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  1. #2526
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    I’m torn between Wagner and Jalen Johnson. Wagner seems like a low-risk, medium-reward prospect, while Johnson is medium-risk, high-reward.
    Wagner is practically no risk. Johnson is high risk.

  2. #2527
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    I get it and that’s astonishing. But the process of assembling that team was nothing every other team has not done, each year bringing someone. Can you really pinpoint exactly when they envisioned that roster? With the Suns, it was more decisive. They drafted wisely with Booker and Ayton, then made a big move to bring CP3 to push it to the next level.

    But not to discredit both teams, they were lucky with teams having injuries with key players. More likelihood, it would be the Clips/Lakers vs Nets in the Finals.
    The Suns made some incredibly awful draft picks. They even sold some away a decade back to save the owner money. Ayton's surprised me, but Booker is still not at Young or Ja's level. He just has Chris Paul with him now. Without Paul, they'd still be languishing in mediocrity. I have doubts they could do this on their own.

  3. #2528
    Veteran R. DeMurre's Avatar
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    I’m torn between Wagner and Jalen Johnson. Wagner seems like a low-risk, medium-reward prospect, while Johnson is medium-risk, high-reward.
    The interesting thing about Jalen Johnson is that whatever his issues are, I don't think a casual fan will really have the ability to judge him, given the cir stances. He won a high school state championship and he put up great numbers at Duke when he was given minutes (which was rarely), but all of the problems seem to be entirely behind the scenes and interpersonal. Of course the internet being the internet, people will have strong uninformed opinions anyway, but it'll all be based on guessing what happened behind the scenes with no actual direct information. I'll admit that watching him in interviews doesn't exactly give me good vibes-- his personality seems very subtly shifty and defensive, but that perception could definitely be enhanced by his reputation, which I was aware of before I watched any interviews. On the other hand his highlight reel at Duke, despite his having played very few minutes and only 13 games, looks more impressive than that of guys who played twice as many games and averaged 30 mpg. His passing at times reminds me of Jokic, who was passed up by all 30 teams in the league mostly because he was overweight and had a reputation for being lazy. Both of those things might've been true when he was an immature 18 year old, but he's now an MVP.
    Last edited by R. DeMurre; 07-04-2021 at 02:17 PM.

  4. #2529
    Veteran R. DeMurre's Avatar
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    I think if the Suns win it all, there will be the inevitable rush by some to say they are now a prime example of how to construct a team in the modern NBA, but I'm going to take all of that with a grain of salt. They beat three teams missing key players in Anthony Davis, Jamal Murray, and Kawhi. If AD is healthy, the Suns possibly lose in the first round and people say you can't compete with a traditional big, a shooting guard who can't defend, and an undersized PG.

  5. #2530
    Veteran ginobilized's Avatar
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    The interesting thing about Jalen Johnson is that whatever his issues are, I don't think a casual fan will really have the ability to judge him, given the cir stances. He won a high school state championship and he put up great numbers at Duke when he was given minutes (which was rarely), but all of the problems seem to be entirely behind the scenes and interpersonal. Of course the internet being the internet, people will have strong uninformed opinions anyway, but it'll all be based on guessing what happened behind the scenes with no actual direct information. I'll admit that watching him in interviews doesn't exactly give me good vibes-- his personality seems very subtly shifty and defensive, but that perception could definitely be enhanced by his reputation, which I was aware of before I watched any interviews. On the other hand his highlight reel at Duke, despite his having played very few minutes and only 13 games, looks more impressive than that of guys who played twice as many games and averaged 30 mpg. His passing at times reminds me of Jokic, who was passed up by all 30 teams in the league mostly because he was overweight and had a reputation for being lazy. Both of those things might've been true when he was an immature 18 year old, but he's also this year's MVP.
    Great points! It’s really hard to read Jalen Johnson. He doesn’t feel like a Spur to me.
    The fact the Duke seemed to play better after he “quit” speaks volumes. The talent and size are there, though.

