trust the Bucks and Bud at all), They have a real shot this year imo.Sixers - two top 10 drafted players with barely any success behind it. Treadmill fool's gold team that always gets wiped out in the playoffs.
Brooklyn - didn't draft top 10 talent for the roster they have now.
Milwaukee - Giannis wasn't a top 10 pick.
Boston - they've made a couple deep runs but now look like
Toronto - They didn't draft top 10 talent to win their championship
Charlotte - they've had multiple top 10 picks and you don't think they're a treadmill team?
Knicks - again, multiple top 10 picks and you don't think they're a treadmill team?
Same for Chicago.
Same for Orlando.
Same for Cleveland.
I can go on and on for most of the teams.
Drafting in the top 10 PROMISES NOTHING.
Lmao at the notion that tanking means you're immune to being a treadmill team.
Brooklyn is in a big market unlike us, can't use them as an example
Bucks were just lucky but they f.cked up by having a fed ex guy for a GM because their owners want to meddle
Boston is one legit big away of true contention but they have the talent in place to become true contenters in the not distant future, young players need time to evolve even if they are top talent and i'm pretty sure Tatum is gonna be pretty great and even Brown, i'm not sure i can say that about our guys.
Toronto has probably the best GM in the NBA and a top 3 coach imo and they lucked into taking nephew.
Charlotte have GM MJ, nothing else needs to be said.
Orlando is the 8th seed for a few years now, they dont draft high, they were the definition of treadmill team, maybe they can tank properly this season.
Cleveland used their tanking lottery picks and got Love and won the chip, you forgot about that.
A team with a competent GM can tank and go straight to contention. We're not talking about incompetent organizations(Knicks,Bulls)
Watch out, delete this before TD sees this and starts calling you a vanilla fan
Philly is flatlining. They have chemistry issues.
Bucks, who cares? They're not contenders.
Boston is far more than big away from contention. Kemba is bad and they lost Hayward for nothing. Even before, they were paper tigers.
The rest of the conference is terrible. The Nets are the only contender.
I'm going to say that of Sixers don't win with this core before they done, then the process was a complete failure. You don't become a joke of the league and the worst team in history, then not win.
Murray is one of the better defensive guards in the league, and is an excellent rebounder for the position (cannot overstate how important it is). His assists per 100 possessions are slightly higher than Ball’s, while his turnovers are lower. Higher usage as well. Gets to the line more, and converts more at the line though Lonzo has improved from Poeltl levels earlier in career.
Will be curious to see where Ball’s contract winds up. He’s totally decent as a player, and being picked at #2 probably hurts his reputation as people expected more but he’s fine.
I think tanking if done correctly can be a good thing. Has to be balanced though, a team can’t just tank for the sake of getting a high draft pick. The goal for tanking teams has to be to get a high draft pick AND accelerate the development of its young players. I personally think we as Spurs fans shouldn’t worry too much if they tank, at least we know they’ll have the young guys try to play the right way and not just encourage them to suck, unlike the Trust the process Sixers of Hinkie.
It’s the winning environment also. These high picks normally go to mediocre teams, with the exception of Dubs who were in the same Spurs situation 24 years ago. There’s a reason why they’re mediocre, bad management, bad development for their players. While Spurs had long history of contending that young draftees learn from, not to mention PATFO also doesn’t go with the hypes, which sometimes infuriates some fans who didn’t know any better.
I think if Lonzo were with the Spurs, he would already be a star. He has the size, the bball IQ and court awareness. DJ in Sacramento or Pelicans would have fizzled already. If Lonzo could get into a good team, I think he can do better.
GS leaned into tanking last season. It was the right move. I think the Spurs should have tanked the end of that Kawhi season when we knew he wasn’t playing in the playoffs. To me, that was a lost golden opportunity to try and sneak into the lottery.
As for the Spurs situation now, I think some people are conflating tanking with something that feels like point shaving. Players play to get paid, especially young ones. They at least want to get stats. They will try. Honestly, playing Forbes and Marco for so long felt like tanking, but it was just Pop not trusting his young players yet and the Bubble helped correct the situation. Moving forward we play our best players and try to develop our players and see what happens.
I disagree about Boston, they have their two main guys in place, they are going to win int he next 5 years, i'm almost certain of that, it's Boston, of course they're gonna win, that's how it goes.
Nets are one KD injury away of becoming irrelevant again and unfortunately for KD that is a huge possibility with his recent history, i'm still not sure he's gonna make it until the end this season.
Finally, if i'm Philly i'm going for Lowry now because the East is open if KD goes down.
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