  6. #2531
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    Trey Murphy and then we purchase playoff tickets

  7. #2532
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    The interesting thing about Jalen Johnson is that whatever his issues are, I don't think a casual fan will really have the ability to judge him, given the cir stances. He won a high school state championship and he put up great numbers at Duke when he was given minutes (which was rarely), but all of the problems seem to be entirely behind the scenes and interpersonal. Of course the internet being the internet, people will have strong uninformed opinions anyway, but it'll all be based on guessing what happened behind the scenes with no actual direct information. I'll admit that watching him in interviews doesn't exactly give me good vibes-- his personality seems very subtly shifty and defensive, but that perception could definitely be enhanced by his reputation, which I was aware of before I watched any interviews. On the other hand his highlight reel at Duke, despite his having played very few minutes and only 13 games, looks more impressive than that of guys who played twice as many games and averaged 30 mpg. His passing at times reminds me of Jokic, who was passed up by all 30 teams in the league mostly because he was overweight and had a reputation for being lazy. Both of those things might've been true when he was an immature 18 year old, but he's also this year's MVP.
    He got on court issue too.

    As soon as Jalen Johnson chucked a pass some 10 feet off target late in the Bellarmine game, Mike Krzyzewski said to his staff what looked to be a harsh four-word description for the frustrating uber-athlete, including one particularly harsh four-letter word. It doesn’t take a lip-reading expert to decipher from the telecast what the 41st-year Duke chief appeared to note to his crew:
    “He’s so [expletive] soft.”

  8. #2533
    Veteran R. DeMurre's Avatar
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    He got on court issue too.

    As soon as Jalen Johnson chucked a pass some 10 feet off target late in the Bellarmine game, Mike Krzyzewski said to his staff what looked to be a harsh four-word description for the frustrating uber-athlete, including one particularly harsh four-letter word. It doesn’t take a lip-reading expert to decipher from the telecast what the 41st-year Duke chief appeared to note to his crew:
    “He’s so [expletive] soft.”
    Well, one could read that either way, to be honest. That's a ty thing for a coach to say during a game, and I imagine if you asked Coach K now, he'd probably agree. The same thing has happened with Steve Kerr and Draymond, so who knows... I generally like Coach K, but he's not beyond reproach.

  9. #2534
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    Well worth watching this breakdown of an “average” Franz game.

    Although clocking in at about 2 1/2 hours (!), it really is about an hour an of analysis with the rest being a prelude, introduction of
    sorts; then a Q and A and a debate over the better prospect of Moody V Wagner to close it out.

    Analysis starts at 12:20 mark fwiw.



    There are genuine concerns raised about Franz’s ‘risk averse’ style of play including turning down open shots, shying away from contact on drives (to create advantages) and the scalability of some of his defense.

  10. #2535
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    Well, one could read that either way, to be honest. That's a ty thing for a coach to say during a game, and I imagine if you asked Coach K now, he'd probably agree. The same thing has happened with Steve Kerr and Draymond, so who knows... I generally like Coach K, but he's not beyond reproach.
    Kryzewski has one job: putting a winning squad on the floor. That does not cover coddling highly recruited athletes. He actually has a reputation as a hards ass in his college coaching role. He did, after all, attend the USMA, AKA ARMY. If the Johnsons didn’t understand that, or do their due diligence, that’s on them. If they wanted the cream puff hands off approach, coach Cal at UK would have been happy to oblige

  11. #2536
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    Well, one could read that either way, to be honest. That's a ty thing for a coach to say during a game, and I imagine if you asked Coach K now, he'd probably agree. The same thing has happened with Steve Kerr and Draymond, so who knows... I generally like Coach K, but he's not beyond reproach.
    Jim Boeheim on Jalen Johnson

    "That guy was hurting them so they are much better without him. He was just doing some things and keeping others from playing that are good"

  12. #2537
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    He got on court issue too.

    [FONT="]As soon as Jalen Johnson chucked a pass some 10 feet off target late in the Bellarmine game, Mike Krzyzewski said to his staff what looked to be a harsh four-word description for the frustrating uber-athlete, including one particularly harsh four-letter word. It doesn’t take a lip-reading expert to decipher from the telecast what the 41st-year Duke chief appeared to note to his crew:[/FONT]
    “He’s so [expletive] soft.”
    He's also a horrific shooter and lazy in all points of his game. He'll play hard, then give up, most notably on defense. Just disinterested. The guy has a lot of issues to bet on.

  13. #2538
    Veteran R. DeMurre's Avatar
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    Well worth watching this breakdown of an “average” Franz game.

    Although clocking in at about 2 1/2 hours (!), it really is about an hour an of analysis with the rest being a prelude, introduction of
    sorts; then a Q and A and a debate over the better prospect of Moody V Wagner to close it out.

    Analysis starts at 12:20 mark fwiw.



    There are genuine concerns raised about Franz’s ‘risk averse’ style of play including turning down open shots, shying away from contact on drives (to create advantages) and the scalability of some of his defense.
    Ben Pfeifer was really high on Devin Vassell last year, and at one point even had him at #1: https://twitter.com/ben_pfeifer_/sta...91653902053378
    He's much higher on Jaden Springer this year than most, which is another interesting take.

    He later amended the Vassell pick a little, but still raved about his defensive potential: https://www.thebirdwrites.com/2020/1...urton-pelicans

    Whether it's Wagner, Springer, or Moody I'll be happy to see the Spurs returning to a defense first philosophy.
    Last edited by R. DeMurre; 07-04-2021 at 04:19 PM.

  14. #2539
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    The Thunder are definitely going international:

    https://www.nba.com/thunder/story/united-nations-210701

  15. #2540
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    https://www.nba.com/pelicans/

    Jalen Johnson combine interview.

    Mentions he's interviewed with 12~ teams, lists eight: Raptors, Hawks, Pacers, Magic, Rockets, Knicks, Timberwolves, Wizards

    In this interview, he says he's "going to do what's best for me and my family". I don't know how anyone could listen to him say those words and not consider it a huge red flag. But it's 'Murica and we're all about instant gratification in this country. They see talent and they go, "durrrrr I want that".

    While I recognize his talent (Tier 3 in my list) and would be fine with the Spurs selecting him since they're usually thorough with their process-- I'm not going to downplay what's clearly a pattern of unusual behavior.

  16. #2541
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    https://www.nba.com/pelicans/

    Jalen Johnson combine interview.

    Mentions he's interviewed with 12~ teams, lists eight: Raptors, Hawks, Pacers, Magic, Rockets, Knicks, Timberwolves, Wizards

    In this interview, he says he's "going to do what's best for me and my family". I don't know how anyone could listen to him say those words and not consider it a huge red flag. But it's 'Murica and we're all about instant gratification in this country. They see talent and they go, "durrrrr I want that".

    While I recognize his talent (Tier 3 in my list) and would be fine with the Spurs selecting him since they're usually thorough with their process-- I'm not going to downplay what's clearly a pattern of unusual behavior.
    Not even mentioning Kawhi, that's just a crater right there, going with his behavior so far. I'm feeling a really strong chance he drops out of the lottery, even into the 20s. Just bad news.

  17. #2542
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    Not even mentioning Kawhi, that's just a crater right there, going with his behavior so far. I'm feeling a really strong chance he drops out of the lottery, even into the 20s. Just bad news.
    It's the favorite quote of every NBA player ever who has switched teams in their career.

  18. #2543
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    I don’t anticipate the spurs taking Jalen Johnson, but the talent is there for something special. Can’t wait for the spurs to draft Davion Mitc so everyone’s head can explode lol

  19. #2544
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    https://www.nba.com/pelicans/

    Jalen Johnson combine interview.

    Mentions he's interviewed with 12~ teams, lists eight: Raptors, Hawks, Pacers, Magic, Rockets, Knicks, Timberwolves, Wizards

    In this interview, he says he's "going to do what's best for me and my family". I don't know how anyone could listen to him say those words and not consider it a huge red flag. But it's 'Murica and we're all about instant gratification in this country. They see talent and they go, "durrrrr I want that".

    While I recognize his talent (Tier 3 in my list) and would be fine with the Spurs selecting him since they're usually thorough with their process-- I'm not going to downplay what's clearly a pattern of unusual behavior.
    Yea, the more I hear (or read) him talk the more it makes me want to pass...he's falling on my board..

  20. #2545
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    Jalen Johnson will probably a career journey man until he fizzles out of the league and plays overseas.

  21. #2546
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    I watched the Jalen Johnson draft combine interview and I didn’t think it was that bad. He didn’t wow me or anything, but he didn’t make me think he was a bad guy either. Just an average interview.

  22. #2547
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    Ben Pfeifer was really high on Devin Vassell last year, and at one point even had him at #1: https://twitter.com/ben_pfeifer_/sta...91653902053378
    He's much higher on Jaden Springer this year than most, which is another interesting take.

    He later amended the Vassell pick a little, but still raved about his defensive potential: https://www.thebirdwrites.com/2020/1...urton-pelicans

    Whether it's Wagner, Springer, or Moody I'll be happy to see the Spurs returning to a defense first philosophy.
    Great stuff .

    They think Franz is technically and tactically so well versed that they suggest he has trouble with spontaneity and diverging from set paths as a result (when it may be required).

    Lots of Spurs-y refs. in the video.

    Spoiler alert (from the vid).

    The Good:

    - Tremendous Off-ball defender technically. Head always on a swivel.
    - Team first guy.
    - Coach's dream.

    Most of what I've seen and read suggests that he's the ultimate glue guy in the draft (when you take into account his ceiling and becoming a consistent 3 point threat).
    ( They do make the case though, a team has to put Franz in a certain situation/position to maximize his skill set).

    The question I have though, Are we at a stage in the Spurs rebuild timeline where we should take a guy (in the lottery), whose best case projections are a starting adhesive?

    By no means am I trying to slander Franz as a prospect btw just have my doubts if that's in the team's best interest long term.
    Last edited by PhantomDashCam; 07-04-2021 at 07:16 PM.

  23. #2548
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    Great stuff .

    They think Franz is technically and tactically so well versed that they suggest he has trouble with spontaneity and diverging from set paths as a result (when it may be required).

    Lots of Spurs-y refs. in the video.

    Spoiler alert (from the vid).

    The Good:

    - Tremendous Off-ball defender technically. Head always on a swivel.
    - Team first guy.
    - Coach's dream.

    Most of what I've seen and read suggests that he's the ultimate glue guy in the draft (when you take into account his ceiling and becoming a consistent 3 point threat).
    ( They do make the case though, a team has to put Franz in a certain situation/position to maximize his skill set).

    The question I have though, Are we at a stage in the Spurs rebuild timeline where we should take a guy (in the lottery), whose best case projections are a starting adhesive?

    By no means am I meaning to slander Franz as a prospect btw just have my doubts if that's in the team's best interest long term.
    Sounds like the same criticism people had for Kawhi. You don't bet against someone continuously adding to their game.

    https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sp...ay/4143577001/

    “Those blocks on their shooters, those blocks on protecting the basket, it was just inspiring,” Howard said. “His level of being locked on the attention to detail, locked in on the scouting report, studying his opponent, knowing their tendencies — the guy is an architect.”

    “As his game is growing, he's looking like, 'Man, I can really get stops. I can really defend. I can really score the ball at all three levels.' Now it's fun to him because he's doing some things he wasn't doing previously and now he's seeing his game expand. We're the beneficiaries of it because he has that giving spirit and because he's willing to sacrifice and do it on both ends of the floor. He just wants to impact winning.”

    Senior guard Eli Brooks and Brown have experienced similar struggles against Wagner in practice. Brown noted Wagner’s long arms, lateral footwork and ability to “beat you to the spot” make it tough to score against him, while Brooks said Wagner has done a better job of defending without fouling and making opponents score over his length.

  24. #2549
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    Great stuff .

    They think Franz is technically and tactically so well versed that they suggest he has trouble with spontaneity and diverging from set paths as a result (when it may be required).

    Lots of Spurs-y refs. in the video.

    Spoiler alert (from the vid).

    The Good:

    - Tremendous Off-ball defender technically. Head always on a swivel.
    - Team first guy.
    - Coach's dream.

    Most of what I've seen and read suggests that he's the ultimate glue guy in the draft (when you take into account his ceiling and becoming a consistent 3 point threat).
    ( They do make the case though, a team has to put Franz in a certain situation/position to maximize his skill set).

    The question I have though, Are we at a stage in the Spurs rebuild timeline where we should take a guy (in the lottery), whose best case projections are a starting adhesive?

    By no means am I meaning to slander Franz as a prospect btw just have my doubts if that's in the team's best interest long term.
    If I agreed that being a 'starting adhesive' was a best case projection then I'd see your point. I believe that being a 'starting adhesive' is his floor. I believe his ceiling is a perennial allstar. He has two things that are vitally important that he masters to reach that though, 1) his outside shot (and I'm fairly confident that will come along fine) and 2) an alpha mentality, which I'm not nearly as confident about. He's gotta have that dog mentality if he's to reach the ceiling I have for him. If he can find that in himself he's the steal of this draft.

  25. #2550
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    Fair enough.
    Thanks for the responses.

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